1 MOA Hoax

[bowjijohn]

I find this all so curious

If you are a hunter - or indeed a soldier

Your rifle is an extension to your arm and eye

You know - from countless repetitions - in countless scenarios - what it, & you, can do

If that is not adequate, then for me the solution is to cut down on the number of firearms and increase practice and familiarly with those that meet the criteria

not so ??

J

Ps - if I may quote my old regiment

“If you don’t know your tool - you are one”

I suspect only Brits and Rhodies will understand the use of the word ‘tool’ in this context

 

[Inline6]

And this is why I find it silly for hunters to go out and buy a $5000 custom made rifle for their next hunt. The cheap rifles all do more than what is needed for a hunting scenario.

Then you do not understand what difference you are buying. Their are reasons why better guns cost more money. If you shoot a lot it will not take long to figure it out.

 

[Jfet]

“If you don’t know your tool - you are one”

Brilliant!!!

 

[Wyatt Smith]

a 1” group is about the best I can shoot. I am fine with a 2” group on big game rifles. I never bothered to spend too much time at the bench, shooting or reloading. If I gains a load that shoots 1.5” consistently I load the rest of the box.

 

[One Day...]

This video does not surprise me at all...

It is entirely consistent with my experience, both civilian (and military in a former life, when I saw a lot of people shoot).

The simple facts are:

1) It is a rare modern factory rifle indeed, regardless of brand and price, with CNC machined action, barrel and synthetic stock mold, that does not shoot 1 MOA with at least some of the myriad factory ammo;​

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2) Most shooters, and even more to the point: most hunters, do not have the shooting technical knowledge and training necessary to shoot 1 MOA, regardless of the rifle they use;​

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3) I do not believe that many folks active on AH are statistically representative of "most shooters" or "most hunters", like random folks on a public shooting range are;​

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4) Of course, one can be sure that a warranty control group shot by a manufacturer will be shot by a professional, in ideal laboratory conditions, with a specific load, etc. which essentially explains why such warranty is mostly irrelevant to the real world because users and conditions will be different...​

How this all relates to big game hunting killing shots...

Actually, even 3 MOA is completely fine with the vast majority of hunting shots out to 300 yards!

I know, I know, what a provocative statement, right?

Here is why...

1) Let us clarify that 1 MOA translates to 1" at 100 yards (well, not quite exactly, the real number is 1.047″ but who cares for hunting at 300 yards!); ~2" at 200 yards, ~3" at 300 yards, etc.

2) Based on common sense observation, and confirmed in Jack O'Connor's book The Hunting Rifle and other sources, the vital areas of common game are:

• Pronghorn / small deer / small African antelopes: ~8" to 9". A 9" circle represents 3 MOA at 300 yards...
• Medium size deer / medium African antelope: ~10" to 11". A 11" circle represents 3.6 MOA at 300 yards...
• Large deer / North American wild sheep / mountain goat: ~11" to 14". A 14" circle represents 4.6 MOA at 300 yards...
• Elk / large African antelope: ~14" to 16". A 16" circle represents 5.3 MOA at 300 yards...
• Moose / Eland: ~18" to 21". A 21" circle represents 7 MOA at 300 yards...

And this, gentlemen, is why most hunters (even very casual ones who shoot 1 box of ammo in 3 years' time) are generally capable of killing game: 3 MOA groups are plenty good out to 300 yards!

Actually, for dense-woods or dense-bush hunters who only take 100 yards shots, a 6 MOA rifles if perfectly OK, because it is a small deer indeed that has a vital area less than 6" wide...

Another fun test...

Here in Arizona, where most hunters will sooner or later brag about their 600 or 800 yards elk, another fun test is to invite them to shoot an 18" plate at said distance. Warning: a considerable amount of ammo can be consumed, and feelings can get hurt

 

[JimP]

Another fun test...

Here in Arizona, where most hunters will sooner or later brag about their 600 or 800 yards elk, another fun test is to invite them to shoot an 18" plate at said distance. Warning: a considerable amount of ammo can be consumed, and feelings can get hurt

One thing that I have also learned in the hunting fields is that most hunters can't tell distances very well. What was once a 600 yard shot on a elk turns out to be only 300 yards.

If you listen to a lot of hunters they will tell you that they took that 600 yard shot on a elk and held on the top of the elks back and hit him in the lungs. This equates to about a 12" bullet drop. Then when you tell and show them that the bullet actually drops close to 50" at that range they just look at you dumbfounded.

 

[bowjijohn]

Distance and wind !!!

My two greatest challenges

Very important with .22LR which is why I advocate that calibre to learn with

Shoot .22LR well out to 180 yards, you can apply the same skills to shoot centre fire to 1000

I use a range of devices to help me

Kestrel
Sig Sauer 10k bins

Both with applied ballistics

Other than that …

Know your rifle
Know your ground
Know your quarry
Know your limitations

… And practice a bit - then a bit more

In the African bush range ain’t usually the issue

It is about reading the signs, seeing through the bush, understanding the wildlife etc etc

No different from you guys that hunt Alaska etc

You just need to understand your environment

Took you Alaskan lads all your life?

Same over here

 

[sgt_zim]

And this is why I find it silly for hunters to go out and buy a $5000 custom made rifle for their next hunt. The cheap rifles all do more than what is needed for a hunting scenario.

Yup. I only own 1 rifle that cost more than $1000, and that was my recent purchase of my MRC 404J.

