Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

[RIDE-RED350r]

Rhino is making what appears to be a tough DG oriented bullet for 45-70. Of course it should also be suitable for 45-90. About $38USD for 20.

45-70 Solid Shank (20-units) | Rhino Bullets

These are bond-core bullets with a drilled hole in the front part of the bullet and it features a solid copper shank at the rear, which is indestructible. The thick wall jackets attempt to keep petals intact, and expansion gets arrested where the drilled hole stops. The net result is that it...

www.rhinobullets.co.za

 

[HankBuck]

My PH in Tanzania said he’d seen many Buffalo taken with .45-70 lever guns and his assistant carried a Marlin Guide gun in .450 Marlin. I considered taking my Marlin .45-70 and using Buffalo Bore .405 grain bullets —— but decided to use my Safari as an “excuse” to purchase a .470 NE double (Chapuis). I think I would of done just fine with the Marlin - I certainly get more use out of that (Bear & Deer) then my .470NE.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

My PH in Tanzania said he’d seen many Buffalo taken with .45-70 lever guns and his assistant carried a Marlin Guide gun in .450 Marlin. I considered taking my Marlin .45-70 and using Buffalo Bore .405 grain bullets —— but decided to use my Safari as an “excuse” to purchase a .470 NE double (Chapuis). I think I would have done just fine with the Marlin - I certainly get more use out of that (Bear & Deer) then my .470NE.

A 450 Marlin? That’s interesting. I bet ammo is scarce there

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Rhino is making what appears to be a tough DG oriented bullet for 45-70. Of course it should also be suitable for 45-90. About $38USD for 20.

45-70 Solid Shank (20-units) | Rhino Bullets

These are bond-core bullets with a drilled hole in the front part of the bullet and it features a solid copper shank at the rear, which is indestructible. The thick wall jackets attempt to keep petals intact, and expansion gets arrested where the drilled hole stops. The net result is that it...

www.rhinobullets.co.za

That is an interesting looking bullet... I am intrigued. I am really happy with how brass solids from Cutting Edge have worked, but these look like they have promise.

 

[PerH]

That is an interesting looking bullet... I am intrigued. I am really happy with how brass solids from Cutting Edge have worked, but these look like they have promise.

In short a updated Tbbc of the older pattern Rhino is .

 

[rookhawk]

All the way back on the first page a few responses really hit the nail on the head. You can't squeeze the giant NEs into any of the lever guns. If you could, it would be an unwieldy giant action. I'd be VERY concerned that you could get an explosion in the tubular magazine as well, even with round nose bullets.

About as close as one could come would be playing with the patents of the Winchester 1895 and possibly seeing what might squeeze into its stacked magazine. The 405 was fairly lethargic, but perhaps a 375HH or a 404J or even a 416 Ruger/Remington could be slipped into a modified 1895 or an "upsized" custom.

But to what benefit? Heavy recoil, long lever flows, loose actions not known for precision. It's pretty hard to get around the idea of a lever DG rifle compared to a double rifle or a good Mauser claw action CRF design.

I'd be inclined to trust a falling block single shot for more reliability and nearly as fast of reloading as a lever gun. Even then, the odds of a lever gun jamming with a very long cartridge, or seizing under heat and pressure, give me pause.

The lever gun tops out at the current uses, bush pilots with mid-sized cartridges in Canada and Alaska.

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

All the way back on the first page a few responses really hit the nail on the head. You can't squeeze the giant NEs into any of the lever guns. If you could, it would be an unwieldy giant action. I'd be VERY concerned that you could get an explosion in the tubular magazine as well, even with round nose bullets.

About as close as one could come would be playing with the patents of the Winchester 1895 and possibly seeing what might squeeze into its stacked magazine. The 405 was fairly lethargic, but perhaps a 375HH or a 404J or even a 416 Ruger/Remington could be slipped into a modified 1895 or an "upsized" custom.

But to what benefit? Heavy recoil, long lever flows, loose actions not known for precision. It's pretty hard to get around the idea of a lever DG rifle compared to a double rifle or a good Mauser claw action CRF design.

I'd be inclined to trust a falling block single shot for more reliability and nearly as fast of reloading as a lever gun. Even then, the odds of a lever gun jamming with a very long cartridge, or seizing under heat and pressure, give me pause.

The lever gun tops out at the current uses, bush pilots with mid-sized cartridges in Canada and Alaska.

