Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

[Tundra Tiger]

Talk to me in a couple days: I buffalo hunt tomorrow with my Marlin GBL. And on the subject of lever actions, a warthog and a kudu fell to my 1947 Savage 99 today.

 

[schwerpunkt88]

If we're concerned about the combination of big enough cartridge and fast follow up, why not simply carry a Barrett .50 caliber semi-auto? We might need to shorten up the as is barrel length and work on the current bullet offerings. Actually, now that I think about it, I doubt the bullet design would make much noticeable difference.

 

[PerH]

Col Charles Askins used a .450 on a 71 in Indochina on Gaur and other game, it was not a good bullet recipient as it required seceral more. The 405 grain i believe it was . I will look through his book tomorrow for specifics. If the bullets had been Swift, Woodleigh,Barnes X etc it may have been different. He went with his .458 Win M70 afterwards,that was what it should been.


.500 Sw is one i would like to try, seen some tests with that and quite much bullet weight one can stuff in there 600 grain+ in a lever can really rock the cashba .

 

[PerH]

 

[PerH]

 

[geoff rath]

bloody 'orrible thing on the muzzle end of the barrel of the second rifle ...

 

[BeeMaa]

The question isn' why not use a DG lever action, but rather why.

The answer is simple. The proof is in the pudding. It's far easier to to drive a properly weighted bullet to the appropriate speed that is capable of killing a DG animal from a bolt action or double rifle than a lever gun given the pressure limitations.

There are several on this site who have taken DG with a lever gun, and I applaude them. It's just not something for most people to consider when the stakes are so high. Hogs sure, whitetail no problem...dangerous game is another category.

 

[Bulldog1]

I don't post very often but on this topic I feel I have at least a small amount of knowledge. The only platform I have ever used in my life are lever actions and Ruger No1s and to my recollection I don't believe I have ever even fired a bolt action rifle.

I feel that the issue is that no one makes the commitment to improve the lever action to the degree bolt action rifles are given. Perhaps they are inherently inferior but with enough tenacity it can be done.

Case in point, I have a Browning 71 that was sent to Turnbull for the 50-110 conversion and have had the action reworked even more since then. I reload with 450gr AFrames and 500gr Woodleighs and can get them well past 5000me and I know for me it is the ultimate rifle for any animal breathing. That said I also have over $6K tied up in a levergun so at what point is it worthwhile.

However, I when I do find my way to Africa I would love to for it to be with a H&H 500/465 because... well it's Africa!

 

[WI-2021]

Non-traditional, but Browning makes the BLR in .300WM. A rebarrel to .458WM should be doable without too much trouble. .375 or .416 Ruger might be a bit tougher to get to feed but would probably work, as well as various wildcats. Recoil would probably knock you out from under your hat though. Not sure why you would, but you probably could.

 

[geoff rath]

I'm sure I read somewhere that rebarrel/conversions have been done to 416 Taylor and 458 WM; danged if I can remember where, or by whom ...

 

[michael458]

It has now been 23 years or so since I first took a lever gun to Africa. 23 years is a long time ago, and then again, it seems like yesterday as well. I have always loved lever guns, but the vast majority of my African experience is with the mighty Bolt gun, and of course Winchester M70s.

In the beginning I just loved that little Marlin Guide gun in 45/70. 23 years ago we had a major problem and that was the available bullets designed for a 45/70 lever gun, about the best you could do was a big cast bullet, and I can tell you, as good as they are in some respects, they come up short on Dangerous game in Africa, very short....... We will later in life learn that it comes down to the Bullet, it really does all the heavy lifting, regardless of all other factors.

