why do people not use premium bullets?

[ftrovato]

I have killed a lot of stuff with core lokts. The way I see it is the bullet needs to be tailored to the game you are shooting. For hogs deer and stuff like that most cheap bullets are just fine. For stuff that needs more penetration or exact performance standards I will use the premium bullet that is designed to deliver that result. I am not spending premium ammo money on bullets I am going to shoot about 150 -300 hogs per year with. It’s not needed so why do it?

I've killed more deer when I was a kid with core-locks out of a 30-06 than I have fingers and toes. One of the elk guides in camp out West a few years ago recommends them as a first choice for elk. He claims he has found many in elk on the off shoulder or in the hide mushroomed perfectly. Hard to argue with his qualified experience.

 

[Phil Giordano]

To me, the big issue is that many actually use premium bullet, but aren't able to match them with the game. A ballistic tip IS a premium bullet, but not an Elk bullet! Same way, a .416 TSX is indeed a marvelous premium bullet, but no way a Lion bullet! "Premium" is a very personal concept, and the structure of a bullet itself means nothing if you can't match it with game, caliber, impact velocity. In a 308, a good old Sierra Game king is (in my opinion) a far better "premium" bullet for a whitetail/fallow deer size game, than a barnes tsx. Moreover, my impression is that - on the opposite - many hunters use bullets that are tougher than needed, assuming a premium performance, when they would do much better, choosing a traditional soft point.
Just my opinion.

 

[WAB]

To me, the big issue is that many actually use premium bullet, but aren't able to match them with the game. A ballistic tip IS a premium bullet, but not an Elk bullet! Same way, a .416 TSX is indeed a marvelous premium bullet, but no way a Lion bullet! "Premium" is a very personal concept, and the structure of a bullet itself means nothing if you can't match it with game, caliber, impact velocity. In a 308, a good old Sierra Game king is (in my opinion) a far better "premium" bullet for a whitetail/fallow deer size game, than a barnes tsx. Moreover, my impression is that - on the opposite - many hunters use bullets that are tougher than needed, assuming a premium performance, when they would do much better, choosing a traditional soft point.
Just my opinion.

Exactly right. Understanding terminal ballistics and bullet design is critical to using the right tool for the job at hand.

I will add, that early in my safari career I took multiple loads for the same caliber in a misguided attempt to take this principle to the nth degree. I have since learned to take A-Frames for everything and a handful of solids (you never know when an unintended elephant hunt may pop up).

 

[SFRanger7GP]

you have indeed been fortunate... it hasnt happened to me a lot... but I had a hartebeest that had to be shot a second time.. first shot was a kill shot.. but no one bothered to tell the hartebeest it seemed.. and after getting doubled lunged by a 300gr barnes TSX from a 375 H&H, he stood back up and started moving, motivating a second shot to put him down..

Ive also had a couple of hogs over the years that required a second shot.. both would have died.. but they were shot slightly to the rear and a second shot put them down quickly and seemed to be the right thing to do..

then there was the terminator blesbok my wife shot in 2016.. she tagged him a little to the rear with a 308 (autopsy showed she got a lung though).. he took off like a rocket.. the PH then put a 375 H&H into him after we tracked him for probably a mile or more.. and he took off again... I then put a 375 H&H into with a neck shot maybe an hour after that and he finally expired..

I wont complain.. I can only recall those 4x times really feeling like a follow up shot was absolutely necessary.. out of several hundred hunts, thats not too bad... but there have probably been another half dozen times when I had a mortally wounded animal down, and felt it was the right thing to do to go on and put a second shot in them as well just to end the process (animal hanging on to life, but suffering).. I can think of a texas dall sheep that I clipped a lung on and also spined (uphill, angled shot).. he dropped in his tracks.. but was still kicking 5 minutes later.. it was just time to put another round in him and put things to an end.. a wildebeest in South Africa was similar.. dropped him in his tracks.. but 2-3 minutes later he was still kicking.. so he got another shot.. cape buffalo got an insurance shot for obvious reasons.. etc..etc..

I believe if it moves, it gets another bullet. Especially if I am shooting a double rifle. Can't have them barrels getting uneven wear. I had a PH tell me one time, "I have so many clients that I wish would stay on the rifle, reload and shoot again. This is my first time to wish a client wouldn't."
Followed by "You feel it's mandatory to shoot everything twice with your double?" It's a PH we have hunted with a few times, so he and I have a lot of fun ragging on each other non-stop.

