1 MOA Hoax

[schwerpunkt88]

I know it's lame, but next time you come to Houston, ping me and I'll take you to that dumpster fire of a range. I go there because it's the only one I have access to within 30 minutes drive.

This is a buddy of mine from Bulgaria, took him to that range when he came into town a few years ago, he'd never shot before. On the other side of that wall is another bench, attached to the bench he's shooting from. Worse than benches attached to each other, the seats are attached to the benches.
View attachment 547920

More than that, all are attached to the earth that is both spinning and circumnavigating the sun...

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I certainly admit to the anecdotal side of this but it is from many sources. It is not just cold but dusty conditions as well that have been reported to cause issues with these triggers.

I have no dog in this hunt. My point is, as it relates to safari hunting, hunters should not over think things. Most of the gurus they follow are bench shooters and not hunters. Ask any PH and he will tell you horror stories of the guys with the new custom rifles and the poor results in the field. For a variety of reasons.

I also don’t have a dog in this either but:

Operator error is the most common problem of any equipment not functioning as designed. That includes hunting with a $500 or $5000 rifle, handloads, scopes and their mounting, sighting in, and so on. As a hunting outfitter you probably see many self-induced problems!

The second most common fault is lack of or incorrect maintenance. You made me curious about what Timney recommends for maintaining their triggers so I checked the Timney website:

From their FAQ page: https://timneytriggers.com/frequently-asked-questions2

• Should I use lube or oil on my Timney trigger?
  • No lubrication is necessary as Timney uses Teflon nickel plating. It should be keep clean but doesn’t need oil.
• How do I clean a Timney trigger?
  • Timney recommends using an alcohol based cleaner that evaporates easily. Ronsonol lighter fluid and Coleman White Gas both work well to remove dirt and debris and evaporate fully. Compressed air and the alcohol based cleaner are all that is necessary to keep your trigger clean.

I was wrong to recommend graphite. Sorry to all.

From what you and others have posted about Timney trigger failures, in either very cold weather or from dust and dirt accumulation, these failures may likely be caused by lubricants either freezing or being a “dust magnet” in dry field conditions. I admit that I like a coat of Kroil penetrating oil on my firearms. I think your friend with the lighter fluid was on the right track. I need to follow his example and break out the lighter fluid and “canned air” (for computer maintenance) just in case!

 

[Newboomer]

I also don’t have a dog in this either but:

Operator error is the most common problem of any equipment not functioning as designed. That includes hunting with a $500 or $5000 rifle, handloads, scopes and their mounting, sighting in, and so on. As a hunting outfitter you probably see many self-induced problems!

The second most common fault is lack of or incorrect maintenance. You made me curious about what Timney recommends for maintaining their triggers so I checked the Timney website:

From their FAQ page: https://timneytriggers.com/frequently-asked-questions2

• Should I use lube or oil on my Timney trigger?
  • No lubrication is necessary as Timney uses Teflon nickel plating. It should be keep clean but doesn’t need oil.
• How do I clean a Timney trigger?
  • Timney recommends using an alcohol based cleaner that evaporates easily. Ronsonol lighter fluid and Coleman White Gas both work well to remove dirt and debris and evaporate fully. Compressed air and the alcohol based cleaner are all that is necessary to keep your trigger clean.

I was wrong to recommend graphite. Sorry to all.

From what you and others have posted about Timney trigger failures, in either very cold weather or from dust and dirt accumulation, these failures may likely be caused by lubricants either freezing or being a “dust magnet” in dry field conditions. I admit that I like a coat of Kroil penetrating oil on my firearms. I think your friend with the lighter fluid was on the right track. I need to follow his example and break out the lighter fluid and “canned air” (for computer maintenance) just in case!

