Why not a Dangerous Game lever?

[PerH]

I will check it out! Thank you. Based on your follow-up: The desert southwest was very dusty, too! In a comparison, how the gun would behave as rounds are fired wouldn't matter after you surpass the amount of ammunition loaded in its competitors. If it is POI, would it be relevant at under 50 yards? More on pressure later.

Awesome!! Yes, unfortunately that is what makes this a "what if..." more than a "why not?". In pursuit of high value, a custom lever action would be about the same as a low-end double and I would defer to tradition and nostalgia at the given prices. It was absolutely possible; it simply wasn't pursued. 450NE or similar could have been developed into the same do-all cartridge for North American game in a lever action - except take dangerous game on safari, too. With today's components, it would be easy. Sure, we do fine with what did actually transpire but the lever action could have, and arguably should have, played a larger role.

I would argue that the lever gun SHOULD have been adopted by the military. What if our boys had taken lever guns into the India Wars or the Spanish-American war? After said outcome, what would have been different in Teddy's safari? How would that make modern hunting firearms look? Lever gun development was just barely ourside the firearms evolution window to have reached its full potential. Today, we shoot the same guns where development ceased at the turn of the century. Intermediate cartridges rule war-making to this date and those are a lever gun's purview - with much higher capacity than anything around at the time. Absurdly over-priced military contracts are rarely competent choices, to include small arms. There is a fascinating string of videos investigating the subject.

Looking forward to it!

Because they weigh 30 pounds. A lever gun is far more handy. The dismissive sarcasm of a subject that hardly departs from the philosophical makes me doubt you undertand the military purpose of the term "schwerpunkt". Heck, you take your .50 BMG... I'll bring an MG42

Big bore cartridges almost all run lower than 30-06 and lever guns have been chambered in a number of similar cartridges. I've seen lots of discussion and concern about pressure but DG cartridges hit hard and blow softly. I think it's more a solution looking for a problem. Lever guns are uniquely American. Making one to take to Africa isn't profitable or historically relevant today... but what if?

An attitude I can get behind!

If you wanna read up on services that adopted levers West Mounted Police in Canada

Ottoman army adopted Win 66s m73 in thousands . Battle of Plevna is a classic Winchester episode.

Aswell as Rhodesian Police, Mounted troops and Native Constabled used much 66s,73,76 and so on. But .303 were mainstay and mandatory to have . Win m95 sold much of them in .303 over there.

https://arthuralphin.com/videos/

HAve a look at " Custer's Last Stand" episode.

He describes the few essential options quite good there.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

The Russian army used the 95 Winchester in 7.62 54r and it poorly suited for military use. The U.S army tested it in 30-06 and found the same thing.

 

[colorado]

I know there's a hunter on another forum that's taken cape buffalo with a lever action 405 Winchester. He's a very experienced DG hunter and I don't think he did it as a stunt.

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

I know there's a hunter on another forum that's taken cape buffalo with a lever action 405 Winchester. He's a very experienced DG hunter and I don't think he did it as a stunt.

CRS? If so he also has used an 1886 in 45-90 with good results.

 

[ChaplainChawley]

You can not compare a 30-06 that was designed to operate in a bolt action rifle and not legal for use to hunt DG, with a lever action DG legal cartridge. It's not apples to apples.

Take a look at the pressures for big bore cartridges (above .400 caliber) designed to operate in a bolt action vs what a lever action can handle. The numbers are not even close. A 450MARLIN (designed in 2000) can not compare ballistically to a 458WM that was designed in 1956.

Theodore Roosevelt took a Winchester 1895 to Africa in 1909 Wouldn't that be historically relevant? Was it a good idea? He obviously thought it was. Along with many of the AH members here who have chosen to do so. But doing so means there are limitations vs what would be capable with a bolt gun.

There are limitations of any platform, no matter what they are...double rifle, bolt action, lever action, single shot or even archery. Staying within the limits is alway easier when the limits are high.

Might want to start checking your facts before posting or I'll have to send your resume off to CNN.

I am sorry you were offended. This is supposed to be a fun thought exercise.
The cartridge itself is not the point... The apple that can be compared is a common pressure measurement. .30-06 is spec'd at 62,000 and .458 WM is 60,000. The 1895 came chambered in .30-06 and other high-pressure spitzer bolt action cartridges. The cartridges I opened the conversation with run in the 40,000s. Therefore, if not one of the platforms we have available today, what if lever actions were allowed to be developed to their pinnacle by the time Teddy took a lever gun to Africa? It was stopped early in favor of semi-automatics. The platform can be made to handle the pressures involved. Some have with varying success! The large bore of DG cartridges permits them to run at relatively low pressure for the power they put out. My point is, pressure is not the biggest concern in the conversation.

They are all liars, so if CNN paid the most and I was interested in being a liar I'd gladly work for them over the Blaze or Fox.

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

If I ever realize my dream of hunting Africa, in my humble opinion that I am very open to correction on, I would think a modern 1886 chambered in 45-90 using solids in the 350-400gr weight carefully developed to run appx 2000fps should work quite well.

