What I am saying is that from a pure hunting scenario there is little difference these days. Sure for banging steel at 1000yd+ there is a difference and it is fun!
Agree with your points and would add that even “off hits” can be fatal {with a little luck} ie: miss a deer high = spine, too far forward & high = neck, far back & low = femoral artery....even a gut shot kills in 12-24 hour...plus you might get a follow up shot on the wounded animal, as I mentioned “a little luck”. Now, no one wants to gut shoot game or count on a spine or neck shot and should practice to avoid such hits or refrain from taking bad shots but many hunters take their trophy’s home with “off hits”. I also think these “off hits” are often left out of the “campfire stories” later retold about the Great Shot they made on that big buck etc.. For me, making a bad shot on a big game animal - even when recovered - takes much of joy out of that trophy....makes me practice even more.This video does not surprise me at all...
It is entirely consistent with my experience, both civilian (and military in a former life, when I saw a lot of people shoot).
The simple facts are:
1) It is a rare modern factory rifle indeed, regardless of brand and price, with CNC machined action, barrel and synthetic stock mold, that does not shoot 1 MOA with at least some of the myriad factory ammo;2) Most shooters, and even more to the point: most hunters, do not have the shooting technical knowledge and training necessary to shoot 1 MOA, regardless of the rifle they use;3) I do not believe that many folks active on AH are statistically representative of "most shooters" or "most hunters", like random folks on a public shooting range are;4) Of course, one can be sure that a warranty control group shot by a manufacturer will be shot by a professional, in ideal laboratory conditions, with a specific load, etc. which essentially explains why such warranty is mostly irrelevant to the real world because users and conditions will be different...
How this all relates to big game hunting killing shots...
Actually, even 3 MOA is completely fine with the vast majority of hunting shots out to 300 yards!
I know, I know, what a provocative statement, right?
Here is why...
1) Let us clarify that 1 MOA translates to 1" at 100 yards (well, not quite exactly, the real number is 1.047″ but who cares for hunting at 300 yards!); ~2" at 200 yards, ~3" at 300 yards, etc.
2) Based on common sense observation, and confirmed in Jack O'Connor's book The Hunting Rifle and other sources, the vital areas of common game are:
And this, gentlemen, is why most hunters (even very casual ones who shoot 1 box of ammo in 3 years' time) are generally capable of killing game: 3 MOA groups are plenty good out to 300 yards!
- Pronghorn / small deer / small African antelopes: ~8" to 9". A 9" circle represents 3 MOA at 300 yards...
- Medium size deer / medium African antelope: ~10" to 11". A 11" circle represents 3.6 MOA at 300 yards...
- Large deer / North American wild sheep / mountain goat: ~11" to 14". A 14" circle represents 4.6 MOA at 300 yards...
- Elk / large African antelope: ~14" to 16". A 16" circle represents 5.3 MOA at 300 yards...
- Moose / Eland: ~18" to 21". A 21" circle represents 7 MOA at 300 yards...
Actually, for dense-woods or dense-bush hunters who only take 100 yards shots, a 6 MOA rifles if perfectly OK, because it is a small deer indeed that has a vital area less than 6" wide...
Another fun test...
Here in Arizona, where most hunters will sooner or later brag about their 600 or 800 yards elk, another fun test is to invite them to shoot an 18" plate at said distance. Warning: a considerable amount of ammo can be consumed, and feelings can get hurt
A question on triggers, a minor problem that I find with good triggers: Once you shoot a rifle with a great trigger (crisp, 3lb. pull) and get use to that - you will have difficulty shooting poor triggers. You get “spoiled” but someone switching from a bad trigger (6lbs. Lots of creep) can adjust easily to a Great trigger. I never thought much about triggers when I was younger but now I almost “require” a good rifle trigger to shoot well.
I agree in some respects. I've heard that the Timney triggers require constant maintenance in the field. Like a lot of things they are great at the range but not so great in the field. Just an example of what is considered top quality yet won't perform.
This is the issue common to virtually all steel equipment. the more precise the fitting on one part to another the better it operates but more susceptible it is to dirt causing it to malfunction.
Yeah as someone with a Minor in Wildlife Biology, I always cringe when I hear that there were 60 million buffalo back then. Total made-up BS to make the white man European look even worse. Probably was 1/5th of that claim.
@phillip Glass
Here’s an interesting look into the bison topic:
www.africahunting.com
I’ve only had 2 custom rifles built (.30-06 & .375 H&H) both times a Jewel trigger was recommended over the Timney. Once, the existing Sako trigger was recommended as a viable option because it was 3 lbs. and especially crisp & consistent. I’ve never heard anything bad about the Timney but they may not be considered top tier.
Not sure how to resolve that discrepancy but even if “only” 10mil (concentrated West of Mississippi) - that’s a hell of a lot of buffalo to lose in 30-40 years. But the point was only made to illustrate the effectiveness of rifles accuracy & killing power even 150 years ago - no scopes, range finders, sub MOA, and velocities under 2000 fps....
My friend is a real gun guru and on a recent hunt to AK he had to bring lighter fluid and long qtips to clean the Timney trigger regularly. One thing about the R8 is the trigger is fantastic right out of the box!
SO he had to light the Timney trigger on fire? (just kidding)... I know that for some very cold weather the oil/lubricant in the rifle trigger & firing pin can freeze up and cause problems. An alternative is to use a dry lube, graphite etc.. Was it the cold weather that caused the need to clean trigger with lighter fluid or just he needs to repeatedly clean that Timney trigger on any hunt?