I found myself doing some elephant shooting in Zimbabwe that year, using a Win M70 458 Lott. But as a camp gun and carry gun I also had my Marlin 45/70 along for the ride. I was shooting 420 gr Cast Performance at just a tad over 1800 fps. We were rolling along one day and came across a rather large herd of buffalo. We decided to stop and take a look. My PH at the time was just enthralled with the Guide Gun and wanted me to take it and try it out on a buffalo. Off we go. We find a suitable bull and stalk within 35 yards. He is facing us at a bit of an angle, then he lays down not quite broadside, but having some angle to the shot. We are sitting, my guy is trying to explain to me to shoot under the stick on his shoulder..... well he is sitting about 2 feet higher than I am on the slope of the hill. I see a stick, but it really is too high on the shoulder from what I am seeing..... I explain I don't think that is a good shot, its too high. He absolutely insists on me taking the shot.... OK, he is the PH and should know WTF he is talking about, but I don't think so. I aim, I shoot, buffalo jumps up and gets in the thick stuff and intermingles with the herd before another shot can be taken. I know its not good, I knew I should not have taken this shot. We get to the spot, and behold there are TWO STICKS...... one is LOWER than the one I was shooting under. From my spot, I could not see this stick. Now we are in a mess, we have a wounded buffalo, and I am suddenly feeling very very undergunned, and under bulleted.........

We seem to wait an eternity, you know how these things are, time slows down, it seems to take forever, but finally the herd decides to move off the top of the ridge and off the other side. My bull was the last one out, we see some blood dripping down one side. He is now about 80-90 yards out, I have a perfect broadside shot, take it, he runs about 30-40 yards and goes down for the count.

After a complete analysis of what happened, and later a thorough autopsy we discovered the first bullet was indeed high as I thought it would be, it hit the shoulder blade, but did not penetrate, but glanced off and later found about 2 ft from entry rather mangled up in the neck. The second shot was also at a bit more angle than I thought, but still did penetrate both lungs and was also recovered.

Now there are a few lessons learned here. 1st..... If you are a shooter, and you know something is not right, you don't always listen to the PH. If you KNOW it is a bad shot, don't take it just because the PH says so. I would once again had a very similar situation occur 4 years later, and again I did not completely learn this lesson. HEH...... In this scenario, my PH was sitting 2 ft higher than I was, he saw things I could not see from where I was sitting. He should have listened...... and I should have not taken the shot, but in the end, it all worked out.

The 2cd, and perhaps most important lesson learned, the Big Cast bullet has its limitations. And most all the bullets designed in those days had limitations, this also of course reflected on the cartridge and rifle combination, leaving it just short of where it really needed to be.

It would take another decade before the bullet situation was solved.

 

[michael458]

Apologies, but it seems this is going to take a bit more than one post to get to my point.

I did not forget the lessons learned about bullets. After developing my bolt gun cartridges, and going through many generations of bullet design to get what I needed for those, I turned my attention to the lever guns, and taking what was learned from the development of the more powerful bolt gun cartridges and applying that Bullet Technology to the lever guns. It was my hope to enhance the lever gun cartridges, with Bullet Tech.

I concentrated this effort in two calibers, specifically for two Cartridges. 45/70 of course, and now my own 50 B&M Alaskan, which is true .500 caliber....... The older 50 Alaskan is actually .510 caliber, so I call it a 51 Alaskan personally.

Now it was not quite a decade later and we had developed the CEB #13 Solids. Solids are the most important component when going to the field for dangerous game, and especially going to the field with a limited cartridge and rifle combination. Sorry lever gun guys, but there are limitations, such as pressures that have to be dealt with. Traditional lever guns cannot handle the pressures of a modern bolt gun, its just a fact. So how to we Enhance any cartridge/rifle combination? Bullet Technology!

Let us first look at 45/70........ it is of course the most common big bore lever gun.

We are blessed with any number of incredibly effective modern bullets for our lever guns these days. I was glad to assist with this in some ways and some bullets. On the lighter side, but fully effective is North Fork, Cutting Edge and now Lehigh........... heavier is around 400 gr for 45/70 and there are some very effective bullets in this category too......

These bullets are very Buffalo capable in 45/70. All have more than enough penetration to do the job properly.

