why do people not use premium bullets?

[C.W. Richter]

That's ironic. I find that me old Sakos' love Nosler. My Old Weatherby's hate Barnes even when I try to just the seat of the bullet for the free bore jump. However, Barnes are real killers. They simply do a spectacular job at any range with any caliber. Noslers do a fine job inspite of their reputation for shedding too much weight in the partition bullets.

Rarely do i see Barnes grouping better than other more traditional designs. TSX would shoot 0.75-1" groups, while the original SPs would be mickey mouse 0.5, same for TTSX (most popular today, and they do open better), and MRX/LRX outshine that w/ proper handloading. I've also had guns that did NOT like the Barnes at all. My Son's 7 RSAUM does NOT like Nos PTs at all (likely too high V and too short a bbl!) Sometimes, the rifles like what they like. A friend's Browning .308 shoots cheapy Win silver box (formerly $10/box at Kmart) ammo 5-shots touching, so he goes with that!

 

[thriller]

something I can't fathom is how people can spend thousands of dollars on a hunt, sometimes thousands on rifles, optics, and all other kinds of gear. and in the same breath, will put a box of Remington core lokts or another budget cup and core bullet in their rifle. And what makes that worse today is that there are affordable premium bullet options now, even in factory ammo, such as the Federal Fusion which is still affordable but uses a better bonded bullet. and I can't deny that standard cup and core bullets are proven for many kinds of game such as whitetail and smaller big games. however, I also can't deny that a premium bullet of any sort will still work better on any game species larger.
I know I'm kind of preaching to the choir with this one but I rest my case.

I have killed a lot of stuff with core lokts. The way I see it is the bullet needs to be tailored to the game you are shooting. For hogs deer and stuff like that most cheap bullets are just fine. For stuff that needs more penetration or exact performance standards I will use the premium bullet that is designed to deliver that result. I am not spending premium ammo money on bullets I am going to shoot about 150 -300 hogs per year with. It’s not needed so why do it?

 

[JINKLE]

Now that's an interesting response from one of the circa millennial crowd. Hi tech rifle (but not scope ... also interesting) that's shooting classic ammo. I like these guys. They don't just choose the path less followed, they find their own way without a path. Tip my hat!

The scope was next on the list. I ordered a Zeiss 2-10x42 that will be here next week. Still going to be shooting 30+ year Core-Lokts until they prove to fail.

 

[mdwest]

A friend's Browning .308 shoots cheapy Win silver box (formerly $10/box at Kmart) ammo 5-shots touching, so he goes with that!

Yep.

I was just talking with another member here about a 7x57 I had that HATED cheap PPU ammo.. I mostly bought it for range fodder and to get brass for reloading (loaded PPU 7x57 was literally cheaper than buying brass alone at one point)..

but I also had a 30-06 that would shoot PPU blue box junk like a laser beam.. So I bought a ton of that ammo back then... a whitetail wasnt going to know the difference in a 180gr PPU SP or a core lokt or a TTSX.. and at the PPU price point and with the accuracy I was getting, it was an incredibly good option..

 

[C.W. Richter]

Yep.

I was just talking with another member here about a 7x57 I had that HATED cheap PPU ammo.. I mostly bought it for range fodder and to get brass for reloading (loaded PPU 7x57 was literally cheaper than buying brass alone at one point)..

but I also had a 30-06 that would shoot PPU blue box junk like a laser beam.. So I bought a ton of that ammo back then... a whitetail wasnt going to know the difference in a 180gr PPU SP or a core lokt or a TTSX.. and at the PPU price point and with the accuracy I was getting, it was an incredibly good option..

lol similar. 757 AI hated (factory, fireforming) PPUs and my Son's 375 loved 'em (in a pinch when our ammo bags got delayed in Namibia) provide by the PH for both our 300 WMs and his 375-shot fine!

 

[Boyd Brooks]

Over my short 46 years of hunting, I have been extremely lucky as to never needing more than one shot per kill with a centerfire rifle cartridge. I will leave out my early years with a rimfire. That said my longest kill was less than 300 yards. I have seen lots of animals farther away and some closer that I let walk. I have used Remington, Winchester, Barnes, Nosler, Hornady and Sellier & Bellot ammunition and projectiles, for me it’s a pride in a clean kill. If I can’t get a kill shot I will watch and learn what I can and try not to educate the animal. I might see it again later with a better chance of the clean kill.

