Zeiss - Giving in to Antis

[C.W. Richter]

Legitimate or not, I see a lot of sense in the Zeiss standpoint. I see a lot more acceptance of the move towards eating game as being heathy and 'right'. I see a lot of plates of food on both Swarovski and Leica adverts, everybody eats, most eat meat, even liberals. It is far more palateable than the trophy label, although we all know that the trophy meat got eaten too.

By asking "Do You eat meat?" after attempts at being cornered at the holiday dinner table by non- and even some anti-hunting relatives, that has turned the tables in nearly every instance. One veggie fam had to switch back their diet to meat for the sake of their growing children (Dr.'s orders!) That was a big pill to swallow and they've ALL accepted hunting as a way of life at this juncture. Whenever I show a trophy pic to non-hunters, it's always side-by-side with one of us and the natives putting all that meat to use! It just makes good sense, considering the wayward devolvement of the world's inhabitants today...

 

[Rubberhead]

A public photo of dead animal has brought many harms to hunting community, and zero benefits.
All public campaings against hunting, were fueled and started by our public photos with dead animals.
Professional PR of a large corporations, understands that public photo of dead animals divides the public, thus divides the market.
Zeiss is not the only company with same policy. Even now, is hard to find promotional photo of a hunting industry brand made with pictures with dead animals (especially european companies), and very soon, it will dissapear as advertising method from the rest of companies who are still using it, in ever changing modern political world. (just like marlboro man, advertising for cigarettes, gone for ever)

I am also fairly certain, that this will have effect on various hunting organisations to make changes in their codes of ethics, that public photos with dead animals will not be suported. This will happen in next 10 to 20 years, for sure, as they will have to start thinking and planning their PR.

I have been hunting as a guest in some hunting clubs, on driven boar hunts, where taking photo of game shot, was not allowed, and it was even written as a rule, and have been been told during breifing before the hunt. So, it is already happening.
Bottom line, Zeiss new policy is not surprise.

Isn't a purposeful shying away from tasteful post-hunt photos doing the same thing that Zeiss is doing? When the antis win that ground will they just quit or will they seek the next step and try to take away hunting prose or hunting forum sites. Or field photos of live game? Granted, I don't think any equipment manufacturer wasn't to use bloody, dead animals in magazine advertisements but they shouldn't object if a successful hunt ends with a "game and gun" photo without having to blur out the hunter's face, the name brand of the gun, the logo on the scope or the swoosh on the shoe.

 

[Deleted member 40394]

Switching gears, when will you be heading to Africa and what for? 3 is a no-no there and 2 should be cleaned up a bit for public display. Hunting is NOT about the KILL. That's about a nanosecond of a hunt. Now, take that kid hunting (as my G. Grandfather did,) and let he or she experience that success, and (in your private world) you've created a lifetime Hunter. For every African trophy (I mean species, not R&W score,) to be successful, you'll spend many, many days of working hard, preparing, paperwork, traveling, and then comes the long walks, stalks, fraction-of-a-second kill, a few minutes for photos (clean that blood off to better promote the sport to those who do not partake!), distributing meat to locals, and then the long journey home for you and your trophies (separate cabs.) What brought you here? Most people w/ a $500 knock-off AR-15 are NOT going to put $1,000-$2,500 Zeiss optics atop it. PA allows hunting with "magazines filled to capacity." In most circles, that means a total of 5 or less. ARs are not legal here for big game hunting. I recall hunting in SC years back and centerfires weren't even legal for Coyotes (that bothered me while deer hunting as I saw a ton!) Legal for varmints and other intruders in PA, only. I'm reasonably sure neither PA nor SC are going to curtail ownership of 30-100 rd mags anytime soon. They just don't need to serve as a reminder to <fictitious example LOL> slightly-Off kids (whom the gov't missed due to Mommy in one case and schools needing funding in the other lol) from say CT and FL, to use these devices against innocent people-and get big business sued and/or eliminated-to the detriment of our sport. As a result of this scenario, I know many safari-supporting businesses that quickly checked out of CT! Sales & Marketing is everything. It's why people buy Coca-cola and Big Macs, and later have to buy Humalin and Lipitor. The difference here, of course, is that Zeiss optics are of high quality and can enhance your shooting, so long as they continue to sell.

