1 MOA Hoax

[Don458]

Listening to you folks... Shucks, I have only ever bought three brand new centerfire rifles - all were Marlin lever actions. I like old rifles. I like lever actions. A lot of my rifles are 50+ years old. I almost never have to shoot over 200 yards or so. Most of my lever actions are capable of 1.5-2.0ish... and that kills the stuff I hunt right well.

Sub 1" groups? For me, thinking about teeny tiny groups reminds me of a line from a McManus story, although he was talking about his buddies in their early teen years, wondering about women: "Female anatomy was just a rumor we hoped was true."

Lol Pat McManus should have a thread(post) on him. Some of the funniest stories

 

[JimP]

I purchased my last rifle 7 years ago a few months before my first African safari thinking that I would take it over with my larger caliber rifle.

With the rifle I also purchased a box of off the shelf ammo. When I got home I mounted a scope and bore sighted it, then I headed down to my shooting range.

Just three shots later I had it zeroed at 100 yards. I then proceeded to shoot 5 more rounds. By the time that I was done the only hits that were out of the 1 moa range were the first two shots out of the rife.

Since then I have used it for my long distance rifle and it hasn't failed me. It still will put 5 shots into the 1 moa group out to 400 yards with my hand loads.

 

[Newboomer]

I own a vault full of rifles capable of preforming better than I am.

All this moa stuff is fine---from the bench. The real accuracy test is WHAT CAN THAT GUN (AND HUNTER) SHOOT OFF STICKS IN THE BUSH? Most of us build our own loads and test them in the gun we use in the bush. This special combo is really what tells the tale.

 

[wesheltonj]

Well SAKO guarantees 1 MOA 5 shot group with SAKO ammo. It does not leave the factory otherwise. If you can't get 1 MOA 5 shot group, its operator error not the gun.

In fact most newer rifles from most manufactures are very accurate. I think their was a lot of operator error in those shots.

 

[bowjijohn]

I do understand the premise behind the article

However

Just for fun - as I had two young lads - who have only shot a rifle on 3 different occasions - on a course today

They have not shot since they last came here a year ago

I gave each a 5 round challenge at 100m with my Blaser R8 in .223 (bench rest)

They shot 15 rounds at same distance with a cheap old .22LR as a warm up

One shot 1.5'' at 100m

The other 0.75''

I know it is not scientific - just a bit of a laugh

J

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Interesting, short video by Randy Wakeman. Browning AB3 in 270 and testing various ammo to see what the rifle likes and doesn't like. The last group is amazing.

 

[HankBuck]

I don’t think many of the rifles used by the old timers we consider so knowledgeable or experienced shot anywhere close to MOA - and it didn’t matter.

My brother used to hyperfocus on accuracy and spent way too much money eking out .2” of accuracy. I just can’t be bothered.

I liked the video and OPs overall message seems to be - No need for 1” MOA in a big game hunting rifle....2” MOA is fine and even 3” MOA likely adequate for 95% of hunting shots taken. Now, shots over 250 yrds is where 3” MOA becomes problematic but since most big game is taken inside of 250 yrds - I “think” Most Hunters will do fine with 2” MOA “most of the time”. my other opinion is (and I’m no rifle expert) MARKETING has a lot to do with Hunter expectations for accuracy - 40 years ago very few hunting rifles shot 1” MOA, no one cared. Most hunters miss or wound big game by several inches or even feet and it “ain’t the rifle”. While I am also certainly caught up in accuracy and prefer a sub MOA rifle - I realize it’s not likely to ever make a difference in any big game animal I shoot....millions of Bison were shot to the point of extinction and likely not one rifle used shot 1”MOA...the “miss” will always be my fault.

 

[Art Lambart II]

The only way to test a rifles accuracy is to remove the shooter from the equation, every time you add the shooter to the equation you add variation. IMHO group size is not as important to hunters as the first shot. Once your rifle and scope are zeroed to the same spot the only shot that matters is the first one. I’m not saying don’t shoot for group size, shooting groups gives you confidence in your equipment and sharpens your shooting skills but in the field only your first shot really matters. A wise old Bullseye shooter “Bud S. T. Chatman” would always say “You can’t shoot a 100 if your first shots not a 10”, the most important shot in any string of fire is the first shot, make sure it’s a good one.