A few years ago, A FRIEND OF MINE........ HAD A FRIEND, that wanted to hunt buffalo with his guide gun in 45/70, and my friend asked me to lend a hand, and set up the load for him. Of course I had all the above bullets in mind for this, and went over several scenarios. However this chap did not live close by. I was going to have to load, and depend on him to sight in and get his rifle ready. I would not have the rifle either. After much consideration, I decided I better keep it very simple, and with an absolute no issue bullet. I chose the 400 gr Lever Solid and nothing else. I had it running around 1850 fps in my guns.

He took the load, shot a good buffalo at around 30-35 yards, straight through the heart, bullet exited, buffalo went 25-30 yards and end of story, success, no drama, and no issues....... done and out..........

Todays modern bullets designed for 45/70 are incredible and enhance the cartridge/rifle combination to much greater heights than it has ever seen before. Man I wish I would have had those bullets 23 years ago........... but then, if I had, it might not have lead to better things in my future as well.............

Today you can embark upon great adventures with your lever guns, using Cutting Edge, North Fork, and Lehigh bullet tech...............But always remember, you live within certain limitations that you cannot get away from..........

 

[michael458]

It was a decade later that I went back to Africa with a lever gun, specifically for Dangerous Game. This time with my own 50 B&M Alaskan... .500 caliber.

Early in the B&M series of .500 caliber rifles, it was decided between both JD Jones and myself that we needed a big lever cartridge in .500 caliber. We had a multitude of really good, decent bullets in .500 caliber, from the 500 S&W. One of those, and one of my favorites at the time was the 500 gr Hornady Flat Nose Soft. It was not a buffalo bullet, but it was a heavy hammer on everything thin skinned. When I first developed the Cartridge, that was my first bullet to work with, this was late 2006 and early 2007. Of course the cartridge is easy, take 51 Alaskan and squeeze it down to .500.
We used a M71, Marlin Guide, and my favorite Marlin with the pistol grip stock, all 18 inch barrels.

Apologies, but the only photo I have currently of the Pistol grip gun is one taken by Layne Simpson featured in one of his articles on the 50 B&M Alaskan, Layne was quite taken with the guns and soon had one of his own built on a stainless pistol grip Marlin.........

I would not take the 50 B&M Alaskan to the field until 2013 however. I had a lot of bolt gun shooting to do before getting to that.

I found myself in South Africa first for a couple of weeks just playing around with the lever gun and other bigger bolt guns.

Then we went off to Zimbabwe, I wanted a buffalo with the Lever gun, one more time..........

Now I can tell you there is a tremendous amount of difference the way animals react to caliber. With all the bolt guns shooting rat calibers like .416 when compared to .458 caliber it was extremely notable, of course with .458 caliber on top. I saw exactly the same with increase from .458 to .500 caliber, with similar bullets at similar velocity.

In Zimbabwe I was shooting a Browning M71 50 B&M Alaskan, 405 #13 CEB Solid at 2120 fps and its matching lever Raptor 365 gr at 2175 fps.

Before I could get on a buffalo however, a hippo presented an opportunity. I loaded the gun up with 4-5 of the 405 Solids and went to work. It was out of the water as well. Things progressed a little faster than we expected, and I filled the hippo full of bullets. Good Fun........ Bullets, cartridge and rifle performed very well.

A few days later we came across a small herd of buffalo. Problem is, they were running. A good bull ran across in front of me at about 35 yards or so. I am not a great running shot, I still never learned to Lead them, so I squared up on the shoulder, and the 365 Raptor hit just behind and blew through both lungs. He humped up and kept running, I hit him again with a 405 Solid, and he showed taking the bullet, but kept on going, slowing down now, and stopped behind some extremely thick brush about 30 yards out. Too thick to shoot, so we waiting. I was sure it was 30 minutes or more, but it was not, only a few minutes passed and he moved back under a larger tree and laid down. We worked our way around and passed the spot where he stood, and there was a pool of blood 3 ft in diameter if not more. I wonder how in the world he could stand that long? We sneak up to the tree he is under, but shadows and such, no scope, I can't see which end is which, I actually have to ask....... A few minutes pass, we move slightly forward a couple of steps and he stands up. Now its on, I hit him point on the shoulder, he turns, I hit him in the other shoulder, he turns around, I hit him twice more from the rear and he goes down. I load up again, approach, and this Warrior rolls over to face me for the final challenge, but he does not have it in him anymore. What a battle, what a Warrior of a buffalo....... This is the reason I love buffalo shooting so damn good, there is nothing like it on the planet, it can be all out war once you start that dance.

