1st rifle for grandson

[hawkeyesatx]

You may also know, if you've hunted enough, that poorly placed headshots break jaws or skip off the skull and animals run off crippled. So many hunters are focused on the follow through and not the follow up shot. Don't ever think the first round has it done.

I was going to say the same exact thing, you just beat me to it.

What if you do a neck shot that knocks them out like a heavyweight boxer hitting his opponent, knocks them down, but not out, and you walk up to an injured elk, dazed, and confused, and then suddenly comes to, and you are 3 to 6 feet away? What do you think that elk will do? If it’s a big bull, you’ve got 600 - 700 lbs of pissed off animal, and probably won’t hesitate to gore you with it’s antlers, and then trample you. Maybe, if you’re lucky, it just tramples you. But remember, you have your grandson there with you. He’ll more than likely get trampled too.
Don’t think it can’t happen.
A big mule deer did exactly that same thing to a hunter, and killed him last year. And that was just a mule deer!
Always best to take a heart/shoulder shot! And USE ENOUGH GUN!
I wouldn’t go having a new hunter hunting elk, using a .243, or even a .25-06, I think you’re asking for trouble if you do.
7mm-08 the minimum, but I would prefer they use a .270 Win, because it has more oomph than the 7mm-08, and 7x57mm.
But hey! What do I know?!?


Hawk

 

[crs]

CBH Australia,
We now have Sambar here in Texas on some Parks And Wildlife property. There is an annual drawing to hunt them on a coastal island and I always buy a ticket but have not won the hunt as yet. From what I have read, the bulls weigh up to 400 pounds which puts them up into the lower weight of North American elk. Elk weigh 700 - 1100 pounds , so are a bit bigger. My biggest Bull elk was this 6 pointer taken in Colorado with my .338 and no way to weigh it. Had to cut it up to get it down the mountain.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Remember this is about a12 year old grandson, suggesting head shots and to a certain extent neck shots (for me anyway), should never enter the conversation.

Bingo. You're dealing with a junior hunter that has not polished the kill instinct yet and marksmanship and emotional management are developing also.

I was going to say the same exact thing, you just beat me to it.

What if you do a neck shot that knocks them out like a heavyweight boxer hitting his opponent, knocks them down, but not out, and you walk up to an injured elk, dazed, and confused, and then suddenly comes to, and you are 3 to 6 feet away? What do you think that elk will do? If it’s a big bull, you’ve got 600 - 700 lbs of pissed off animal, and probably won’t hesitate to gore you with it’s antlers, and then trample you. Maybe, if you’re lucky, it just tramples you. But remember, you have your grandson there with you. He’ll more than likely get trampled too.
Don’t think it can’t happen.
A big mule deer did exactly that same thing to a hunter, and killed him last year. And that was just a mule deer!
Always best to take a heart/shoulder shot! And USE ENOUGH GUN!
I wouldn’t go having a new hunter hunting elk, using a .243, or even a .25-06, I think you’re asking for trouble if you do.
7mm-08 the minimum, but I would prefer they use a .270 Win, because it has more oomph than the 7mm-08, and 7x57mm.
But hey! What do I know?!?


Hawk

Well Hawk, he'll get an up close and personal look at the devil inside me.

I prefer that a young hunter have enough power to their rifle that the game is dead by the time they arrive beside it. I think the image of a suffering animal should not be one a new hunter sees first hand for a while. When they see it, they should be seeing an experienced hunter working actively to end that suffering. They need to learn that commitment and the unhesitating controlled aggression required to see it through. There is also a need to communicate with the members of the hunting party about intent to fire our weapons and movement around wounded or downed game. The new hunter might get the urge to be helpful and ease the pain and suffering independently. Then we may have a series of rapid unexpected discharges not fully thought out with regard to safe direction and back stop. The new hunter doesn't yet understand the delay in cessation of life functions and I at least, as a young hunter, had a habit of shooting a whole lot to end them.