Africa. July. Don’t need high capacity mags for game. Only government.
This no kill pics idea is not a sustainable promotion stance long term if we hope to stand up for hunting rights. With this mindset legal hunting will die. This is my opinion. Might not be 30 years from now but 100 years. You cannot ultimately win a fight for a stance by hoping to making it a secret forever or hiding in the shadows. This is what they want you to do. Yea. I understand where it’s all going. Again. Long term. It is not good. But I can say that for almost everything these days.
And yea I can shoot a coyote in SC with anything. Slingshot. .22. Shotgun. Rifle. Airsoft.

 

[TucsonFX4]

Kids need to be

If kids are getting their exposure to hunting through Zeiss ads, hunting will be gone in a generation and rightfully so. Kids need to get their exposure through their parents and peers. And non-hunting adults need to get their exposure through friends who care to take the time and effort. Far more deer have been been shot on my land by others than by me.

I agree, and nothing about my post should have reflected the belief that it is Ziess’s responsibility to raise the next generation of responsible hunters/shooters. HOWEVER, good companies are often found encouraging, developing, and financing programs that seek those types of positive outcomes.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Generations of cavers and compromisers has created this environment and by the looks of this conversation/thread I’d say things ain’t gonna change. Give an inch and so on and so forth.

Some of you fine gentlemen are justifying/condoning woke/PC behavior if it’s in the best interest of the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

 

[Randy F]

I don’t really see it as caving to the woke brigades as much as I see it as self preservation. Much like a member here choosing to blur their image with an animal or perhaps not post a photo of their animal at all. Using caution in a messed up culture where you can be personally and financially destroyed because of your stance on something completely legal is just common sense.
The wording (Do not promote) doesn’t necessarily mean Zeiss is against any of those things. To me it means they’ve chosen to blur their image so as not to alienate any portion of their customer base so as not to risk that base exploding.
Keeping your head down in a crossfire seems seems an intelligent proactive move in order to keep (and likely grow) market share.

 

[R.M.C.]

I'm not surprised, the company is worldwide and it doesn't just sell stuff to outdoorsmen . The fact that they plan on continuing to make scopes is a big plus. And with their name, they could probably stop advertising in hunting magazines for a year and not notice any dip in sales. Their name means quality and a good number of people know it. I bet one picture on their website of a legally killed elephant would make some people uncomfortable with the company. Hell, there's lots of hunters out there that would look at it negatively. They are probably hoping to keep the business going in the future.

 

[R.M.C.]

I don’t really see it as caving to the woke brigades as much as I see it as self preservation. Much like a member here choosing to blur their image with an animal or perhaps not post a photo of their animal at all. Using caution in a messed up culture where you can be personally and financially destroyed because of your stance on something completely legal is just common sense.
The wording (Do not promote) doesn’t necessarily mean Zeiss is against any of those things. To me it means they’ve chosen to blur their image so as not to alienate any portion of their customer base so as not to risk that base exploding.
Keeping your head down in a crossfire seems seems an intelligent proactive move in order to keep (and likely grow) market share.

Yep I think it's exactly like someone blurring their face out on a giraffe pic or something. Self preservation lol

 

[R.M.C.]

A business that diverse wouldn't have survived this long without a whole lot of compromise . I would never do it if I was in charge but I'm not. I wouldn't blur my face out any picture of any animal but I don't have a problem with other people doing it. Just my two cents lol

 

[Excessexpress]

I don’t see it as being much different to the way optical products have been promoted for quite some time,

As mentioned previously, it’s a different position to Nikon….

 

[C.W. Richter]

Africa. July. Don’t need high capacity mags for game. Only government.
This no kill pics idea is not a sustainable promotion stance long term if we hope to stand up for hunting rights. With this mindset legal hunting will die. This is my opinion. Might not be 30 years from now but 100 years. You cannot ultimately win a fight for a stance by hoping to making it a secret forever or hiding in the shadows. This is what they want you to do. Yea. I understand where it’s all going. Again. Long term. It is not good. But I can say that for almost everything these days.
And yea I can shoot a coyote in SC with anything. Slingshot. .22. Shotgun. Rifle. Airsoft.

did they change the law, or do you simply choose not to follow it? (rimfire only) i'm guessing the rambo AR sales & marketing was successful there (like a lot of other places.) love the shooting sports, and home defense may become necessary, but don't intermix those and hunting...one shot, one kill. Where in Africa (it's a big continent!)?