I agree that the idea of making a lever rifle that can run what are considered traditional DG cartridges is a fools errand.

That said, I'm not sure you are intimately familiar with the Winchester 1886/71 action. They aren't light rifles and modern specimens have very strong actions. My 1886 Takedown with 26" octogon barrel goes nearly 10lbs. Am I saying they are as strong as a bolt rifle? No. But it is widely accepted that a modern 1886 is well capable of handling 50k psi loadings. When you take the 45-90 and develope stout but safe loads using a bullet of the proper construction, it loses almost nothing to the 458WM. The 45-90 has about 98% of 458WM case capacity. Stout smokeless 50-110 blows the 458WM and many others out of the water for raw energy. All from a tube fed lever rifle. That said, I think its a fairly short list of cartridges that run reliably in an 1886/71 that would perform on heavy critters. 45-90, 50-110, and maybe 50AK.

Accuracy?? Well, I can do as well at 100yds with my 45-90 1886 as I can with my sporterized Springfield '03 with peep sights. I can usually get groups of 1.5" and under at 100yds with the 1886 shooting from a rest. I've achieved hideous accuracy with my brass Henry 45-70. I think I may have posted a pic earlier in this thread. Obviously the dynamic changes greatly shooting off-hand as one would afield. But the theory that lever rifles are inherently inaccurate I have found to be completely false in my experience. Accuracy potential of a scoped bolt rifle? No. But I don't see too many DG class rifles with glass on them be they bolts or doubles. And they are chambered in close range heavy hitting rounds, not your sub-moa paper punchers.

I've been shooting lever rifles most of my life, from basic Win 94s in 32spl, 375 Win, 45 Colt to less common 1876 in 45-60 and 1886 in 45-90. Never have I had one lock up on me during load development or afield. I load my own ammo so I take great care in making consistent ammo. I attribute good accuracy partially to that.

In closing, please don't take this comment as an attack on you as that is far from my intent. Also, I have yet to hunt Africa but I would love to one day. I came here to learn from those who do and have. But I do have a pretty good handle on most of the various lever rifles and their capabilities and wanted to share some of my personal experiences. I kind of think lever rifles get a bad rap from time to time. They are my favorite platform as I'm sure you might be able to tell. This in an interesting conversation and I am truly enjoying it.

When I do find myself aboard an airliner bound for Africa, I will have my modern 1886 with me and hopefully by that time I will have my 50-110WCF front half for it. I just hope handloaded ammo is permitted to bring along. If it is prohibited then I'm definitely going to need a plan B

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I cannot speak to other African countries - perhaps others can - but in South Africa you're good to go, as far as handloads. I just got back a few weeks ago. I used handloads for both my rifles - a Savage 99 in .300 Savage, and a Marlin GBL, with which I took a buffalo (#2 with this rifle), as well as a few heads of plains game.

Like you I strongly favor lever actions. The last animal I took with a bolt action was a moose in 2009. On my first trip to Africa I took the GBL and a Marlin MXLR in .338 Marlin Express - it's my go-to rifle.

Best of wishes on your own journey to a first time in Africa; it makes me smile to know you'll do it in style with a lever.

 

[HankBuck]

A 450 Marlin? That’s interesting. I bet ammo is scarce there

Good point and I never thought about ammo availability for the .450 Marlin in Africa. This was in 2006 so that .450 Marlin was fairy new, I considered buying one but decided on a .45-70 because of greater selection of bullet weights AND that Buffalo Bore loaded ammo equal to velocities & power of the .450 Marlin. The recoil on that Marlin 1895 was significant and I later added a muzzle break - even then it was still the hardest kicking rifle I owned - more then my .375 H&H....probably because the Marlin was fairly light weight. But then I later purchased a .470 NE and must say that kicked a bit harder.

 

[Bulldog1]

As mentioned earlier all I have ever known are lever guns but in my opinion at the end of the day the platform is less critical than the caliber for the hunt involved. But with enough thought and trial and error you can get close to most desires. I have a fairly varied collection of levers but if I feel there is a void I try to fill it. In that process I had one of my Model 71's converted to 50-110 for my Alaska adventures and a BLR converted to 338 WinMag for my Elk hunts. Currently I'm converting another BLR to 416 Ruger to fill a void in what future type of hunts I may want to try.

