1st rifle for grandson

[clockwork_7mm_gator]

I going to suggest against the .243. It's a fine caliber. This is going to be used for elk hunting occasionally. Will a .243 kill an elk? Sure it will. Is it ideal for the job? I dare say 95+% of us wouldn't reach for our trusty .243 if we were going elk hunting. There are far better tools out there. Lets help set this young man up for success with a rifle he can continue to use for many years.
I say this having killed close to 50 elk in my life and being around/in on that many more. They are big animals. Enough preaching. YMMV.
Bruce

Gillette -- I don't really hunt elk, so my rec of the 243 is really as a deer round, and I would generally agree with you. Recently, though, a friend sent me a picture of an elk killed with the 85 grain Trophy Coppers... the bullet stayed almost perfectly intact and just devastated the lungs.

 

[ActionBob]

If you want to go Classic, a 6.5x55 or 7x57 (275 Rigby) or even a 30-06 with low recoil loads (at least a couple manufacturers make factory downloaded ammo with about 125 grain bullets, very effective on deer). All those you should be able to find ammo, if not, and for a kid, I'll send you a box or two

More modern, the 7mm-08 is a great option. I have a dandy little Ruger Mark II compact/youth gun with fine walnut and blued steel as God intended rifles to be. I also have a 6.5 Creedmoor (Manbun) and love shooting it. In fact it is my truck gun for coyotes or wood chucks, porcupines, skunks and if in season and I need, can pop a deer with it. Look up something like the Hornady factory ammo ballistic chart and compare the 243, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 308. If I remember correctly, the Creedmoor carries twice the foot pounds of energy out to 500 yards as a 243. and does so with close to the same energy as a 308 but with less drop and less windage correction than a 308. And shooting a Creedmoor feels a lot more like a 243 than a 308. That in essence is what all the hoopla is about!

I have the equipment but haven't set it up yet to start handloading. I'm sure the venerable old classic Swede is capable of everything the Creedmoor is. Just perhaps not in as much selection of factory ammo.

I do think with the proper ammo a Creedmoor is capable of taking an elk, especially a cow. The Swede is apparently used on Moose in Scandinavia. I took my first (and second) Creedmoor to Africa. on that first hunt, my PH Mark, was the guy who guided the Hornady people when they first took the Creedmoor out to prove it as a hunting round. He was very impressed, especially with the Interbond 129 grain bullet. I believe they shot a kudu and eland... Although Mark thought it was a bit light for eland.... On a few longer walks looking for whatever Africa offered up, he would say "why don't you bring the Creedmoor". The first such comment, I asked what if we see a good kudu.... Mark shrugged his shoulders and said, "shoot it with the Creedmoor"!

 

[clockwork_7mm_gator]

If you want to go Classic, a 6.5x55 or 7x57 (275 Rigby) or even a 30-06 with low recoil loads (at least a couple manufacturers make factory downloaded ammo with about 125 grain bullets, very effective on deer). All those you should be able to find ammo, if not, and for a kid, I'll send you a box or two

More modern, the 7mm-08 is a great option. I have a dandy little Ruger Mark II compact/youth gun with fine walnut and blued steel as God intended rifles to be. I also have a 6.5 Creedmoor (Manbun) and love shooting it. In fact it is my truck gun for coyotes or wood chucks, porcupines, skunks and if in season and I need, can pop a deer with it. Look up something like the Hornady factory ammo ballistic chart and compare the 243, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 308. If I remember correctly, the Creedmoor carries twice the foot pounds of energy out to 500 yards as a 243. and does so with close to the same energy as a 308 but with less drop and less windage correction than a 308. And shooting a Creedmoor feels a lot more like a 243 than a 308. That in essence is what all the hoopla is about!

I have the equipment but haven't set it up yet to start handloading. I'm sure the venerable old classic Swede is capable of everything the Creedmoor is. Just perhaps not in as much selection of factory ammo.

I do think with the proper ammo a Creedmoor is capable of taking an elk, especially a cow. The Swede is apparently used on Moose in Scandinavia. I took my first (and second) Creedmoor to Africa. on that first hunt, my PH Mark, was the guy who guided the Hornady people when they first took the Creedmoor out to prove it as a hunting round. He was very impressed, especially with the Interbond 129 grain bullet. I believe they shot a kudu and eland... Although Mark thought it was a bit light for eland.... On a few longer walks looking for whatever Africa offered up, he would say "why don't you bring the Creedmoor". The first such comment, I asked what if we see a good kudu.... Mark shrugged his shoulders and said, "shoot it with the Creedmoor"!

