1 MOA Hoax

I've got rifles with Jewel, Timney, sako, and many factory triggers including those on factory Tikkas. I've been hunting big game since 1971, and guided hunters for deer, antelope, aoudad, hogs for over 16 years in dry, dusty, sandy, West TX, E NM, and the TX Panhandle. I never had a trigger of any make go south, fail to fire, etc. Almost without exception, it is/was, hunter/user error when there were feeding or extraction problems and can't recall a single trigger issue, ever.

I stick to my original response..... I fail to understand why anyone would care if a fellow hunter uses a $500 Tikka or a $5000 McWhorter custom. I"d be much more concerned with the hunter knowing what he's doing with what he's got.
I’m not sure if this was meant as a reply to my post? I agree with your statement (who wouldn’t??). There were just a few comments to specific triggers and situations some hunters encountered, maybe dragged this thread a bit off the OP original topic
 
Shooting a 1" group on a range doesn't mean much IMO. Mega scope, tripod/rests, solid position, good weather, plenty of time to take the shot, etc. All it proves is that when conditions are PERFECT the rifle is capable of excellent accuracy. But what happens when things aren't that controlled. Low light, unknown distance, lousy position, little time to make the shot, cruddy weather, wandering target, etc.

Hunters should spend more time practicing placing accurate shots under hunting conditions than printing pretty groups under range conditions. Yes, proving the gun can shoot is important but once that's done it's time to prove the hunter can shoot as well as the rifle. I've helped friends track enough wounded deer to know that an accurate rifle is only a small part of the equation. I've had to track a few of my own that were shot with rifles of known accuracy. The fact a rifle can shoot sub MOA is of no value if the hunter can't shoot well under hunting conditions. It might as well be a 3MOA rifle for all the difference it makes if the hunter can't shoot unless he's on a bench.
Would expect everyone would agree with your logic - also that starting on the bench is “step one” to make sure your rifle is properly sighted before any hunting trip begins.... That way you (and your friends) will know any Miss was YOUR Fault.
 
That way you (and your friends) will know any Miss was YOUR Fault.


I have found that every time that I started to blame the scope and or rifle and I head to the bench to figure out which one it has always turned out to be the person pulling the trigger and not the rifle and or scope.
 
My friend is a real gun guru and on a recent hunt to AK he had to bring lighter fluid and long qtips to clean the Timney trigger regularly. One thing about the R8 is the trigger is fantastic right out of the box!

Hello Philip,

I’ve never owned a Timney brand or any other after-market / custom / replacement trigger.

However, in Timney’s advertisements, the photos I’ve seen show a “box” type mechanism.

For those members here, who are new to the internal mechanisms of bolt action rifles, a box trigger is one with many or most of it’s small moving parts encased between two thin sheets of metal and held in place by drift pins or small screws.

Anyway, one of my fellow Rifle Grumps, here in Alaska (Ed Marsters), told me that he never uses “box triggers” in any of his rifles.
He is concerned that ice can form within said little “trigger box”, very effectively stopping the rifle from functioning, until it can be thawed out.

I don’t recall if Ed said it has actually happened to any rifle belonging to anyone he knows.
However, it sounds like the fellow you mentioned with his long Q-Tips and lighter fluid had repeated malfunctions in our weather up here.
And so, his “box trigger” needed repeated scrubbing in the field, to keep the rifle functioning.

Either way, Ed was born and raised here in Alaska.
And, at approximately age 70 now, is a very successful, life long Alaskan big game hunter.
Since I’ve only been here 41 years, my wife calls me a “chechako” (new to Alaska).:ROFLMAO:
As such, I always listen to Ed’s advice.

The original Model ‘98 Mauser trigger and some of it’s descendants (Pre-1964 Model 70 Winchester as one example) are very fine triggers, in my personal experiences.
They are definitely not as likely to build up ice deposits, to the point of dangerous malfunction, during our plentiful freezing rain and snow weather, here during coastal Alaska hunting season.

Lighter Fluid ?
When I worked part time in a local gun shop we used, I think it was “Ronson” brand (?) lighter fluid, to scrub dirty rifle and handgun bores, before putting any newly received 2nd hand ones, out on the racks for sale.
It worked quite well, especially if after generously festooning the bore with it, then standing the weapon on its muzzle over night.
The next morning re-apply and scrub well with a bore brush.