If the 45-70 can be right there nipping at the heels of the 458WM using level III (Ruger #1) loading, the 45-90 should be able to handily achieve the same but at lower pressure. This is not something I would consider attempting with an antique '86. But a modern '86 is overwhelmingly considered to be capable of handling 50k psi loadings. My current loads for playing around here at home indicate I am nowhere near that upper limit but still getting 2350fps over the chrono with a 300gr JHP, which would absolutely NOT be a load I would attempt to use on DG.

Member CRS has really done his homework on the 45-90 and has proven it in the field. I've corresponded with him through other forums and he has helped me along the way of developing my basic smokeless 45-90 loads

And then there is the 50-110WCF. My rifle is a Takedown and I got a quote from Turnbull on the cost of building a second front half in 50-110 for my 1886 which would give me dual caliber choices that can be switched out in one minute or less. The 50-110 is capable of pretty astounding energy numbers from a modern 1886. If I recall, I've seen it launch 450gr projectiles north of 2500fps. A properly constructed bullet for the intended game at that weight and speed should be equally as effective to 500NE and similar, some possible hair splitting aside.

And then there is Doug Turnbull's own cartridge, the 475 Turnbull. I live just a couple hours drive from his shop and dropped my rifle off there personally. In the showroom are many beautiful trophies of his from all over the world, including Africa. Among them, two impressive Cape Buff he took with his 1886 chambered in 475 Turnbull displayed with pics taken on site moments after the kill.

I aspire to own a DR in 500NE one day. But if I were to take a lever rifle to Africa, the 1886 would be my only choice. Using properly loaded 45-90 and/or 50-110, I would not feel the least bit undergunned. And I would be well practiced in whichever is used before getting off the plane and heading to the bush.

 

[fsrmg1]

I have two lever guns that I would consider dangerous game rifles. Though elephants and rhino are not on my list.

First is an original Winchester model 95 in 405 WCF. The other is a modern Winchester model 1886 Takedown Deluxe that I had Turnbull go over and turn it into a .50-110 Win Ex.

My working loads for the 405 is a 350 grainer with enough Viht N530 to get near 2250 fps. The rifle has a .413" groove diameter, so I swage down .416 Swifts. Pressure is just under 45k psi.

My .50-110 likes Woodleigh 500 grainers with enough H322 to deliver about 2100 fps. Once my Woodleigh stock is gone, I'll likely switch to the Swift 450 grainers if I can't source any more.

Both rifles feed flawlessly and cycle as smooth as butter. The loads aren't excessive, and I have good case life.

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

I have two lever guns that I would consider dangerous game rifles. Though elephants and rhino are not on my list.

First is an original Winchester model 95 in 405 WCF. The other is a modern Winchester model 1886 Takedown Deluxe that I had Turnbull go over and turn it into a .50-110 Win Ex.

My working loads for the 405 is a 350 grainer with enough Viht N530 to get near 2250 fps. The rifle has a .413" groove diameter, so I swage down .416 Swifts. Pressure is just under 45k psi.

My .50-110 likes Woodleigh 500 grainers with enough H322 to deliver about 2100 fps. Once my Woodleigh stock is gone, I'll likely switch to the Swift 450 grainers if I can't source any more.

Both rifles feed flawlessly and cycle as smooth as butter. The loads aren't excessive, and I have good case life.

Pic of said Turnbull 1886??

 

[BeeMaa]

@RIDE-RED350r - I'd highly recommend you take a look at the Swift A-Frame .458 caliber 400 grain bullets for use on DG. Although a bit under the normal SD most would like of .300, at .272 it's not far off. Plus it would give you the excellent expansion and straight line penetration that the SAF is known for.

If the 45-90 has enough case volume, maybe step up to the .458 caliber 450 grain SAF that will put the SD at .307. As long as you can achieve around 2200 fps, you should be in the sweet spot.

 

[fsrmg1]

Here are my two beauties.

Winchester 1886

Winchester 1895

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

Here are my two beauties.

Winchester 1886
View attachment 542978


Winchester 1895
View attachment 542979

Beautiful rifles Sir! Thank you for sharing

 

[fourfive8]

“Load on Sunday and shoot all week”? Sounds like a Henry or Evans.

Remington rolling block, Martini-Henry, Sharps 74 falling bock, Winchester M 1885 are all examples of old “lever action” designs that could be or were modified to handle, big, low pressure rounds… albeit in the necessary single shot form. It is the “magazine repeater” part of the equation that becomes problematic, if for no other reason than practical size and scaling limitations. The basic Winchester 86/71 action came close. The Winchester 95 also, but was always somewhat of a “Rube Goldberg”… not withstanding it’s use by TR.

So a question in response to the OP’s question would be, “why”?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

“Load on Sunday and shoot all week”? Sounds like a Henry or Evans.