When on safari or hunting, I take two shots to sight in. One to see poi and another to prove it. If they both hit within 2 or 3 inches at 100 yds that's good minute of animal out to 300 yds. On one of my hunts the other hunter with me shot one round for sight in and was going to call it good. I suggested he take another to prove it. Good thing. His scope was loose and shot 6 inches off at 50 yds. Had to do a little field maintenance and resight in.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

When on safari or hunting, I take two shots to sight in. One to see poi and another to prove it. If they both hit within 2 or 3 inches at 100 yds that's good minute of animal out to 300 yds. On one of my hunts the other hunter with me shot one round for sight in and was going to call it good. I suggested he take another to prove it. Good thing. His scope was loose and shot 6 inches off at 50 yds. Had to do a little field maintenance and resight in.

@Newboomer
I fire my first shot and if it's on the money fine. If I do fire a 2nd shot it better be hitting very, very close to the first shot.
My little cheap arse Remington 788 in 222 rem is fun.
For shots and giggles instead of shooting the target at 100yds I have fun trying to shoot the pins out that are holding the target on the board.
I've had people tell me I've missed the target but then I tell them I'm not trying to hit it I'm try to hit the pins. They usually shake their head laughing, call me insane and walk off.
Bob

 

[Altitude sickness]

Another positive point in factory rifles. This Savage 110 with Accutrigger is shipped with a tool for the owner to adjust the trigger weight.
Remove the stock, adjust and reinstall the stock. :5 job at home. No gunsmith needed.

Lowered my .308 to 2 pounds even

The stock is designed for recoil reduction and does a nice job but it’s cheap feeling and looking.

so after adjusting the LOP and cheek with provided spacers. I painted it and covered the plastic check piece with thin leather.

Good scope and it’s a shooter

 

[Altitude sickness]

From my factory FN in .308
And I’m no sniper. Just an average shot

 

[IvW]

From my factory FN in .308
And I’m no sniper. Just an average shot

View attachment 549149

You missed the bull...just kidding.....

 

[Altitude sickness]

That’s why I didn’t win :>))))

 

[Jfet]

From my factory FN in .308
And I’m no sniper. Just an average shot

View attachment 549149

You are average for the people you shoot with. If you are shooting with me you would be a super hero. Can you shoot a group that small with a .40 caliber round?

 

[HankBuck]

From my factory FN in .308
And I’m no sniper. Just an average shot

View attachment 549149

Do you find you get better accuracy at lower velocities? (you listed 2650 fps). I have found tat standard velocities for .270, .30-06 have given me best accuracy. Now, I don’t reload - just use quality factory ammo and always try multiple brands & bullet types/weights to obtain whats best in my rifles. Can always find at least one or two loads for each gun that’s sub MOA = good enough for me. But Never shot a .10” —- thats great and beats my .22-250 that “once” shot a 3/8”.

 

[Altitude sickness]

A friend loaded that for me. I do not load.

That group was off a mat laying prone. (Target shooting) not a realistic hunting group

I send it to demonstrate that factory rifle’s accuracy is not a hoax as posted.

 

[HankBuck]

A friend loaded that for me. I do not load.

That group was off a mat laying prone. (Target shooting) not a realistic hunting group

I send it to demonstrate that factory rifle’s accuracy is not a hoax as posted.

I did Not take the OP as a comment on the inaccuracy of Factory Rifles but rather the inaccuracy of average shooters and the “combination of both”. I thought the OP is “generally” true even though I’ve found many exceptions in my own factory rifles, my guess would be less then 20% will be able to shoot 1” MOA for 5 shots consistently —— thats a very high standard, 5 shots for 3 groups is much different then a 3 shot group. FIVE shots (5) under 1” and have to do that THREE TIMES is very difficult and well beyond what most Hunters require. I don’t know if any rifle I own (even the 2 customs) could do that. At least not without handloads and a scope in the 12-18 power range (my scopes top out at 8 or 9 power with standard duplex). I can get 3 shot groups consistently under 1” with several rifles — but even with those - Not everytime. Partly because they aren’t set up for bench shooting, the scopes are selected for hunting. Others people, shooters that handload and bench shoot often may disagree and may be much better shooters. I’m OK with a rifle, maybe a bit better then average but Not in the Circus... Still, when I miss —-it’s always My Fault.