 

[Don458]

I liked the video and OPs overall message seems to be - No need for 1” MOA in a big game hunting rifle....2” MOA is fine and even 3” MOA likely adequate for 95% of hunting shots taken. Now, shots over 250 yrds is where 3” MOA becomes problematic but since most big game is taken inside of 250 yrds - I “think” Most Hunters will do fine with 2” MOA “most of the time”. my other opinion is (and I’m no rifle expert) MARKETING has a lot to do with Hunter expectations for accuracy - 40 years ago very few hunting rifles shot 1” MOA, no one cared. Most hunters miss or wound big game by several inches or even feet and it “ain’t the rifle”. While I am also certainly caught up in accuracy and prefer a sub MOA rifle - I realize it’s not likely to ever make a difference in any big game animal I shoot....millions of Bison were shot to the point of extinction and likely not one rifle used shot 1”MOA...the “miss” will always be my fault.

I don’t know about the actual Sharps buffalo rifles,but I was able to shoot this 1” group w/ Shiloh Sharps 50-70 BP at 100yds. 2shots until I adjusted down Standard buckhorn sights . Just saying

 

[YancyW]

All this moa stuff is fine---from the bench. The real accuracy test is WHAT CAN THAT GUN (AND HUNTER) SHOOT OFF STICKS IN THE BUSH? Most of us build our own loads and test them in the gun we use in the bush. This special combo is really what tells the tale.

I shoot 8" steel off sticks. If I can ring it, that is a solid hit on most anything I hunt. To Art's point above, I do load workup off the bench, but when I get something under an 1",with a decent SD and spread, I usually don't keep messing with it, that is plenty for me.

 

[HankBuck]

I don’t know about the actual Sharps buffalo rifles,but I was able to shoot this 1” group w/ Shiloh Sharps 50-70 BP at 100yds. 2shots until I adjusted down Standard buckhorn sights . Just saying

View attachment 547979

That is some very fine shooting with MZ and iron sights - you could’ve made a good living as a Buffalo Hunter ! Usually 3 shots are considered a “group” but I would accept “two” as proof of accuracy. I think that holding MOA out to 200-300 yrds with “iron sights” would become more difficult (3” group @ 300 yrds harder then 1” @ 100). From the little reading I’ve done there are accounts that Buffalo Hunters could consistently drop Bison out to 200-300 yards. With an animal that size a 4”-5” MOA (12”-15” group @ 300 yrds) would be sufficient. Anyway, I will not argue that there were some very accurate MZ’s back in the 1860s-70s and men who knew how to shoot them....and 50 million buffalo allowed for lots of practice.

 

[Denvir Tire]

That is some very fine shooting with MZ and iron sights - you could’ve made a good living as a Buffalo Hunter ! Usually 3 shots are considered a “group” but I would accept “two” as proof of accuracy. I think that holding MOA out to 200-300 yrds with “iron sights” would become more difficult (3” group @ 300 yrds harder then 1” @ 100). From the little reading I’ve done there are accounts that Buffalo Hunters could consistently drop Bison out to 200-300 yards. With an animal that size a 4”-5” MOA (12”-15” group @ 300 yrds) would be sufficient. Anyway, I will not argue that there were some very accurate MZ’s back in the 1860s-70s and men who knew how to shoot them....and 50 million buffalo allowed for lots of practice.

Okay, I realize that I'm hijacking this thread and possibly throwing a bomb, but honestly....
How is it possible to shoot and kill 50 MILLION buffalo with the resources available in 1850-1870????
How much black powder is that?
How many tons of lead?

 

[HankBuck]

Okay, I realize that I'm hijacking this thread and possibly throwing a bomb, but honestly....
How is it possible to shoot and kill 50 MILLION buffalo with the resources available in 1850-1870????
How much black powder is that?
How many tons of lead?

 

[Jfet]

Okay, I realize that I'm hijacking this thread and possibly throwing a bomb, but honestly....
How is it possible to shoot and kill 50 MILLION buffalo with the resources available in 1850-1870????
How much black powder is that?
How many tons of lead?

When you ask that question it really becomes mind boggling, but yet they did it. It is a testament to what humans can do. Let’s try to always do the right thing. Yet, at that time they thought they were doing the right thing.

 

[HankBuck]

Denvir, my point was based on what I’ve read - I wasn’t there (wish I was). Estimates vary but some indicate that 50 million Bison were in North America in the 1700-1800s. Most were killed by market Hunters in the mid 1800s and they used a variety of rifles - MZs and .45-70 etc.. if I am off by a few million or a few decades - please excuse me because I was trying to make a broad point —- I might not be exact but think I’m “in the ball park”.
Your comment on “how much lead” is interesting and I’ve read that most professional buffalo hunters actually extracted bullets from killed buffalo - melted down- and recast the bullets. They went thru a lot of lead.