New guy...Elk....30-06 or .35. Something that lands with authority and has a shot at putting them down in a multitude of shot angles and circumstances. No head shots, neck shots, long shots or trick shots required.

I dunno what you know, I'm just bum from off the streets...LOL

 

[hawkeyesatx]

Bingo. You're dealing with a junior hunter that has not polished the kill instinct yet and marksmanship and emotional management are developing also.

Well Hawk, he'll get an up close and personal look at the devil inside me.

I prefer that a young hunter have enough power to their rifle that the game is dead by the time they arrive beside it. I think the image of a suffering animal should not be one a new hunter sees first hand for a while. When they see it, they should be seeing an experienced hunter working actively to end that suffering. They need to learn that commitment and the unhesitating controlled aggression required to see it through. There is also a need to communicate with the members of the hunting party about intent to fire our weapons and movement around wounded or downed game. The new hunter might get the urge to be helpful and ease the pain and suffering independently. Then we may have a series of rapid unexpected discharges not fully thought out with regard to safe direction and back stop. The new hunter doesn't yet understand the delay in cessation of life functions and I at least, as a young hunter, had a habit of shooting a whole lot to end them.

New guy...Elk....30-06 or .35. Something that lands with authority and has a shot at putting them down in a multitude of shot angles and circumstances. No head shots, neck shots, long shots or trick shots required.

I dunno what you know, I'm just bum from off the streets...LOL

LOL I was thinking worst case scenario.
But it can happen. It’s happened to friends I know. Not that they got trampled, or gored. But darn it, if that elk didn’t get up when they neck shot it, and did so within only a few feet.

I’m a firm believer in using the most gun one can handle proficiently. .270 and .30-06 are definitely enough gun, in my book.

Hawk

 

[Forrest Halley]

LOL I was thinking worst case scenario.
But it can happen. It’s happened to friends I know. Not that they got trampled, or gored. But darn it, if that elk didn’t get up when they neck shot it, and did so within only a few feet.

I’m a firm believer in using the most gun one can handle proficiently. .270 and .30-06 are definitely enough gun, in my book.

Hawk

Well I didn't think an elk would go full on bananas like black death with antlers. We did not consider the fact that a predator could come in in the kill site and the young hunter might not want to be hiding behind a pop gun. A .30-06 or .308 appeals a lot more at that point.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You may also know, if you've hunted enough, that poorly placed headshots break jaws or skip off the skull and animals run off crippled. So many hunters are focused on the follow through and not the follow up shot. Don't ever think the first round has it done.

@Forrest Halley
As I told my son in Namibia If'n it still standing keep shooting, fortunately 98% were one and done.
I personally hate headshots because all the animal has to do is move its head when you pull the trigger and your screwed.
Bob

 

[Dakota Hunter]

A 308 with reduced recoil loads or a 7-08 would be tough to beat but so would a 30-06 with reduced recoil loads.My son is 12 and weighs under 100 pounds and he shoots his 30-06 Browning A Bolt II very well !

 

[Tra3]

Of the 17 elk I’ve been involved in taking, 4 were taken with a .270, 5 with a 7 rem mag, 3 with the .30-06, 4 with a .300 WM and 1 with a 6.5 CM.
The 6.5 CM was very light and required multiple shots on a bull I took 3 years ago. It was not my first choice, but I had a scope failure and had to change rifles.
The other rifles had similar results with the other calibers being sufficiently adequate in my opinion.
One big cow took 3 shots in the lungs with the 7 mag from 200 yards, I could not tell she had been hit until she turned and I saw steam coming out of both sides. All 3 shots were within a few inches and were pass-throughs. The first shot would have worked, but I’ve learned to keep shooting until the animal is down.
Elk hunting requires graduating to a bigger caliber, so a starter gun like a 6.5 CM will work, but should be changed out as soon as the young hunter can increase in recoil tolerance.

 

[CBH Australia]

I asked the wife of a Colorado elk outfitter whet rifle she used for elk and where she shot them. Her answer was ----
I shoot them behind the ear with my .243.