Cheers,
Paul.

PS:

Fellow Hunters,

Regarding us rifle shooters quest for that dreaded sub-one inch 5 shot group, at 100 yards…
If a rifle is meant to shoot gophers, ground squirrels and similar tiny pests at long range, such pin point accuracy is in my own experiences, very important.

However, I have arrived at the stage in my wrinkled up old geezer years, indicating that if any scoped rifle I’m training and hunting with, is consistently hitting a coffee cup size mark at 100 yards or meters, a grapefruit size mark at 200, a gallon milk jug mark at 300 and a 5 gallon bucket mark at 400, I will continue to keep the buggy springs sagging from the weight of critters that I bag.

Cheers.
 
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Shooting a 1" group on a range doesn't mean much IMO. Mega scope, tripod/rests, solid position, good weather, plenty of time to take the shot, etc. All it proves is that when conditions are PERFECT the rifle is capable of excellent accuracy. But what happens when things aren't that controlled. Low light, unknown distance, lousy position, little time to make the shot, cruddy weather, wandering target, etc.

Hunters should spend more time practicing placing accurate shots under hunting conditions than printing pretty groups under range conditions. Yes, proving the gun can shoot is important but once that's done it's time to prove the hunter can shoot as well as the rifle. I've helped friends track enough wounded deer to know that an accurate rifle is only a small part of the equation. I've had to track a few of my own that were shot with rifles of known accuracy. The fact a rifle can shoot sub MOA is of no value if the hunter can't shoot well under hunting conditions. It might as well be a 3MOA rifle for all the difference it makes if the hunter can't shoot unless he's on a bench.
@Bonk That's why when I was teaching my son to shoot he shot off the bench to build his confidence and familiarity with his rifle.
After that target were set a variety of distances and he had to shoot at them from standing , standing supported, sitting and prone. As he improved I would call the position and target number. He had 5 seconds to assume the position, acquire the target and shoot. Yes he missed a lot to start with but got to the stage I could call the position and target and he would have it hit ACCURATELY in 5 seconds or less.
It took around 5,000 rounds of 22lr to achieve this standard but it paid off in spades.
In Namibia the game he shot was spotted, stalked and the rifle came up and game went down. The PH complemented him snd me an his shooting abilities tat seemed so fluid and natural and wished a lot of his clients could shoot that well.
Practice, practice and practice more then when you think you are good enough practice some more.
Bob
 
I have worked in the industry for 20+ years, and the MOA guarantee is just what it says depending on who's making the promise: generally, that the rifle is capable of either 3-shot or 5-shot <=MOA groups, off a bench, with match-grade ammo and in controlled conditions (e.g., not in a 20 MPH fishtailing wind). My colleagues and I have test-shot countless brands making that claim, and although we aren't (especially myself) more than good amateur shooters, we were capable to achieve 1 MOA in 90%+ of cases.

I find the "hoax" claim rather hyperbolic and sensationalist--I don't know if that gentleman was going for clickbait, but in my rather extensive experience (I managed the SAKO and Tikka brands as well), the claim is backed up by reality. Most of today's brands live up to the MOA claim. The anecdotal evidence the gentleman in the video provides is just that--much less proof of a "hoax" perpetrated by firearm companies.
 
Listening to you folks... Shucks, I have only ever bought three brand new centerfire rifles - all were Marlin lever actions. I like old rifles. I like lever actions. A lot of my rifles are 50+ years old. I almost never have to shoot over 200 yards or so. Most of my lever actions are capable of 1.5-2.0ish... and that kills the stuff I hunt right well.

Sub 1" groups? For me, thinking about teeny tiny groups reminds me of a line from a McManus story, although he was talking about his buddies in their early teen years, wondering about women: "Female anatomy was just a rumor we hoped was true."
Granted, this is only 50 yards, but with aperture sights. Those lever guns have a bit more to them than most give them credit for having. But 5 shots with 3 touching ain't too shabby. I've been able to pull this off a few times with that setup, with 425 gr and 525 gr Beartooth Bullets. Alas, I'm soon to be 55, so I finally had to break down and put some glass on the old girl a couple years ago.