Back on topic. I love Barnes TSX/TTSX. I have the confidence that I can put a round in the vitals regardless of the animal's position when I use Barnes. Do I always use Barnes? No. I also use Norma Oryx a lot, even in Africa in 275 Rigby and 9.3x74R. I have had a few rifles that did not like Barnes bullets, so I sent them to a new home. On another note, I have found if a rifle will not shoot a Remington Core Lok bullet accurately, it probably will not shoot anything with good accuracy without additional work. That has been my experience.

Mama's 275 Rigby loves 170gr Oryx and Nosler Partition 175gr. Since Nosler appears to be out of the hunting bullet industry for now (and what they do have is as expensive as Barnes/Swift), we are also using Hornady 175gr RNSP. In 30-06, I will be shooting Hornady and Remington 220gr RNSP bullets as well as Nosler Partition 200gr. I always prefer the heavier bullets. These bullets at mild velocities (2400-2500fps) are more than adequate for deer, pigs and plains game. We plan to do all our deer and pig hunting this year with these classic bullets.

When we head back to Africa it will be 170gr Oryx in the 275, 285gr Oryx in the 9.3x74R and Barnes 350 or 400gr TSX in the 416 Rigby.

Safe hunting

 

[mark-hunter]

If there's a more than fair chance of a "close" shot where impact velocity is going to be closer to 3k fps than 2500 fps, probably a better idea to go with bonded premiums or monos.

This is exactly my estimate. around 3000 fps is threshold where premium bullet should be chosen.
The fragmentation of bullet is cause of penetration loss, agreed. Premium bullet does not fragment, and is holding his mass, thus holds the penetration.
We are on the same page.

 

[CoElkHunter]

This will probably get me roasted over a braai, campfire or forced to run through a hot coal bed, but due to an unforeseen circumstance, I shot my first African PG animal (cull ewe Impala) with my PH’s well worn suppressed Howa 1500 in .243 WINCHESTER with a nice Leupold scope on it. The bullet …. an 87gr Hornady V Max dropped her like a sack of potatoes in the chest (frontal shot) at about 100 yards. I was absolutely amazed! My PH told me he used that same load for culling with head shots. I never used his rifle again after I got my .300 WINCHESTER MAGNUM sorted out, but got me thinking (for a second) about smaller cartridges for some smaller big game animals. I do know someone who has shot 6 elk with a 6mm Remington using 100gr Core Lokts. I not that adventurous, but has to make one wonder?

 

[mdwest]

You’re not alone…

My daughters first African animal was an impala… she shot it with a .243 with hornady eld-x…

She’s a girl though…

 

[colorado]

This is exactly my estimate. around 3000 fps is threshold where premium bullet should be chosen.
The fragmentation of bullet is cause of penetration loss, agreed. Premium bullet does not fragment, and is holding his mass, thus holds the penetration.
We are on the same page.

I agree. For a 45-70, or a 257 Roberts or 7mm Mauser CoreLokts are wonderful bullets. Or a 30-06 shooting 220g Corelokts as well.

 

[Safari Dave]

IMO, most, but not all, of the "premium" bullets are are designed for maximum penetration and weight retention.

An experienced, savvy hunter, knows that deep penetration and controlled expansion is sometimes counterproductive to the desired outcome, with many variables that can be thrown into the situation.

Sometimes a well-placed shot, with a "cup & core" bullet is exactly the right combination for what the hunter is trying to achieve.

 

[Tbitty]

If there's a more than fair chance of a "close" shot where impact velocity is going to be closer to 3k fps than 2500 fps, probably a better idea to go with bonded premiums or monos.

It's fairly widely accepted that bullet mass is the key to penetration.

Consider a (admittedly unrealistic) scenario where you shoot a 200 gr bullet at an animal, and on impact, it breaks into 20 pieces, each weighing 10 grains. All that's likely to happen is inflicting a nasty, non-fatal flesh wound. But if that 200 gr bullet retains 95% of its mass, you can probably expect a total pass-through and not be able to recover the bullet.

You have a 308 Win firing 180 gr Game Kings at 2500 fps vs a 300 RUM firing the same bullet at 3350 fps. Target is at 75 yards - the 308 is probably going to pole axe that deer. Who knows what will ultimately happen to the one fired from the RUM, but I'd bet a paycheck it catastrophically fails at, or shortly after, impact.