Did you ask her how many ran off after she shot them?

Nope,
my daughter and my wife shoot that well, so why not a lady that does it all the time?

My son, age 13, hunted a blue wildebeest in SA with a .243. One shot in the front shoulder......

I'm not saying that a 243 won't kill animals with a proper placed shot but I do have issues with where some might choose to shoot that animal.

I was once told by a brown bear outfitter that he would rather I brought a rifle in a caliber that I could shoot very well rather than one that I couldn't.

IMO -

If an elk is in the mix, then the .308 (start with reduced recoil) or at least the 7-08.

Really?

If you have hunted enough you might see that a well placed headshot kills stuff dead.
No, I haven't seen an Elk but I've shot a lot of stuff and seen a lot die, especially from headshots.
The Lady made a reasonable statement to @crs who, knows full well his wife and daughter can do the same.

G'day again.
@Forrest Halley and @hawkeyesatx
My comments around headshots etc were in response to the top post in this post and a post from @Jim P asking how many ran off. (Probably none) hit right where described they

All please take a look at the bottom paragraph of the bottom quoted post.


Head shots have their merits. I don't hunt Elk or Sambar but all things being equal I'm not suggesting .243 for anyone except for stirring Bob's pot.

I think a reduced load in .308 for the young fella or at least a 7mm-08.

Im still backing the original post by @crs and his response because his wife and daughter are also capable shooters and probably use discretion when taking shots assessing the individual shot and situation.

 

[Berettaco]

Here is some info I gathered for low recoil rifle cartridges that could be used for elk. Most of all the cartridges suggested in previous comments would be great choices.

Info retrieved from Hornady Ballistics Charts and Chuckhawks recoil table.

Assumption 1 - that 1,300 ft/lbs is minimum required energy for bullet expansion and penetration with correctly placed shot on elk.

Assumption 2 - I listed 200 yard performance as shot distance should be limited to <200 yards for new hunter.

Assumption 3 - rifle cartridge selected should allow for shot distance to increase over time making the cartridge more versatile.

Assumption 4 - cartridge performance can be improved upon - using published data for this comparison.

Assumption 5 - felt recoil can be reduced with properly fitted stock/pad and weight of rifle.

I listed 139 & 140 grain bullet weights for side by side comparison - 308 & 30-06 have 150 grain bullet data listed.



7x57. 12 lbs of recoil with 139 grain bullet. 1774 ft lbs at 200 yards.
Max effective range 400 yards - 1314 ft/lbs energy



7mm-08. 13lbs recoil with 139 grain bullet. 2042 ft lbs at 200 yards.
Max effective range 500 yards with 1311 Ft/lbs energy



6.5CM. 13 lbs recoil with 140 grain bullet. 1773 ft lbs at 200 yards. Max effective range 400 yards - 1379 ft/lbs energy



308 Win. 16 lbs recoil with 150 grain bullet. 2176 ft/lbs at 200.
Max effective range >400 (1543 ft/lbs at 400 drops to 1287 at 500). **Could not find 140gr bullet data on Hornady***


.270 win. 17 lbs recoil with 140 grain bullet. 2042 Ft/lbs energy at 200 yards.
Max effective range 500 yards - 1310 ft/lbs energy



280 Rem. 17 lbs recoil with 139 grain bullet. 2250 ft lbs at 200 yards. Max effective range >500 - (1459 ft/lbs @500)



30-06. 18 lbs recoil with 150 grain bullet. 2300 ft/lbs energy at 200. Max effective range 500 - 1370 ft/lbs energy. **could not find 140gr bullet data on Hornady***

 

[Cam Moon]