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I have worked in the industry for 20+ years, and the MOA guarantee is just what it says depending on who's making the promise: generally, that the rifle is capable of either 3-shot or 5-shot <=MOA groups, off a bench, with match-grade ammo and in controlled conditions (e.g., not in a 20 MPH fishtailing wind). My colleagues and I have test-shot countless brands making that claim, and although we aren't (especially myself) more than good amateur shooters, we were capable to achieve 1 MOA in 90%+ of cases.

I find the "hoax" claim rather hyperbolic and sensationalist--I don't know if that gentleman was going for clickbait, but in my rather extensive experience (I managed the SAKO and Tikka brands as well), the claim is backed up by reality. Most of today's brands live up to the MOA claim. The anecdotal evidence the gentleman in the video provides is just that--much less proof of a "hoax" perpetrated by firearm companies.
I only own 1 Tikka, and as shown on page 1, it's lights frigging out.

I have owned quite a few savages (7 or 8 if I am remembering correctly) down through the years, going back to the days before accutrigger and all of those wonderful improvements savage has made. I've never owned a savage that wouldn't shoot 1" or better when I'm on my game.

Finally bought a Sauer 100 in 9.3 last year, haven't done any LD for it yet, but I expect great things from it. In the < $1000 market, there are SO many accurate rifles now (Tikka and Savage being my 2 faves). They may not be the most pleasant things to look at, but most hunters don't care as much about aesthetics as they do the bullet going where they point their rifles. And most of the rifles I've shot are leaps and bounds more accurate than most hunters are capable of doing.

I watch Backfire's channel quite a lot, and he generally has really good content. I think he went well wide of the mark in this video, but he's a good resource, especially for new shooters. I wouldn't totally write the guy off.
 
I've got rifles with Jewel, Timney, sako, and many factory triggers including those on factory Tikkas. I've been hunting big game since 1971, and guided hunters for deer, antelope, aoudad, hogs for over 16 years in dry, dusty, sandy, West TX, E NM, and the TX Panhandle. I never had a trigger of any make go south, fail to fire, etc. Almost without exception, it is/was, hunter/user error when there were feeding or extraction problems and can't recall a single trigger issue, ever.

I stick to my original response..... I fail to understand why anyone would care if a fellow hunter uses a $500 Tikka or a $5000 McWhorter custom. I"d be much more concerned with the hunter knowing what he's doing with what he's got.

Have seen many triggers go down. My sample size is probably larger. Shoot field style match with anywhere from 50 to 300 people and 80 to 220 rounds in the match. You will see a lot of failures on everything you can think of. Does a 5k rifle fix the problems people self-induced? No it will not. Do it eliminate most quality issues I have seen? Yes it will.
 
Tikka and Savage being my 2 faves
I own tikka, and sako for example. (same factory, tikka is lower end rifle and sako is higher end rifle)
And I have serious doubts that Tikka is more accurate then sako. I will need both of them to test side by side one day at the range to verify this issue. Tikka is really a tack driver, and I have never heard any bad things about tikka and neither I can complain.
 
Tikka and Sako are amazing shooters right from the factory. Definitely 1moa often 1/2


Sargent Zim. I hear you on the eyes and iron sights. I switched to Skinner sights on my lever guns. With good success.

Has anyone installed skinner type, or peep sites on their big bore bolt guns? How did they work ?
 
Tikka and Sako are amazing shooters right from the factory. Definitely 1moa often 1/2


Sargent Zim. I hear you on the eyes and iron sights. I switched to Skinner sights on my lever guns. With good success.

Has anyone installed skinner type, or peep sites on their big bore bolt guns? How did they work ?
I had XS ghost ring on mine. I mounted Skinners on my son's 45-70, and on a good friend's. They seem to like them. If I went that route again, I'd probably opt for Skinner since the aperture is protected. I don't know that the clover leaf is THAT much better than just a plain ghost ring aperture, but they are high vis, so there's that.
 