 

[wesheltonj]

While I disagree about the youth photos, Zeiss is making a smart business move. While they don't have to answer to stockholders, they do answer to the Carl-Zeiss-Stiftung Foundation that manages and owns Carl Zeiss AG and Schott AG. The purpose of the foundation is as follows:

• Economic security of both firms owned by the foundation
• Social responsibility to the employees
• Advancing the interests of precision industries
• Involvement in community facilities for the good of the working people of Jena
• Advancing natural and mathematical science in research and teaching

Zeiss Ag has 35,375 employees and revenue of 7,538 Million Euros and Schott AG 16,455 employees and revenue of 2.24 billion euros. Sport optics are a "drop in the bucket" of both employees and revenue.

You don't want to alienate any of your customers or potential customers and with politicians always making noise about hunting, you try to be a neutral as possible. If you notice will will not find any photos of me with dead animals. I cannot afford to alienate folks.

 

[Deleted member 40394]

did they change the law, or do you simply choose not to follow it? (rimfire only) i'm guessing the rambo AR sales & marketing was successful there (like a lot of other places.) love the shooting sports, and home defense may become necessary, but don't intermix those and hunting...one shot, one kill. Where in Africa (it's a big continent!)?

Last I checked a dead yote is a dead yote. Maybe you were hunting wma or something not sure but I shoot them with what I have and all I know the hundreds of other hunters I know do the same. Update: just looked at the law and coyotes are hunted on private land without restrictions during the day.
we had unlimited limits on deer until a few years ago so yes we could and can still shoot a lot. Our deer season Is 4.5 months long.
One shot. One kill I get it but not reality when you are trying to shoot a running deer down a small road with a pack of dogs on him. Which is the favored method of hunting in the lowcountry.
Eastern cape. First trip to Africa. Hope the caterers and the compromisers don’t ruin it so I can make it back there in the future.

 

[Red Leg]

A business that diverse wouldn't have survived this long without a whole lot of compromise . I would never do it if I was in charge but I'm not. I wouldn't blur my face out any picture of any animal but I don't have a problem with other people doing it. Just my two cents lol

The courage of your convictions is laudable; extraordinarily naïve but laudable. I assume you have never had to run a multi-national, publicly trade company. In case you don't know, that means the "owner" are the share holders and the person who runs it is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO).

I haven't either, but as a Vice President, I have run a multi-hundred million dollar business unit for a multi-billion dollar defense corporation that employs over a hundred thousand people. You better believe every word that came out of my mouth in an interview, a speech, or a customer or teaming negotiation was extremely well considered and depending on the subject, vetted with the Chief Information Officer (CIO).

Generations of cavers and compromisers has created this environment and by the looks of this conversation/thread I’d say things ain’t gonna change. Give an inch and so on and so forth.

Some of you fine gentlemen are justifying/condoning woke/PC behavior if it’s in the best interest of the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

Respectfully, you are going to have to school me as to what you believe is the purpose of a business enterprise. I don't know what line of work you are in, perhaps you donate every bit of profit to saving whales, or if you are salaried, you tell your employer to simply keep your wages. In the real world, a business can't survive unless it turns a profit. You don't get a wage or a profit unless you or your employer are successful.

Zeiss has a reasonably profitable business in a narrowly defined and fairly competitive market. They make superb outdoor instruments. But they are also leaders in optics of all kinds - particularly the medical field and photography. They are part of a larger holding group that represents even more diverse products.

I am sure they would like to continue to make quality products in all their divisions. But if they become the center of some hysterical anti-hunting or anti-assault weapon crusade, they endanger their whole product line. Hospitals turn to other lens and instrument sources, Leica turns to China for camera lenses etc. etc.

They are simply being good stewards of their brand, protecting their employees, and sustaining their share value.

 

[Trail Rated]

The memo is legit - no reason to doubt the guys at FE.

Sez who? This certainly sounds like the guys at FE have an agenda: “For too long mainstream media and corporations have defined the narratives of time in the field.”

I work in corporate marketing, and this “memo” looks/sounds more like an early draft or someone’s brainstorm to me — note the grammar and spelling mistakes. Typically they would get cleaned up before widely distributed.

 

[Deleted member 40394]

The courage of your convictions is laudable; extraordinarily naïve but laudable. I assume you have never had to run a multi-national, publicly trade company. In case you don't know, that means the "owner" are the share holders and the person who runs it is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO).