@Hunt anything I agree head shots are not something that really needs to be discussed when the conversation is about a 12 year old just beginning to hunt. I think where the conversation went sideways is from people wanting to help, but having different opinions. I would venture to guess that nobody who has posted on here feels that a .243 is the best elk rifle on the planet. Nor do I think that they truly feel it's the wisest thing ever for a 12 year old who is just starting out hunting to be focused on perfecting headshots above any other skill.
The problem lies with finding a rifle that is suitable for elk, but that the young lad is comfortable shooting. A lot of people don't handle recoil well (myself included) and having to use something the likes of a 30-06 may very well put them off from hunting altogether. (As could having a wounded animal not be recovered or having to watch it suffer because not enough gun is used). So what do you do?
Have him use something he is comfortable with and can shoot quite accurately, but may not have enough energy to do the job?
Or have him shoot something powerful enough for the job, but too powerful for him?
Now maybe this youngster isn't put off at all by recoil, in which case a 30-06 is REALLY tough to beat for an all around rifle. But if he IS recoil sensitive then I have another suggestion....although he and Grandpa may not like it!
Don't hunt elk.
Yup. I said it. Sorry. But he will have years ahead of him to hunt, so why rush it? Get good.....(REALLY good) with a nice deer rifle that doesn't make him flinch, and hunt deer for a few years. Then, in the future move in to something bigger. And try to build up that tolerance for recoil!
(I could share what I did, but I really wouldn't recommend it. LOL)
If elk is a must right out of the gate, I have heard good things about the 7mm-08.
Another good idea for any recoil sensitive shooter may be the reduced recoil loads. There seems to be more and more calibers available with reduced loads, and that may be an excellent way to get a young hunter to feel confident and sure of his or her rifle, and regular loads can be introduced as their experience dictates.

 

[Stephen Ausband]

Ahhh, you may have guessed by now that it is possible (and fun) to WAYYY overthink this kind of choice. Anything from .243 on up (I prefer up) will be just fine. We got my middle granddaughter a 7mm-08 when she turned 13, and she has taken several deer and a couple of wild hogs with it. The gun is an inexpensive Savage, the load is a 140 grain federal factory load, and everything works just fine. She may buy a much more expensive rifle some day, but for a 13-15 year-old girl learning to love to hunt and love the outdoors, this was just fine. The recoil is light, the accuracy is surprisingly good, and the terminal effects are certainly adequate. (OK; these are not "trophy" animals, but I couldn't resist posting pictures of my grandkid. So there.)

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Berettaco the minimum recommended energy for Elk is 1500 ft/lbs at point of impact, for Whitetail Deer it is 1000 ft/lbs. These are off the Colorado parks and wildlife website and well supported in other online hunting discussions.

Very cool all the work done with the free recoil and effective ranges though. It goes to show that our choices aren't so far apart in reality. Aside from a particular caliber already in the stable, the choice is very clear to the 7-08 or .30-06. The other calibers are just a waste of time. I got around 1800 ft-lbs at 200 yards for the -08 not the nearly 2100. I think that the .30-06 could be a clear winner loaded with a 130gr Barnes TTSX. Seeing as you can load 3200 fps with various powders and 3300 with one or two. As Jim Neighbors would say, "Shazam!"

@Cam Moon I admire your ethics. You make tough choices because they are the right choices.

Some very good cases being made for the 7-08...I too have heard it's quite accurate and from the ballistics tables it beats the manbun (which appears artificially supported with readily available cutting edge bullet technology). The 7-08 and the 130 gr handloaded '06 are both above 1500 ft lbs to 350 yards.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Berettaco the minimum recommended energy for Elk is 1500 ft/lbs at point of impact, for Whitetail Deer it is 1000 ft/lbs. These are off the Colorado parks and wildlife website and well supported in other online hunting discussions.

Very cool all the work done with the free recoil and effective ranges though. It goes to show that our choices aren't so far apart in reality. Aside from a particular caliber already in the stable, the choice is very clear to the 7-08 or .30-06. The other calibers are just a waste of time. I got around 1800 ft-lbs at 200 yards for the -08 not the nearly 2100. I think that the .30-06 could be a clear winner loaded with a 130gr Barnes TTSX. Seeing as you can load 3200 fps with various powders and 3300 with one or two. As Jim Neighbors would say, "Shazam!"