 

[Philip Glass]

My factory Savage 10 in 308, 5 shots
View attachment 547909

My Tikka T3X 6.5x55, also 5 shots
View attachment 547910

My son's Savage 10 Hoghunter in 308 - the flier was me, the bench got bumped as I was pulling the trigger. Also 5 shots.
View attachment 547911

To be fair, this is all custom ammo that I rolled myself.

Every rifle I own is still totally OEM, except for Bradley cheek rests and kick-eez spacers to get me comfortable on LOP.

And this is why I find it silly for hunters to go out and buy a $5000 custom made rifle for their next hunt. The cheap rifles all do more than what is needed for a hunting scenario.

 

[fourfive8]

Accuracy in rifle and ammo provides for shooter confidence and rids the playing field of excuses.
I have seen and shot rifles and ammo that perform all over the place for basic accuracy. I believe the statistics as presented in the OP video of about 1.8 ave. But even that seems on the optimistic side because it is a biased data base reflective of the tester's selection of rifles shot. After participating in public Hunter Sight-in events, I'd have to guess reality for hunters is quite a bit larger than 1.8" for the average rifle, ammo, hunter/shooter combination. Maybe more like 3-5", that is once the "thing" is on paper, scope mounts tightened down, etc.

 

[HankBuck]

And this is why I find it silly for hunters to go out and buy a $5000 custom made rifle for their next hunt. The cheap rifles all do more than what is needed for a hunting scenario.

While I agree that a $5000 rifle is “Not needed” - some people like a “special” item, made just for them. They want unique details (upgraded wood, custom trigger work, barrel etc..) that they appreciate and are willing to pay extra for. I have friends that are Not wealthy and drive a modest car but shoot a $15,000 Perazzi and also own Kreigoffs - their guns are much more valuable then their cars because that is what they value. My Toyota gets me anywhere a Mercedes will - but my Toyota leaves me extra $$ to spend on things I value more.

 

[HankBuck]

Accuracy in rifle and ammo provides for shooter confidence and rids the playing field of excuses.
I have seen and shot rifles and ammo that perform all over the place for basic accuracy. I believe the statistics as presented in the OP video of about 1.8 ave. But even that seems on the optimistic side because it is a biased data base reflective of the tester's selection of rifles shot. After participating in public Hunter Sight-in events, I'd have to guess reality for hunters is quite a bit larger than 1.8" for the average rifle, ammo, hunter/shooter combination. Maybe more like 3-5", that is once the "thing" is on paper, scope mounts tightened down, etc.

You can get a good idea of the average Hunter’s shooting ability when you talk to hunting Guides - ask them to tell about clients and poor shooting. You might think that Hunters who have the desire, time, & $$ to go on a paid hunt would have “above average shooting ability”....Not always the case. A guy in camp in WY 3 years ago shot his Antelope thru the ear, then the guts, before finally putting one in the ribs....Guide was Not happy. Although it is poor etiquette to criticize another hunters shooting, one of the other guys in camp congratulated this hunter on his trophy and said “nice buck, what’d you hit him with - a Grenade?”

 

[JimP]

You can get a good idea of the average Hunter’s shooting ability when you talk to hunting Guides - ask them to tell about clients and poor shooting. You might think that Hunters who have the desire, time, & $$ to go on a paid hunt would have “above average shooting ability”....Not always the case. A guy in camp in WY 3 years ago shot his Antelope thru the ear, then the guts, before finally putting one in the ribs....Guide was Not happy. Although it is poor etiquette to criticize another hunters shooting, one of the other guys in camp congratulated this hunter on his trophy and said “nice buck, what’d you hit him with - a Grenade?”

If you actually look at how most hunters do with shooting you would be wondering just how the ever hit anything. I know quite a few hunters that the only time that they pull the trigger is when they are actually hunting. They sight their rifles in and then place it in a dark closet to sit there for 50 weeks a year only to be retrieved to go on that one hunt.

My brother in law asked me to load up some rounds for his hunting rifle once. I told him that I was going to need the rifle to get the best results on the loads. When I shot it I found that it was shooting 6+ inches to the right. He told me that he had sighted it in and had never touched the scope since. That first sighting in session was around 35 years before. I wondered just how he ever killed anything.