Rifle performed great, it was extremely fast, faster than a bolt gun and I used to be pretty damn fast with a bolt gun. The first shot with the 365 Raptor was perfect double lung, and we found the bullet sticking out of the hide on the far side, I just picked it out with my fingers. It had done a great job.

The second round while he was still running with the 405 Solid had hit too far back, and blew through the midsection and exited. But later, we learned we had shot straight through a 3 inch diameter tree in front of me at 10 yards, bullet passed through, hit buffalo midsection, passed completely through and exited buffalo as well.

The other 4 solids hit hard, you could tell at every shot and I kept hammering until I ran out anyway, fortunately he was down. I recovered one of those ..............and of course the first 365 Raptor base.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, especially if we live long enough and we are smart enough to understand it. After this shootout with the buffalo, I decided any large game in the future, such as hippo, buffalo or similar, I would use nothing but the big flat nose solids. Having pressure limitations and cartridge limitations, I feel much better with that added penetration one gets with the solids at lower velocities these cartridges are running. Now of course if you are talking thinner skin dangerous game, bears, lions and what have you, then of course the Trauma inflicting bullets, like the Raptors and North Forks are dandy and preferred.

With a Lever Gun, you have to know what those limitations are. Same as with everything we do in the field, there are compromises one has to make to be successful in any endeavor, best advice is choose your bullet tech wisely for the mission in which you embark upon. Today we are blessed with the best bullets we have ever had to choose from.

 

[michael458]

Why is there no speaking softly and carrying a big stick chambered in 470 NE?

I was pondering guns I could have in classic cartridges (mostly rimmed), without double gun money, and it struck me. How is it that neither Winchester nor Marlin created a lever gun in a low pressure, high performance safari cartridge that you could load on Sunday and shoot all week? Your second shot would be slower than a double but arguably faster than a bolt and the double guys don't have two or three more after that for a charging animal.

Why not? Are you all hat and no Kudu?

Your question was answered by;

The NE cartridges are wide and long compared to the existing lever action cartridge. The action would be very unwieldy and a very long throw on it. Just not practical.

And in addition to the above answer, a totally new action would have to be designed, and built, and to be honest, there would never ever be enough demand to justify such expense. Currently there is no action available in which to do so.

In the early days of B&M, my buddy wanted a 500 S&W on a lever gun. Ok, well guess what, there was no action available to do this on. A Win 94 was too small, a Marlin 1895 or Win 1886 was too big, too long. Hence a new action had to be built and was done so some years later by Big Horn Armory. They thought there might be enough demand to do so, and they were correct on that point and build a superb rifle from what I understand. I'd like to have one myself, however with already having the 50 B&M Alaskan it kinda makes it a moot point.........

As for pressures, you can run a Marlin up to around 45000 PSI, I push the M71s just a tad bit to around 50000 PSI, but not more. Yes, some guns will hold more, at least for a short period of time, but overall one needs to stay within those limitation. What might work short term for one gun, will lock another up tight, leaving you with a major problem in your hands.

This is one reason it is so important to use proper designed bullets if you embark upon a serious mission.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I will have a more involved response when I do a hunt report.

The short answer:

A whole day of hiking...
A lot of miles...
A couple of blown stalks...
A 40 yard broadside shot on a big mature cow buffalo...
One shot from my Marlin GBL...
20ish yards later: dead cow buffalo.

 

[Green Chile]

I didn’t read all of the replies and side topics but I have hunted elephant successfully with a 50 Alaskan lever gun. However, I wouldn’t do it again and will be taking a 500ne double for elephant later thus year.