I own tikka, and sako for example. (same factory, tikka is lower end rifle and sako is higher end rifle)
And I have serious doubts that Tikka is more accurate then sako. I will need both of them to test side by side one day at the range to verify this issue. Tikka is really a tack driver, and I have never heard any bad things about tikka and neither I can complain.
I like both my Tikka .22-250 and Sako .25-06 (both LH models). Both rifles were around $500 when I purchased them 20+ years ago. The Tikka .22-250 has a good factory trigger and can hold 3 shots within 3/4” at 100 yrds with certain factory ammo, occasionally keep under 2” out to 200 yrds. - not a tack driver but close enough. The Sako .25-06 was also sub 1” for 3 shots and I liked the action enough to have had it made into a custom .30-06 - spent $5000 to have custom high end wood stock made, rebarreled, Swaro scope etc.. Now, it still only shoots 3/4” - but I find it more attractive to look at...sorta like a Woman after a boob job - even better because I don’t have to talk to it !
 
Tikka and Sako are amazing shooters right from the factory. Definitely 1moa often 1/2


Sargent Zim. I hear you on the eyes and iron sights. I switched to Skinner sights on my lever guns. With good success.

Has anyone installed skinner type, or peep sites on their big bore bolt guns? How did they work ?

I have a skinner on my .458 Lott (M70) right now. The jury is out. The Talley’s, scope and barrel mounted rear sight are in a box waiting to go back on if I decide I don’t care for it. I love the way the rifle handles in this configuration and I have no problem with accuracy. However, picking through a herd in the shadows is a lot easier with a scope.
 
@Philip Glass as much as I enjoy your videos, I have to call you out on this.

What you described is a problem with the lubrication stiffening/freezing in a cold environment.
Chances are that your gun guru friend contributed to the problem during gun cleaning.

Further, you cite one "data point" of poor performance of a mechanical device with an otherwise solid history of stellar performance. Statistically one data point is nearly meaningless. Ten is the smallest "sample set" used for a meaningful evaluation. A set of fifty is much, much better.

@HankBuck provided a cold environment lubricant a moment ago. Graphite has been a recommend lubricant for cold environments for at least 50 years. At least that's when I read about its use in Guns and Ammo or was it Shooting Times?
I certainly admit to the anecdotal side of this but it is from many sources. It is not just cold but dusty conditions as well that have been reported to cause issues with these triggers.

I have no dog in this hunt. My point is, as it relates to safari hunting, hunters should not over think things. Most of the gurus they follow are bench shooters and not hunters. Ask any PH and he will tell you horror stories of the guys with the new custom rifles and the poor results in the field. For a variety of reasons.
 
SO he had to light the Timney trigger on fire? (just kidding)... I know that for some very cold weather the oil/lubricant in the rifle trigger & firing pin can freeze up and cause problems. An alternative is to use a dry lube, graphite etc.. Was it the cold weather that caused the need to clean trigger with lighter fluid or just he needs to repeatedly clean that Timney trigger on any hunt?
Evidently this was a widely use method of keeping it working in the field. Maybe I am getting to be an old crusty but I simply want the gun to go bang when I pull the trigger!
 
Evidently this was a widely use method of keeping it working in the field. Maybe I am getting to be an old crusty but I simply want the gun to go bang when I pull the trigger!
Sounds like they used a play out of the WWII era Soviet air force's playbook for cold weather starts of their planes as reported in "The Blonde Knight of Germany" (a book about Eric Hartman's experience in WWII).
 
I certainly admit to the anecdotal side of this but it is from many sources. It is not just cold but dusty conditions as well that have been reported to cause issues with these triggers.

I have no dog in this hunt. My point is, as it relates to safari hunting, hunters should not over think things. Most of the gurus they follow are bench shooters and not hunters. Ask any PH and he will tell you horror stories of the guys with the new custom rifles and the poor results in the field. For a variety of reasons.

Agree Philip. That's why I emphasized "user error" in my last post. I guided enough hunters to know it to be true. The worst was a Dallas lawyer (should have known) that showed up on an aoudad hunt with his new Schmidt and Bender topped Blaser 300 Win Mag. If it weren't so sad and somewhat dangerous watching this clown , it would have been downright comical.

I also have a friend/acquaintance up in Canadian, TX who is the world's foremost sniper trainer in the world. He has shot/seen/witnessed hundreds of thousands of rounds go downrange. He constantly raves about the robustness and reliability of Tikkas rifles and triggers. One of his triggers (and numerous barrels obviously) has over 30,000 rounds on it.
 

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