I know why Hornady stopped loading factory ammo with the 129 Interbond, but it's still a major bummer.

 

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

I would definitely look at the 308. Cheap ammo on every shelf anywhere that sells ammo. I would shoot any animal up to moose or eland with the Barnes 130 gr TTSX. It has noticeable less recoil than 150s and shoots flat enough to aim at the vitals to as far as most of us should shoot.

I like the short handy guns for young people, but they are loud as others have said. So I’d probably at least have a 20 inch barrel. I think a good idea is to put a really good pad on. Most of the factory ones are nothing special. I like the limbsaver, but there are other good ones that may last longer. I also like a Monte Carlo stock as I believe, as they recoil it is easier on the cheek.

 

[ActionBob]

I know why Hornady stopped loading factory ammo with the 129 Interbond, but it's still a major bummer.

I had great performance out of that bullet on African critters. Blew a nice hole with spectacular blood spray through the shoulders of a red hartebeest Saving my stock and using SST and Interloc for coyotes and deer....

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

A lot of good suggestions, I would only add getting something that he can shoot accurately. Price, name, heritage, etc., mean nothing if a hunting rifle isn't able to put five shots in 1/2 to 1 moa at 100 yards.
The Weatherby Youth and the Thompson Center Compass Compact are a couple options with guaranteed accuracy..

@Hogpatrol
Howa and Savage don't give such garruntees but will do the same out of the box. The Weatherby vanguard is nothing more than a rebadged Howa that started life as a copy of a Sako.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Howa model 1500 same as a Weatherby Vanguard is also a much under rated rifle, no plastic parts, adjustable trigger, Hammer forged barrel, M16 style extractor conventional
opening floor plate, a quality built rifle. i do not sell them, i think they are the best of the economy rifles.
View attachment 421381

@rdog
After taking my son to the gunshop to choose. He narrowed it down to the vanguard S2 and the howa with the Hogue stock. The howa fit him like a glove so that's what he got in 308. He had been to a couple of SSAA junior shooting camps beforehand. I asked him if he wanted a 243 or 308. I won't tell you what he said about the 243 after using one at camp but let's say luckily his mother wasn't around or he would still be eating soap.
Love his 308.
Bob

 

[Dr Ray]

Bob!!
6.5 is truly great cartridge and I agree for bigger game such as deer. I think the 6.5 is excellent. I am suggesting the 243 for lack of recoil.
The beginner should be able to handle the 308/30/06/270 but the recoil is getting up there a tad.

 

[BeeMaa]

Bob!!
6.5 is truly great cartridge and I agree for bigger game such as deer. I think the 6.5 is excellent. I am suggesting the 243 for lack of recoil.
The beginner should be able to handle the 308/30/06/270 but the recoil is getting up there a tad.

If you do the 30-06 or 270WIN with reduced power loads, the lad should be fine. Work up with lots of pellet/BB rifle practice, followed by 22lr and then a few shots with the centerfire. Build up slowly and the results will be in the pudding. There are no shortcuts to shooting well. The marksman needs to put in the time.

 

[rdog]

@Hogpatrol
Howa and Savage don't give such garruntees but will do the same out of the box. The Weatherby vanguard is nothing more than a rebadged Howa that started life as a copy of a Sako.
Bob

I think you are expecting too much half MOA from light barrel sporting rifle for 5 shots it
would take a exceptional rifle , shooter , and ammo to do that , barrel heat from a light barrel is against you, heavy barrel match rifles with high power optics struggle to do it.

 

[Hogpatrol]

I think you are expecting too much half MOA from light barrel sporting rifle for 5 shots it
would take a exceptional rifle , shooter , and ammo to do that , barrel heat from a light barrel is against you, heavy barrel match rifles with high power optics struggle to do it.

To clarify, if one uses the procedure of one shot, cold dirty bore, put the gun in the rack until at ambient temperature, rinse and repeat. Five shots in 1" or less is easily doable with a good load and an accurate skinny barrel, including the heavy magnums. On the other hand, rattling off five quick ones through a fire breather isn't conducive to good groups.