I haven't either, but as a Vice President, I have run a multi-hundred million dollar business unit for a multi-billion dollar defense corporation that employs over a hundred thousand people. You better believe every word that came out of my mouth in an interview, a speech, or a customer or teaming negotiation was extremely well considered and depending on the subject, vetted with the Chief Information Officer (CIO).


You are going to have to school me as to what you believe is the purpose of a business enterprise. I don't know what line of work you are in, perhaps you donate every bit of profit to saving whales, or if you are salaried, you tell your employer to simply keep your wages. In the real world, a business can't survive unless it turns a profit. You don't get a wage or a profit unless you or your employer are successful.

Zeiss has a reasonably profitable business in a narrowly defined and fairly competitive market. They make superb outdoor instruments. But they are also leaders in optics of all kinds - particularly the medical field and photography. They are part of a larger holding group that represents even more diverse products.

I am sure they would like to continue to make quality products in all their divisions. But if they become the center of some hysterical anti-hunting or anti-assault weapon crusade, they endanger their whole product line. Hospitals turn to other lens and instrument sources, Leica turns to China for camera lenses etc. etc.

They are simply being good stewards of their brand, protecting their employees, and sustaining their share value.

I am pretty sure he wasn’t necessarily talking from a business point of view. But from the hunting rights point of view.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

You are going to have to school me as to what you believe is the purpose of a business enterprise. I don't know what line of work you are in, perhaps you donate every bit of profit to saving whales, or if you are salaried, you tell your employer to simply keep your wages. In the real world, a business can't survive unless it turns a profit. You don't get a wage or a profit unless you or your employer are successful.

Zeiss has a reasonably profitable business in a narrowly defined and fairly competitive market. They make superb outdoor instruments. But they are also leaders in optics of all kinds - particularly the medical field and photography. They are part of a larger holding group that represents even more diverse products.

I am sure they would like to continue to make quality products in all their divisions. But if they become the center of some hysterical anti-hunting or anti-assault weapon crusade, they endanger their whole product line. Hospitals turn to other lens and instrument sources, Leica turns to China for camera lenses etc. etc.

They are simply being good stewards of their brand, protecting their employees, and sustaining their share value.

I don’t think anyone can school you on anything @Red Leg

Thanks for the typically arrogant, snarky, elitist response that I’ve come to expect from you. I do enjoy them!

 

[C.W. Richter]

Last I checked a dead yote is a dead yote. Maybe you were hunting wma or something not sure but I shoot them with what I have and all I know the hundreds of other hunters I know do the same.
we had unlimited limits on deer until a few years ago so yes we could and can still shoot a lot. Our deer season Is 4.5 months long.
One shot. One kill I get it but not reality when you are trying to shoot a running deer down a small road with a pack of dogs on him. Which is the favored method of hunting in the lowcountry.
Eastern cape. First trip to Africa. Hope the caterers and the compromisers don’t ruin it so I can make it back there in the future.

Try a Rem 760 or 7600 w/ the 18.5" short bbl (and your fav 1-5x scope lol.) They reload at the shot w/o taking your eyes off the sight. We shoot running game all the time, sans the dogs. Great for recovery when someone makes a bad shot! Sitting in stands on big plantation/farm properties along the Savannah (some nicely decorated with Spanish moss). Saw the biggest boar ever bagged in the wild. Could've increased the deer population by bagging 20 of 'em (but it wasn't allowed. 10 yrs ago.) 'Saw white and gray ones that looked like wolves. Be nice to the officials at OR Tambo airport (they love throwing their weight around if any 'tudes are detected.) I'm sure the industry will survive through July...lol Good luck!

 

[Deleted member 40394]

I don’t think anyone can school you on anything @Red Leg

Thanks for the typically arrogant, snarky, elitist response that I’ve come to expect from you. I do enjoy them!

Careful now. He is btw Vice President.

 

[Red Leg]

Arrogant, snarky, elitist ....... fine.

I just get so tired when a company makes a business decision that the immediate response is that they are caving, or profiteers, or whatever. I find the if I "were running that company ......" particularly aggravating. I simply suggest thinking through some of these issues is better than immediately jumping on a critical band wagon that may or may not be responding to actual facts. After all, it is exactly what the internet mob does when it goes after one of us.

And businesses make all sorts of stupid decisions. Yeti should be the poster child. I just don't think this is one of them.