 

[Ray B]

To me, the MOA system of accuracy is somewhat misleading. A more meaningful way for me is to know how far from the point of aim will the nearest/farthest impacts be. If your rifle groups into 1" at 100yards and your sights are set at the statistical center of that group, then the farthest you'd expect the bullet to impact from your poa is 1/2" at 100 yards. If your rifle is "inaccurate" and only groups in 5" at 100 yards, but the group is balanced, the farthest impact would be 2.5" at 100 yards, or 7.5" at 300 yards, which would still put the bullet in the chest of a large deer.

 

[JGRaider]

Yup. I only own 1 rifle that cost more than $1000, and that was my recent purchase of my MRC 404J.

And this is why I find it silly for hunters to go out and buy a $5000 custom made rifle for their next hunt. The cheap rifles all do more than what is needed for a hunting scenario.

I have to wonder why you guys would give a crap what another hunter chooses to spend his money on.

 

[Newboomer]

And this is why I find it silly for hunters to go out and buy a $5000 custom made rifle for their next hunt. The cheap rifles all do more than what is needed for a hunting scenario.

And it doesn't hurt as much if it gets scratched or dinged.

 

[Newboomer]

I find this all so curious

If you are a hunter - or indeed a soldier

Your rifle is an extension to your arm and eye

You know - from countless repetitions - in countless scenarios - what it, & you, can do

If that is not adequate, then for me the solution is to cut down on the number of firearms and increase practice and familiarly with those that meet the criteria

not so ??

J

Ps - if I may quote my old regiment

“If you don’t know your tool - you are one”

I suspect only Brits and Rhodies will understand the use of the word ‘tool’ in this context

As the old saying goes,"Beware the man with only one gun. He probably knows how to use it." Too many and you can't do justice to any of them.

 

[Newboomer]

One thing that I have also learned in the hunting fields is that most hunters can't tell distances very well. What was once a 600 yard shot on a elk turns out to be only 300 yards.

If you listen to a lot of hunters they will tell you that they took that 600 yard shot on a elk and held on the top of the elks back and hit him in the lungs. This equates to about a 12" bullet drop. Then when you tell and show them that the bullet actually drops close to 50" at that range they just look at you dumbfounded.

That is why I had my PH range my animals if I had a doubt as to distance. Then I could make the proper adjustments. Never had to change a scope setting because I didn't shoot beyond max point blank, about 300 yds for my scope setting and load.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I can't say it is anything earth shattering.

Most manufacturers only shoot 3 shots for groups, most require "match grade ammo". Take all that intoconsideration and add, most people can't shoot 1/2MOA with a 1/4MOA rifle. I'm not sure what that rifle was in the opening. It looked to very light for whatever caliber it was. Most manufacturers would have shot it from some type of rest.

@Inline6
As I tell my mate Greg and others if you have a factory rifle that groups a genuine 1.5 inch group at 100yds consistently that is fine. It will take any game you are likely to hunt out to 300yds if you do your part.
They say yes but yours do much less than 1 inch. My reply is yes they do BUT they are CUSTOM built for accuracy, not factory rifles and my HANDLOADS are tailored to that rifle.
To me it's horses four courses. You want accuracy you pay for it.
My rifles are sighted in with COLD barrels only as that is what counts. After sighting for a cold barrel I then shoot a few groups to see what happens when the barrel heats up. All being well the group doesn't change impact. You only get that with good quality components and put together properly. An animal isn't going to wait around until you fire a few shots to foul and warm your barrel. It's the FIRST SHOT that counts.
I know I can pick MY rifles up and the first and subsequent shots will be where the are supposed to be.
Just my humble opinion.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

MOA has never bothered me.....
I take a fowling shòt and then take 1 to check where it is shooting and a second to confirm thats it....ready to go

@IvW
I do love simplicity.
Before I go hunting I fire a ONE shot group to see if everything is still OK.
Then I go hunt.
Bob

 

[Ray B]

Before I go hunting I fire a ONE shot group

What size groups are you getting?

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

What size groups are you getting?

@Ray B
Depends on the calibre.
.224 inch groups with my K Hornet.
.7 inch with my 12 bore and solid slugs.
All under an inch 1 shot groups tho
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Okay, I realize that I'm hijacking this thread and possibly throwing a bomb, but honestly....
How is it possible to shoot and kill 50 MILLION buffalo with the resources available in 1850-1870????
How much black powder is that?
How many tons of lead?

@Denvir Tire
Simple answer.
A shit load.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yup. I only own 1 rifle that cost more than $1000, and that was my recent purchase of my MRC 404J.

@sgt_zim
Even my customers rifles cost less than a Winchester mod 70 in Australia
My 25 was 1,100 dollars sans scope.
My 35 Whelen the same price.
My lowall hornet 2k but that was because of the wood I chose for the stock.
Bob

 

[Philip Glass]

I have to wonder why you guys would give a crap what another hunter chooses to spend his money on.

I have a little different perspective. I do not care what the average joe does, But I do care about the dozens of people I take on safari with me and what they do. This is where my experience lies. On a recent hunt in Namibia an accomplished shooter decided to borrow a gun instead of take his own because his latest and greatest custom rifle was not ready in time for the hunt. Safes full of guns yet he borrowed a rifle and struggled terribly. Frustrating!
On another note I try to explain to hunters how affordable Africa is And simply that it does not require a $5000 rifle. I have many, many more stories on this and similar subjects.
I have lots of rifles that are very expensive (ie double gun) so it is not the expense. To me it is simply "is it really better"?
Regards,
Philip