 

[WI-2021]

It was a decade later that I went back to Africa with a lever gun, specifically for Dangerous Game. This time with my own 50 B&M Alaskan... .500 caliber.

Early in the B&M series of .500 caliber rifles, it was decided between both JD Jones and myself that we needed a big lever cartridge in .500 caliber. We had a multitude of really good, decent bullets in .500 caliber, from the 500 S&W. One of those, and one of my favorites at the time was the 500 gr Hornady Flat Nose Soft. It was not a buffalo bullet, but it was a heavy hammer on everything thin skinned. When I first developed the Cartridge, that was my first bullet to work with, this was late 2006 and early 2007. Of course the cartridge is easy, take 51 Alaskan and squeeze it down to .500.
We used a M71, Marlin Guide, and my favorite Marlin with the pistol grip stock, all 18 inch barrels.

View attachment 538671View attachment 538670


Apologies, but the only photo I have currently of the Pistol grip gun is one taken by Layne Simpson featured in one of his articles on the 50 B&M Alaskan, Layne was quite taken with the guns and soon had one of his own built on a stainless pistol grip Marlin.........

View attachment 538666

I would not take the 50 B&M Alaskan to the field until 2013 however. I had a lot of bolt gun shooting to do before getting to that.

I found myself in South Africa first for a couple of weeks just playing around with the lever gun and other bigger bolt guns.

View attachment 538672

Then we went off to Zimbabwe, I wanted a buffalo with the Lever gun, one more time..........

Now I can tell you there is a tremendous amount of difference the way animals react to caliber. With all the bolt guns shooting rat calibers like .416 when compared to .458 caliber it was extremely notable, of course with .458 caliber on top. I saw exactly the same with increase from .458 to .500 caliber, with similar bullets at similar velocity.

In Zimbabwe I was shooting a Browning M71 50 B&M Alaskan, 405 #13 CEB Solid at 2120 fps and its matching lever Raptor 365 gr at 2175 fps.

Before I could get on a buffalo however, a hippo presented an opportunity. I loaded the gun up with 4-5 of the 405 Solids and went to work. It was out of the water as well. Things progressed a little faster than we expected, and I filled the hippo full of bullets. Good Fun........ Bullets, cartridge and rifle performed very well.

View attachment 538674View attachment 538668

A few days later we came across a small herd of buffalo. Problem is, they were running. A good bull ran across in front of me at about 35 yards or so. I am not a great running shot, I still never learned to Lead them, so I squared up on the shoulder, and the 365 Raptor hit just behind and blew through both lungs. He humped up and kept running, I hit him again with a 405 Solid, and he showed taking the bullet, but kept on going, slowing down now, and stopped behind some extremely thick brush about 30 yards out. Too thick to shoot, so we waiting. I was sure it was 30 minutes or more, but it was not, only a few minutes passed and he moved back under a larger tree and laid down. We worked our way around and passed the spot where he stood, and there was a pool of blood 3 ft in diameter if not more. I wonder how in the world he could stand that long? We sneak up to the tree he is under, but shadows and such, no scope, I can't see which end is which, I actually have to ask....... A few minutes pass, we move slightly forward a couple of steps and he stands up. Now its on, I hit him point on the shoulder, he turns, I hit him in the other shoulder, he turns around, I hit him twice more from the rear and he goes down. I load up again, approach, and this Warrior rolls over to face me for the final challenge, but he does not have it in him anymore. What a battle, what a Warrior of a buffalo....... This is the reason I love buffalo shooting so damn good, there is nothing like it on the planet, it can be all out war once you start that dance.

View attachment 538673

Rifle performed great, it was extremely fast, faster than a bolt gun and I used to be pretty damn fast with a bolt gun. The first shot with the 365 Raptor was perfect double lung, and we found the bullet sticking out of the hide on the far side, I just picked it out with my fingers. It had done a great job.