 

[Mekaniks]

I would consider starting him with a 30-30 open sites, lever action, and let him learn to shoot and hunt before he moves up to scoped larger rifle.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob!!
6.5 is truly great cartridge and I agree for bigger game such as deer. I think the 6.5 is excellent. I am suggesting the 243 for lack of recoil.
The beginner should be able to handle the 308/30/06/270 but the recoil is getting up there a tad.

@Dr Ray
They might be alright with an 85 grain projectile.
Bob

I think you are expecting too much half MOA from light barrel sporting rifle for 5 shots it
would take a exceptional rifle , shooter , and ammo to do that , barrel heat from a light barrel is against you, heavy barrel match rifles with high power optics struggle to do it.

@rdog
My son's bog standard Howa 308 with its pet handload of 50 grains of CFE223 and a 150gn accubond will group less than half inch every day with 5 shots, and I don't regard myself as anything special. He can smack 600ml drink bottles regularly with it at a lasered 400 yards with it as well using 150gn SSTs
Bob

 

[rdog]

To clarify, if one uses the procedure of one shot, cold dirty bore, put the gun in the rack until at ambient temperature, rinse and repeat. Five shots in 1" or less is easily doable with a good load and an accurate skinny barrel, including the heavy magnums. On the other hand, rattling off five quick ones through a fire breather isn't conducive to good groups.

Well may be,

@Dr Ray
They might be alright with an 85 grain projectile.
Bob

@rdog
My son's bog standard Howa 308 with its pet handload of 50 grains of CFE223 and a 150gn accubond will group less than half inch every day with 5 shots, and I don't regard myself as anything special. He can smack 600ml drink bottles regularly with it at a lasered 400 yards with it as well using 150gn SSTs
Bob

I would like to see that. Bob What stock is on the Howa?
are going to clean after every shot out hunting?

 

[rdog]

My kids are way too young to start shooting/hunting, but that hasn't stopped me from agonizing over these decisions! I think it's hard to go wrong with a 708... especially for larger game and 140 monos. I'm a huge fan of the M70 FWT (I hunt with one in 280 and have one in 6.5cm put away for the kids) but if you haven't hunted with them before, it's important to keep in mind that they aren't really lighter than the sporter models, the stock is just contoured differently and the barrel possibly a little shorter. I.e., they're nowhere near as light as some of the compact/youth models you see from Remington or Weatherby. I've also got a .243 M100 that will likely be the first deer rifle any of them use, because it'll mitigate recoil even more than a bolt gun... BUT if you go the 243, I would avoid the youth Rugers with the super short barrel. They are L-O-U-D and I think a lot of times the noise has more to do with spooking kids than the actual recoil. Just my 2 cents... which might not even be worth that much!

PS - I've fantasized about 6.5x55 and 7x57 for the kids, but I'm thinking it'll be a win if I can just get them all excited about the outdoors... and not assuming I can turn them all into rifle nuts... so I've tried to avoid less common chamberings for them.

I have two sons whom i turned into rifle nuts they both have more rifles than me

 

[VonJager]

7mm-08 is less recoil, than comparable ballistic calibers, and the only trade off for elk is keep it within 300 yards, which with a first time hunter, you probably will anyway. Or should anyway.

My wife did not like my .270 but shoots a 7mm-08 great.

Has the kid done any shooting yet?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well may be,

I would like to see that. Bob What stock is on the Howa?
are going to clean after every shot out hunting?

@rdog
Hogue stock and still hasn't been cleaned after 300 rounds of ammo. Due for a clean soon. That cfe223 really keeps the copper at bay.
Bob

 

[Dr Ray]

I would consider starting him with a 30-30 open sites, lever action, and let him learn to shoot and hunt before he moves up to scoped larger rifle.

Good point

 

[rdog]

@rdog
Hogue stock and still hasn't been cleaned after 300 rounds of ammo. Due for a clean soon. That cfe223 really keeps the copper at bay.
Bob

What about carbon fowling ? i could not sleep at night with out cleaning my rifle I think
the Army is responsible for that

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

What about carbon fowling ? i could not sleep at night with out cleaning my rifle I think
the Army is responsible for that

@rdog
Don't have to worry about the carbon on the operating rod or gas reg mate it ain't got them.
I do run a nylon brush down the bore a few times and give it a wipe out with INOX before putting it away.
The army has a lot of bad habits they ground into us for no good reason but that's life in the military.
The good one like hurry up and wait is a total SNAFU. It just makes the NCOs happy to treat recruits like total fuckups.
Bob