 

[Altitude sickness]

You’re right it takes a good scope and trigger. And time between shots. It takes along time for the barrel to cool down

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

A friend loaded that for me. I do not load.

That group was off a mat laying prone. (Target shooting) not a realistic hunting group

I send it to demonstrate that factory rifle’s accuracy is not a hoax as posted.

@Altitude sickness
But will it do that everytime.
Bob

 

[Inline6]

You’re right it takes a good scope and trigger. And time between shots. It takes along time for the barrel to cool down

Hmmm depends on the barrel. I had a 6.5CM all factory, it would stack 5 in your thumb nail at 300 yards. No waiting, get on target get on the trigger then send it. Have sent 20 rounds in less than 2 minutes in matches. Good barrels won't walk when they get hot. On the other hand some barrels that have not received the proper stress relief will walk as they heat up.

 

[Vintageguy]

Personally I don’t much care what a hunting rifle does after the 3rd shot but it had better be under an moa on that 3rd shot if I’m going to keep it, referring to bolt guns, of course. I’ve hunted nearly a half century and have yet not needed 4 let alone 5 pinpoint shots in rapid succession on game. But I do want to establish what the “new to me” rifle is capable of and that’s only done from the bench and I have always been able to get better groups with hand loads too and don’t ever use factory loads for hunting.
As far as shooters not being capable, ABSOLUTELY, most I’ve ever watched at the range shot poorly from the bench with poor technique. Many are recoil sensitive and flinch so bad it’s just impossible even with varmit calibers.
Lastly, I believe too few people practice by dry fire. I’m convinced that it is my most productive practice. I dry fire from the bench, sticks, offhand and at all kinds of angles, positions, distances, and targets. I also like to aim my rifle offhand and hold it for 2 minutes or more before pulling the trigger which strengthens the muscles used in aiming. All this gives me acute awareness of where the crosshairs are when the sear breaks and I never have to wonder what happened on a miss because my brain knew where the crosshairs were.
To me marksmanship starts with a rifle more capable than the shooter and a shooter who has confidence in his rifle and his own abilities but knows where the line is in terms of his and his rifle’s ability to hit the intended target because they have shot and practiced enough to know.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Personally I don’t much care what a hunting rifle does after the 3rd shot but it had better be under an moa on that 3rd shot if I’m going to keep it, referring to bolt guns, of course. I’ve hunted nearly a half century and have yet not needed 4 let alone 5 pinpoint shots in rapid succession on game. But I do want to establish what the “new to me” rifle is capable of and that’s only done from the bench and I have always been able to get better groups with hand loads too and don’t ever use factory loads for hunting.
As far as shooters not being capable, ABSOLUTELY, most I’ve ever watched at the range shot poorly from the bench with poor technique. Many are recoil sensitive and flinch so bad it’s just impossible even with varmit calibers.
Lastly, I believe too few people practice by dry fire. I’m convinced that it is my most productive practice. I dry fire from the bench, sticks, offhand and at all kinds of angles, positions, distances, and targets. I also like to aim my rifle offhand and hold it for 2 minutes or more before pulling the trigger which strengthens the muscles used in aiming. All this gives me acute awareness of where the crosshairs are when the sear breaks and I never have to wonder what happened on a miss because my brain knew where the crosshairs were.
To me marksmanship starts with a rifle more capable than the shooter and a shooter who has confidence in his rifle and his own abilities but knows where the line is in terms of his and his rifle’s ability to hit the intended target because they have shot and practiced enough to know.

@Vintageguy
I think it called calling the shot.
Before I pull the trigger I know where that shot is going to go. If I don't think it will I don't pull the trigger.
If that bullet doesn't land where I've called in my head I want to know what I did wrong as I know it wasn't the rifle.
Bob