The second round while he was still running with the 405 Solid had hit too far back, and blew through the midsection and exited. But later, we learned we had shot straight through a 3 inch diameter tree in front of me at 10 yards, bullet passed through, hit buffalo midsection, passed completely through and exited buffalo as well.

The other 4 solids hit hard, you could tell at every shot and I kept hammering until I ran out anyway, fortunately he was down. I recovered one of those ..............and of course the first 365 Raptor base.

View attachment 538667View attachment 538669

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, especially if we live long enough and we are smart enough to understand it. After this shootout with the buffalo, I decided any large game in the future, such as hippo, buffalo or similar, I would use nothing but the big flat nose solids. Having pressure limitations and cartridge limitations, I feel much better with that added penetration one gets with the solids at lower velocities these cartridges are running. Now of course if you are talking thinner skin dangerous game, bears, lions and what have you, then of course the Trauma inflicting bullets, like the Raptors and North Forks are dandy and preferred.

With a Lever Gun, you have to know what those limitations are. Same as with everything we do in the field, there are compromises one has to make to be successful in any endeavor, best advice is choose your bullet tech wisely for the mission in which you embark upon. Today we are blessed with the best bullets we have ever had to choose from.

Excellent information, and that M71 is gorgeous!

 

[ChaplainChawley]

There is a nice segment on this topic on The Big Game Hunting Podcast.

Ep 205: Lever Action Rifles For Hunting Africa With Kevin Robertson

Apple | Google | iHeart | Spotify | Stitcher

thebiggamehuntingblog.com

Kevin Robertson makes some good points as to why lever guns are not well suited to Africa based on his experience. It’s worth a listen in any case.

I will check it out! Thank you. Based on your follow-up: The desert southwest was very dusty, too! In a comparison, how the gun would behave as rounds are fired wouldn't matter after you surpass the amount of ammunition loaded in its competitors. If it is POI, would it be relevant at under 50 yards? More on pressure later.

They make 470 and 475 Turnbull lever actions. Watched an episode of "Under Wild Skies" where Makris took a buffalo with one. Of course you will likely pay a small fortune for one. This is the rifle:

Under Wild Skies, Model 1886 Take Down PAST PRODUCT - No longer for sale - Turnbull Restoration

Tony Makris, host of ESPN’s “Under Wild Skies” and now, “Under Wild Skies Africa”, has joined forces with Doug Turnbull to produce a special edition lever action rifle. Doug is […]

www.turnbullrestoration.com

It's do-able for sure. There's nothing particularly special about making something like a 375HH in lever action to my understanding. It's just expensive to re-tool actions, barrels, ramps, etc.

With that, comes the market for them. Can't spend a ton of money and not recover it in sales.

Awesome!! Yes, unfortunately that is what makes this a "what if..." more than a "why not?". In pursuit of high value, a custom lever action would be about the same as a low-end double and I would defer to tradition and nostalgia at the given prices. It was absolutely possible; it simply wasn't pursued. 450NE or similar could have been developed into the same do-all cartridge for North American game in a lever action - except take dangerous game on safari, too. With today's components, it would be easy. Sure, we do fine with what did actually transpire but the lever action could have, and arguably should have, played a larger role.

As a teenager I was a lever action junkie. I wondered why no lever actions were used for military service. Many decades later and after a career in the US Marines, I have many rifles in my gun safes. While I can afford whatever I desire, there are no lever actions in my safes. Maybe because I learned to deliver accurate hits on target rapidly with bolt action.

For an African safari, simple it best. A bolt action is simple, and if based on a Mauser such as a Winchester Model 70 CRF, they are field maintainable. That also answers why in the bolt action military days a hundred years ago, there were no level actions in wide use in military service.

If one wants to shoot an elephant with a lever action, handgun, single shot, or whatever, knock yourself out.

I would argue that the lever gun SHOULD have been adopted by the military. What if our boys had taken lever guns into the India Wars or the Spanish-American war? After said outcome, what would have been different in Teddy's safari? How would that make modern hunting firearms look? Lever gun development was just barely ourside the firearms evolution window to have reached its full potential. Today, we shoot the same guns where development ceased at the turn of the century. Intermediate cartridges rule war-making to this date and those are a lever gun's purview - with much higher capacity than anything around at the time. Absurdly over-priced military contracts are rarely competent choices, to include small arms. There is a fascinating string of videos investigating the subject.