While a lever gun is somewhat non-conventional for Africa, I'm certain the 416 Ruger caliber has proved its capability more than once regardless of the action used. That said, having traveled down this road many times if I don't feel that every aspect is 100% as good as it should be I don't forge on just to say I did it. However, the more I read the wonderful stories of incredible hunts posted here the sirens song of a double rifle in Africa is gently calling.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Maybe this has been brought up somewhere else...

I have hunting shows on TV this afternoon, while working on rifles. It's raining hard and seems like a good "work on guns" day.

There is a show I am not familiar with on The Sportsman Channel - Gateway to Africa. One of the PHs, Francois Nels, had a Marlin .45-70 on the table in front of him while he was talking, and there was footage of him hiking and talking, carrying the same rifle.

 

[BeeMaa]

Maybe this has been brought up somewhere else...

I have hunting shows on TV this afternoon, while working on rifles. It's raining hard and seems like a good "work on guns" day.

There is a show I am not familiar with on The Sportsman Channel - Gateway to Africa. One of the PHs, Francois Nels, had a Marlin .45-70 on the table in front of him while he was talking, and there was footage of him hiking and talking, carrying the same rifle.

The show is based around Kaiwhai Safaris with locations in South Africa and Namibia. On their website there is a bio on Francois Els and states that his favorite rifle for backup on DG is a lever action 457 from Wild West Guns. He's holding the rifle in the picture next to his bio, but I can't tell if the barrel is ported or not.

I believe the 457 is referencing the 457WWG cartridge, invented by Wild West Guns as a modern magnum version of the 45-70. It's based around shooting a 350 grain bullet at 2300 fps in a takedown lever action rifle that's convenient to disassemble/reassemble for travel in the bush.

Now for a lesson in physics...
375H&H 300 grain bullet at 2500 fps is 4163 lb-ft with a SD of .305
457WWG 350 grain bullet at 2300 fps is 4111 lb-ft with a SD of .238

So in reality he's using a rifle to backup hunters on DG that is less powerful and has a lower SD than the minimum required for a traveling hunter. Makes perfect sense. And as long as he is meeting whatever PH requirements he has to, I don't really care what he's backing up clients with.

There is a big difference between a traveling hunter using a lever action and a PH using one for backup on DG hunts.

In short, do your homework and make the best decision for you and who you hunt with. My homework tells me that I would not trust his rifle to be a proven stopper on any DG and that I would be looking elsewhere to hunt something like this. It's your hunt and your decision.

If I had to guess...he's using it to attract more American hunters to hunt Africa by using a lever action., Another possibility is that he or the show is being helped by Wild West Guns. I suppose it makes for good TV, right up to the point where he has to put it into practice.

There is a big difference between a traveling hunter in Africa hunting DG with a lever action and a PH using it as his backup rifle.

 

[fourfive8]

The operative words being video or tv.

 

[michael458]

I believe the 457 is referencing the 457WWG cartridge, invented by Wild West Guns

I had a horrendous experience with those people back in 2004-2005...... I sent a gun to be converted to 510 Alaskan, when it came back it was awful.... First they said about 6 months. Ok, no worries, at 8 months I called, not ready yet. OK, at 10-12 months I called, its ready, but we don't have a box to ship it in!!!!!! Yeah, can't ship because they don't have a box? Finally I got the rifle, and it would not even chamber a 510 Alaskan (50 Alaskan at .510 caliber) Rough as a corn cob, awful looking, just terrible. I had just started working with JD at SSK, and had a good positive experience, so much so that I would not even send the gun back to WWG.... I wanted ZERO to do with them at this point. I sent the gun to JD so that they could at least run the reamer in and get it to chamber, they did, touched it up some and got it back to me in good working condition. It had Wild West Guns scratched on it, and I was so aggravated at that point I got rid of it, never even fired the damn thing. And did not want it in my sight. End of story. I also suspect they have actually not done much study on their cartridges, pressure data and such.

TV hunting shows...... I want to puke, so much for that. I quit watching that drivel so long ago I can't even remember........ Stupid crap.

Now for a lesson in physics...
375H&H 300 grain bullet at 2500 fps is 4163 lb-ft with a SD of .305
457WWG 350 grain bullet at 2300 fps is 4111 lb-ft with a SD of .238

So in reality he's using a rifle to backup hunters on DG that is less powerful and has a lower SD than the minimum required for a traveling hunter.

Well, first of all, for any actual real comparison, I damn sure would not have use that Rat Cartridge/Caliber... (375).......