@Cam Moon I admire your ethics. You make tough choices because they are the right choices.

Some very good cases being made for the 7-08...I too have heard it's quite accurate and from the ballistics tables it beats the manbun (which appears artificially supported with readily available cutting edge bullet technology). The 7-08 and the 130 gr handloaded '06 are both above 1500 ft lbs to 350 yards.

@Forrest Halley
Foot pounds of energy doesn't kill an animal.
A properly constructed bullet with enough momentum to reach the vitals and expand correctly is what does the job. The result is then catastrophic damage to the vital organs resulting in death.
The old 318 WR and the likes of the 45-70 may not meet the standards of foot pounds of energy required but because of the projectile construction and their momentum they will do the job of killing game well .
Bob

 

[Tra3]

Ahhh, you may have guessed by now that it is possible (and fun) to WAYYY overthink this kind of choice. Anything from .243 on up (I prefer up) will be just fine. We got my middle granddaughter a 7mm-08 when she turned 13, and she has taken several deer and a couple of wild hogs with it. The gun is an inexpensive Savage, the load is a 140 grain federal factory load, and everything works just fine. She may buy a much more expensive rifle some day, but for a 13-15 year-old girl learning to love to hunt and love the outdoors, this was just fine. The recoil is light, the accuracy is surprisingly good, and the terminal effects are certainly adequate. (OK; these are not "trophy" animals, but I couldn't resist posting pictures of my grandkid. So there.)

View attachment 423007View attachment 423008

Congratulations on investing in the next generation of hunting! At that age, each animal is a trophy. I bet those were good eating.

I would add to this conversation that we should not only being gifting a rifle to a new hunter. We should include a simple spice kit with the youth’s preferred game meat flavors and an invitation to be the first to cook and share the meat.

 

[ActionBob]

The reason I picked the 243 - low recoil but reasonably powerful
I’m not suggesting the 243 for elk
I would suggest that the young person graduate to hunting elk when he can handle a more powerful cartridge
Steady as he goes

Ray i would challenge you to shoot a 6.5x55 or 6.5 Creedmoor beside a 243 and compare shootability and recoil. Then compare ballistics.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Forrest Halley
Foot pounds of energy doesn't kill an animal.
A properly constructed bullet with enough momentum to reach the vitals and expand correctly is what does the job. The result is then catastrophic damage to the vital organs resulting in death.
The old 318 WR and the likes of the 45-70 may not meet the standards of foot pounds of energy required but because of the projectile construction and their momentum they will do the job of killing game well .
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen ,
Good Townsend "Bundy" Nelson,
I'm not sure either one will meet the recoil requirements for a young hunter, but beyond that I don't follow you. The 318 WR was slated to throw a 250gr bullet at 2400 fps. That's above the 1500 ft-lbs mark over 800 yards. The modern .45-70 throws a 500 grain bullet at 1600+ fps which makes 1500 ft-lbs at over 400 yards. Your examples are pretty good representations of good power levels as discussed in this thread. I get the real world factors that kill an animal. What I don't understand is why you think they won't meet the standard. Is this a Bundy induced conversion error between the metric system and standard?

 

[CBH Australia]

Ray i would challenge you to shoot a 6.5x55 or 6.5 Creedmoor beside a 243 and compare shootability and recoil. Then compare ballistics.

Oh, I hope the good Dr does not prescribe a 6.5 Man Bun as the remedy to cure this .

I think his next choice would be the venerable .270 and I hope that they were not chambering either Sako or Winchester model 70s in thean bun round in hunting rifle configurations.

 

[Shootist43]

Stephen Ausband, Congrats on getting your granddaughter into hunting and shooting. Mine can hardly look at a rifle and not say "yuck." How did you do it?

 

[Hogpatrol]

May have missed it in this thread but if recoil is an issue, have the rifle fitted with some sort of recoil reducing unit like a RAD.