Talk to me in a couple days: I buffalo hunt tomorrow with my Marlin GBL. And on the subject of lever actions, a warthog and a kudu fell to my 1947 Savage 99 today.

Looking forward to it!

If we're concerned about the combination of big enough cartridge and fast follow up, why not simply carry a Barrett .50 caliber semi-auto? We might need to shorten up the as is barrel length and work on the current bullet offerings. Actually, now that I think about it, I doubt the bullet design would make much noticeable difference.

Because they weigh 30 pounds. A lever gun is far more handy. The dismissive sarcasm of a subject that hardly departs from the philosophical makes me doubt you undertand the military purpose of the term "schwerpunkt". Heck, you take your .50 BMG... I'll bring an MG42

The question isn' why not use a DG lever action, but rather why.

The answer is simple. The proof is in the pudding. It's far easier to to drive a properly weighted bullet to the appropriate speed that is capable of killing a DG animal from a bolt action or double rifle than a lever gun given the pressure limitations.

There are several on this site who have taken DG with a lever gun, and I applaude them. It's just not something for most people to consider when the stakes are so high. Hogs sure, whitetail no problem...dangerous game is another category.

Big bore cartridges almost all run lower than 30-06 and lever guns have been chambered in a number of similar cartridges. I've seen lots of discussion and concern about pressure but DG cartridges hit hard and blow softly. I think it's more a solution looking for a problem. Lever guns are uniquely American. Making one to take to Africa isn't profitable or historically relevant today... but what if?

Non-traditional, but Browning makes the BLR in .300WM. A rebarrel to .458WM should be doable without too much trouble. .375 or .416 Ruger might be a bit tougher to get to feed but would probably work, as well as various wildcats. Recoil would probably knock you out from under your hat though. Not sure why you would, but you probably could.

An attitude I can get behind!

 

[BeeMaa]

Big bore cartridges almost all run lower than 30-06 and lever guns have been chambered in a number of similar cartridges. I've seen lots of discussion and concern about pressure but DG cartridges hit hard and blow softly. I think it's more a solution looking for a problem. Lever guns are uniquely American. Making one to take to Africa isn't profitable or historically relevant today... but what if?

You can not compare a 30-06 that was designed to operate in a bolt action rifle and not legal for use to hunt DG, with a lever action DG legal cartridge. It's not apples to apples.

Take a look at the pressures for big bore cartridges (above .400 caliber) designed to operate in a bolt action vs what a lever action can handle. The numbers are not even close. A 450MARLIN (designed in 2000) can not compare ballistically to a 458WM that was designed in 1956.

Theodore Roosevelt took a Winchester 1895 to Africa in 1909 Wouldn't that be historically relevant? Was it a good idea? He obviously thought it was. Along with many of the AH members here who have chosen to do so. But doing so means there are limitations vs what would be capable with a bolt gun.

There are limitations of any platform, no matter what they are...double rifle, bolt action, lever action, single shot or even archery. Staying within the limits is alway easier when the limits are high.

Might want to start checking your facts before posting or I'll have to send your resume off to CNN.

 

[Green Chile]

There are limitations to everything as BeeMaa well stated. As someone who has been there and done that with a lever gun and elephant, I learned a lot and would not repeat the exercise. We had to push the lever gun well beyond design limitations and I broke it many times in the process. We learned how to build a stronger lever gun in PART but not in WHOLE. Many misc details told us we were in a sketchy area for safety and practical application of the design. Even though we prepped everything we could think of, in the actual hunt my lever gun turned into a single shot at the end of the hunt. Thankfully, I was done shooting but we didn't know for sure. The cow herd tried to find us and that could have gone very badly. So I will continue with elephant and DG in general but not with a lever gun design.