Once again, the target animal has everything to do with how I would view your above statement.

Lets say a whitetail deer or impala: A "premium" bullet with controlled expansion or a mono like TSX at 3000 fps is about the same as shooting a fmj. You'll get basically no expansion, and very little energy transfer. Smaller blood trail and less room for error. ... take a basic soft point and it will open up, transfer energy, and at that speed still give an easy pass through with nice big exit hole. Much better choice is the basic soft point.

Go the other end and shoot a moose or Eland or other larger animal with good thick skin and tough bones. Soft point now has less room for error because even at top speed its opening and slowing down quickly. May not pass through and could hit a rib or something to stop it completely before reaching vivitals. But, the deep penetration and slow expansion of a premium bullet will maximize effect and allows a bigger target for a lethal shot.

Using your examples of 308 and 300 RUM with GameKing bullets, I'd choose that option over a slow opener "premium" bullet every time on the light game, and happily match that paycheck bet about bullet failure. I've shot whitetail deer for years with 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tips in my 30.06 from 10 to 400 yards with 100% pass throughs including on the occasional shoulder hit (which i hate because of meat loss). But for the big, heavy game your post is absolutely correct. Context of application is critical.

 

[Safari Dave]

Gamekings were the ticket for 6 of 12 of the plains game that I have taken.

I opted for less expansion and more penetration for the other 6. If I had to do it again, I would have taken all of them with Gamekings.

I even shot one with with a .416 solid to minimize pelt destruction. I might have well have taken him with a hand grenade!

 

[grand veneur]

I have also shot some game with GK bullets from Sierra, especially the 250gr GK bullet with the cartridges 340 Weatherby Magnum and 338 Lapua Magnum.

This bullet develops its potential especially at longer distances and that also of heavy game like Wapitis and even Muskox. I shot a Muskox with it and the cartridge 340 Weatherby Magnum at shortest distance and noticed the destructive effect of such shots with this type of bullet at these distances. Nevertheless, the penetration was depth enough to kill the animal with one shot.

I also tried to load so-called premium bullets, but at long range I never achieved the accuracy that I had with the 250gr GK bullet from Sierra.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Ignorance......

@IvW
@gajie270
I can understand it and it sure ain't ignorance.
I use a non premium for 99% of my hunting and range time.
The game I shoot feral animals like pigs goats and deer can't tell the difference when hit with a bog standard Hornady round nose,SST or Interlock, let alone a Barnes TTSX or swift AFrame. The game dies just as dead with the cheaper bullets and sometimes quicker.
I can't see the sense of using premium bullets for volume feral control. Besides that I just plain can't afford premium bullets for all my hunting. A box of Hornady 25gn round nose or spire points for my Whelen are 65 bucks for 100. A box of 50 Barnes are 140 dollars, AFrames dearer again and the last time Iooked 25 250gn partition was 140 dollars.
Woodleigh and Atomic 29 are 66 to 80 dollars a box of 50 so that's not bad for premium.

Basic cup and core give me more shooting for my dollars.
In the good ol USA Speers are regarded as cheap bullets but in Australia the last box of speer 250gr hot core was 88 dollars for 50 and that was a few year ago.
Woodleigh PPSP bonded are cheaper.
To me it's a matter of economics.
For my hunt in Namibia I used Accubonds, Woodleigh and the good old fashioned plain Jane basic Hornady round nose.
I can assure you my oryx didn't argue when that cheap arse round nose tore thru him and left a golf ball size hole out the other side.
To me it about marching bullet to game and in Australia we don't need the premium for 99% of or hunting.
But hey that's me.
Bob

 

[mark-hunter]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen

You said everything except caliber.
What caliber used? 35 Whelen?

​

 

[DG870]

I’ve never hunted anywhere except the central US but when I go out I know before hand what I’m going to hunt. I either go deer hunting or elk hunting or antelope hunting so I can pick the cartridge/bullet combination based on the species that I’m hunting. I hunt mostly deer and antelope and use a 270 with 140 grain bullets, 30-06 with 165 grain bullets, 280 with 139 grain bullets or 7 Mag with 160 grain bullets. Cup and core bullets work fine in this situation and deer aren’t hard to kill with an adequate caliber with medium to heavy for caliber bullets. The only true bullet failure ive had in 50 years of hunting was a 120 grain Game King out of a 257 Roberts. It was probably my failure because I hit a big mule deer low in the shoulder. It broke the shoulder but didn’t penetrate the body cavity. A Nosler or Swift would have probably held together and took out the heart. I killed it with the second shot but sold the rifle soon after.