Remington rolling block, Martini-Henry, Sharps 74 falling bock, Winchester M 1885 are all examples of old “lever action” designs that could be or were modified to handle, big, low pressure rounds… albeit in the necessary single shot form. It is the “magazine repeater” part of the equation that becomes problematic, if for no other reason than practical size and scaling limitations. The basic Winchester 86/71 action came close. The Winchester 95 also, but was always somewhat of a “Rube Goldberg”… not withstanding it’s use by TR.

So a question in response to the OP’s question would be, “why”?

What an odd question.. What do you mean “why”? His question has already been answered. Unless of course you are asking why he’s asking the question in the first place? I should think there are some fairly obvious reasons for such a question that don’t really need to be questioned

 

[TOBY458]

@RIDE-RED350r - I'd highly recommend you take a look at the Swift A-Frame .458 caliber 400 grain bullets for use on DG. Although a bit under the normal SD most would like of .300, at .272 it's not far off. Plus it would give you the excellent expansion and straight line penetration that the SAF is known for.

If the 45-90 has enough case volume, maybe step up to the .458 caliber 450 grain SAF that will put the SD at .307. As long as you can achieve around 2200 fps, you should be in the sweet spot.

The only reservation I'd have about the Swift AF in a lever action is the spitzer style shape of the bullet. Probably not safe to use in a tubular magazine. Although the 458 bullets may be too blunt for it to matter.

 

[Joker12]

“Load on Sunday and shoot all week”? Sounds like a Henry or Evans.

Remington rolling block, Martini-Henry, Sharps 74 falling bock, Winchester M 1885 are all examples of old “lever action” designs that could be or were modified to handle, big, low pressure rounds… albeit in the necessary single shot form. It is the “magazine repeater” part of the equation that becomes problematic, if for no other reason than practical size and scaling limitations. The basic Winchester 86/71 action came close. The Winchester 95 also, but was always somewhat of a “Rube Goldberg”… not withstanding it’s use by TR.

So a question in response to the OP’s question would be, “why”?

A DG lever based on a Winchester 86 or 71 does have a couple of things in their favor. Magazine capacity is one and the ability of the hunter to refill a partially empty rifle without taking it out of action temporarily is another. All DG doesn't reside in Africa and the big levers have been relied on in other parts of the DG world as reliable stoppers for a long time.

 

[fsrmg1]

The only reservation I'd have about the Swift AF in a lever action is the spitzer style shape of the bullet. Probably not safe to use in a tubular magazine. Although the 458 bullets may be too blunt for it to matter.

Swift has a line AF with flat noses designed for lever guns. Very good move on their part. I've already bought a couple boxes of their 450 grain .510" for my 50-110.

 

[BeeMaa]

The only reservation I'd have about the Swift AF in a lever action is the spitzer style shape of the bullet. Probably not safe to use in a tubular magazine. Although the 458 bullets may be too blunt for it to matter.

Swift has a line AF with flat noses designed for lever guns. Very good move on their part. I've already bought a couple boxes of their 450 grain .510" for my 50-110.

See? There you go. They work!

EDIT - Swift makes bullets specifically for lever action rifles and .458 caliber only goes up to 350 grain with a SD of .238. Too bad lever guns can't use the normal bullets. I suppose this puts one more tick in the "good reasons not to use a lever action rifle for DG" column.

 

[fsrmg1]

You can always have a swage/bump die made up to reprofile the bullet shape to better suite the leger action. I had one made up by C&H, where I can use it to reshape just about any lead core bullet to flat nose profile specifically designed for the 50-110. Here is a photo of before and after of .510" Bertram 450 and 535 grainers. Once done, I use a Lee factory crip die and not worry about the cannelure location. All works great.

 

[Brian]

I agree with Joker12 and others.

Also, as you know I like the 50-110 win. with "modern" bullets for cape buffalo.
Some of the newer mono-metal bullets on the market will turn the old .458's and .50's into dragon slayers and they will turn marginal lever actions into good cape buffalo rifles.

After I got into North Fork Cup Point Solids and CEB Raptors and Solids in .500 cal. for cape buffalo, and ran them at moderate lever action velocities, under 2,000 fps, in my flimsy/cheap break open single shot rifle, I was suddenly re-educated on what made a "best" bullet. Most of my old traditional concepts about terminal performance of bullets went out the window. I believe that the bullet design, construction and diameter are the most important factors for killing cape buffalo, which are the only African DG that I have hunted. ( "The bullet is the only thing that touches the buffalo", as they say.)

Another way to look at it is, "Imagine what our new pick-up trucks would drive/ride like if we took off the modern radial ply tires and put on a set of bias ply tires like we used in the 50's?"
Bullet technology has changed like everything else. These old lever action rifles and modern mono bullets are a match made in heaven.

I realize that there are many successful cape buffalo hunters with much more experience than me who see it differently. That's good, without differences of opinions we would not even have horse races.

 

[Inline6]

The main reason is demand. We are at a point manufacturers are doing away with their larger bore bolt rifles. Why would anyone want to spend the R&D for a project with such a limited number of potential customers?