Believe it or not, caliber is extremely important in the field and there is a hell of a difference between .458 and .375....... If you use todays Modern Bullet Tech, I will take the lowly 45/70 over a rat caliber every day of the week, I wouldn't use 375 for prairie rats, useless good for nothing cartridge/caliber.

But if you make a proper comparison, say 458 Winchester, then you make a good point in many ways.

As for the SD factor, that is not a viable factor considering todays Bullet Tech. SD will only be a factor when all other factors considering bullet design are exactly the same, along with external factors such as velocity. Other than that, SD is not very important. This applies to both modern trauma inflicting bullets such as Raptors, Maximus, Hammers, and even more so with Solid Bullet design.

 

[BeeMaa]

Well, first of all, for any actual real comparison, I damn sure would not have use that Rat Cartridge/Caliber... (375).......

Believe it or not, caliber is extremely important in the field and there is a hell of a difference between .458 and .375....... If you use todays Modern Bullet Tech, I will take the lowly 45/70 over a rat caliber every day of the week, I wouldn't use 375 for prairie rats, useless good for nothing cartridge/caliber.

But if you make a proper comparison, say 458 Winchester, then you make a good point in many ways.

As for the SD factor, that is not a viable factor considering todays Bullet Tech. SD will only be a factor when all other factors considering bullet design are exactly the same, along with external factors such as velocity. Other than that, SD is not very important. This applies to both modern trauma inflicting bullets such as Raptors, Maximus, Hammers, and even more so with Solid Bullet design.

I'll take my "rat caliber" 375H&H...

 

[Marc Ret]

I'll take my "rat caliber" 375H&H...
View attachment 546039

Statler and Waldorf! Classic.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

@BeeMaa ... Thanks for the 'fill in the gaps" info on the PH, his outfit, and that gun; again, I had never seen the show or heard of them. I was just excited to see a lever action. I can see your point for what PHs use as back up rifles, and possibly the reasons you propose. Frankly it sounds like a dandy caliber for a lot of things a visiting hunter might choose to hunt. Those numbers are closer than I would have guessed, and as @michael458 pointed out, with modern bullet selections good choices can be found.

 

[Brian]

The 50-110 Win works in a 1886. I use it in a cheap break open 10 ga shotgun converter to 50-100 Win. ( Actually mine is a true .500 cal .) I shoot CEB .410 grains Raptor bullets at 1,950fps to 2,100fps. and CEB 450 grain solids a bit slower. It kills cape buffalo quickly with an ordinary mid shoulder shot.
.500 cal - .510 cal in CEB bullets works so well at these moderate velocities, some people have to see it to believe it. A PH who uses GS Custom solid bullets in his 458 Lott was surprised/impressed with the 500-110, saying that it kills cape buffalo as well or better that his 458 Lott. I believe that bullet diameter and bullet design/construction are key factors in killing cape buffalo and velocity is over rated. JMO

 

[IvW]

Why is there no speaking softly and carrying a big stick chambered in 470 NE?

I was pondering guns I could have in classic cartridges (mostly rimmed), without double gun money, and it struck me. How is it that neither Winchester nor Marlin created a lever gun in a low pressure, high performance safari cartridge that you could load on Sunday and shoot all week? Your second shot would be slower than a double but arguably faster than a bolt and the double guys don't have two or three more after that for a charging animal.

Why not? Are you all hat and no Kudu?

Simple many better and safer options for Africa anyway........otherwise all DG ph's would carry one......ok for the occasional visting hunter who is obsessed by lever actions but it aint a DG rifle..for all Africas dg anyway.....
The fanatics will go alkl out to prove it is but it aint.....simple...

 

[Philip Glass]

Why is there no speaking softly and carrying a big stick chambered in 470 NE?

I was pondering guns I could have in classic cartridges (mostly rimmed), without double gun money, and it struck me. How is it that neither Winchester nor Marlin created a lever gun in a low pressure, high performance safari cartridge that you could load on Sunday and shoot all week? Your second shot would be slower than a double but arguably faster than a bolt and the double guys don't have two or three more after that for a charging animal.

Why not? Are you all hat and no Kudu?

Kevin Robertson did a great job of explaining why a lever gun has no place on a DG hunt on The Big Game Hunting Podcast about a year ago. That podcast will have a half a dozen or so Africa related episodes a year. Some are very informative.