From What I read here, African hunting is more like a smorgasbord and you would have to be prepared for the biggest, heaviest, toughest animal on your list because you could find it at any time during your hunt. The critters on your hunt list would determine your cartridge bullet choices. I can see where larger calibers and premium bullets would make sense for African hunts.

 

[rookhawk]

something I can't fathom is how people can spend thousands of dollars on a hunt, sometimes thousands on rifles, optics, and all other kinds of gear. and in the same breath, will put a box of Remington core lokts or another budget cup and core bullet in their rifle. And what makes that worse today is that there are affordable premium bullet options now, even in factory ammo, such as the Federal Fusion which is still affordable but uses a better bonded bullet. and I can't deny that standard cup and core bullets are proven for many kinds of game such as whitetail and smaller big games. however, I also can't deny that a premium bullet of any sort will still work better on any game species larger.
I know I'm kind of preaching to the choir with this one but I rest my case.

Sometimes people are sloppy planners or cheapskates, in other situations they are purposefully seeking a "lousy" bullet.

If they make one, a Core-Lokt would be an excellent choice in 375 for leopard where failure to expand is a real problem.

Nosler Ballistic tips are a pretty flimsy bullet too, but quite ideal for the smaller white tail found in the southern US.

For most African game, a Swift A-Frame is the toughest bullet out there with the most weight retention...sort of the opposite of the examples above.

So people using lousy bullets are either idiots or geniuses depending on the use case.

 

[grand veneur]

...

From What I read here, African hunting is more like a smorgasbord and you would have to be prepared for the biggest, heaviest, toughest animal on your list because you could find it at any time during your hunt. The critters on your hunt list would determine your cartridge bullet choices. I can see where larger calibers and premium bullets would make sense for African hunts.

Absolutely true, but there's no need to exaggerate. Many classic non so-called premium bullets will do the job too, and for the very large calibers often only classic SP and FMJ bullets are available.

If you shot buffalo with a classic SP bullet you are neither an idiot nor a genius. There are enough people who claim that the first shot placement is what counts, and if it goes deep enough, everything is fine. Classic SP bullets also do something like that, even on Big Game. Use enough gun !

 

[Bonk]

I read the first page and then skipped to the end so this may have already been said. Premium bullets/ammo haven't exactly been in ready supply lately. Especially in calibers the members of this forum prefer. I buy them when I can find them.

 

[Daisy]

To me, the big issue is that many actually use premium bullet, but aren't able to match them with the game. A ballistic tip IS a premium bullet, but not an Elk bullet! Same way, a .416 TSX is indeed a marvelous premium bullet, but no way a Lion bullet! "Premium" is a very personal concept, and the structure of a bullet itself means nothing if you can't match it with game, caliber, impact velocity. In a 308, a good old Sierra Game king is (in my opinion) a far better "premium" bullet for a whitetail/fallow deer size game, than a barnes tsx. Moreover, my impression is that - on the opposite - many hunters use bullets that are tougher than needed, assuming a premium performance, when they would do much better, choosing a traditional soft point.
Just my opinion.

You nailed it

 

[Daisy]

This will probably get me roasted over a braai, campfire or forced to run through a hot coal bed, but due to an unforeseen circumstance, I shot my first African PG animal (cull ewe Impala) with my PH’s well worn suppressed Howa 1500 in .243 WINCHESTER with a nice Leupold scope on it. The bullet …. an 87gr Hornady V Max dropped her like a sack of potatoes in the chest (frontal shot) at about 100 yards. I was absolutely amazed! My PH told me he used that same load for culling with head shots. I never used his rifle again after I got my .300 WINCHESTER MAGNUM sorted out, but got me thinking (for a second) about smaller cartridges for some smaller big game animals. I do know someone who has shot 6 elk with a 6mm Remington using 100gr Core Lokts. I not that adventurous, but has to make one wonder?

A lot of people I know take only head or spine shots for whitetail now.