 

[Skshyk]

That is absolutely the worst idea I have ever heard of in reference to hunting Africa! A $30,000 hunt for the one animal most likely to mess you up if wounded is no place for saving money on ammo.
wow!

Its not about saving money, its about knowing it works and experience. I bought about 300 bullets and I have been using it for years. Shoots very accurate from my rifle. I have killed various animals including previous trips to Africa (Zebra, Impala, warthog) and in the US (Bison, hogs, deer). I would use nothing else on a 30k then a round that I have tested and has not failed. If I had to guess it was made my Nosler. The Leopard was killed with 1 shot, as you can tell from my profile pic it was not the best shot placement.

 

[mark-hunter]

Answer a couple questions.

• what are you hunting
• what is the furthest shot you are comfortable taking and might actually take
• what is the expected impact velocity

1. Roe deer, fallow deer: 30-06, nosler ballistic tip, 180 grains. Up to 200 meters (my comfort zone). Then Red deer, wild boar, 9.3x62, usually in woods, closer shots, 50 meters, 100 meters. Soft points, 286 grain.
Africa: 375 HH, swift a frame.300 grain. (ok its not everyday backyard hunting, but occasional.

Note, I dont have magnum rifles, such as 300 win mag, or faster. If I had, I would be using different ammo. I dont see the point in such calibers for my average hunting distances.

2. Furthest shot, comfort zone 200 meters, standing, from stick. Maybe a little over. Generally my local range is 200 meters, I train up to 200 meters regularly, and in the field I am not pushing much more then that. I had few shots, over 200 hundred, but if the rifle is zeroed at 200 hundred, then point blank range could be around 230 meters, or so. I have access to another 600 meters range, but it is not for any training for hunting. Prone position, target shooting, different rifle set up, 308 win. So, for hunting, irrelevant.

3. impact velocity - velocity of bullet at target, taken from ballistic tables, for each distance.

I shoudl add, that few seasons I tried hunting in 30-06, with bonded bullets. (norma oryx), effect on game is very good, but I did not see difference when compared to ballistic tip. (roe deer, fallow deer)
For Africa, (375) my reasoning is following. Hugh quality bullet, that keeps mass. SAF. First trip was for eland with that bullet. I took two elands. One for meat, another for trophy. So, non trophy eland was first shot broad side, pass trough. He turned, I took nest to the chest. Bullet whent through entire lenght of body and was stopped under skin in hind leg, with perfect mushroom.
Trophy eland taken from back in high neck broken spine, dropped in track.
So, basically, appart from neck shot (to break spine, any bullet will do), in such caliber and for tough or large game I expect penetration, and holding the mass. Next target I hope for buffalo

 

[typilotguy]

Pretty simple: dead is dead. There are many use applications where a "premium" bullet is 1000% unnecessary. Just the same, there are applications where a premium bullet is 1000% the better choice.

For the vast majority of my whitetail and feral hog hunting, I personally prefer a plain old soft point or any rapid expansion bullet to hit them hard, create a big wound channel, and transfer as much energy as possible while still getting pass through shots. I guarantee that a Core Lokt will kill a whitetail deer just as dead as a Partition, TTSX, A-Frame, or anything else you want to name. And, honestly, cup and core does it better than a "premium" mono bullet like TSX that need long range, heavy skin, or slow velocities to perform its best.

Application driven, there is certainly a time and place for better bullets. But there is a lot of value and reason to use non premium as well.

Match accuracy and terminal performance to the job at hand first. Price, be it cheap or expensive, should not be the first factor.

@ Tbitty, you said it perfectly well. One must take into consideration the game, distances, etc. when considering bullet selection.

I could be off base, but I feel as if there are generally three camps of people. The first insist on "premium" everything, without really knowing or understanding why. I have a friend that insisted his truck was more fuel efficient with high octane gas. I mean adamant. And then he actually tracked his mileage. Because his engine did not require high-octane premium fuel, there was no difference in mileage between 87 and 94 octane. This would be akin to using something like a A-Frame (or whichever flavor you choose) for, say, a small, southern whitetail, a jackal, a...fill in the blank. Sure, if you put it where it is required, it will work. But is it necessary? Are there better choices?

The second believes that everything with "premium" in the moniker is a marketing ploy. I don't fully understand this mentality, but I do recognize the hyperbole that marketers so often use.

Finally, somewhere in the middle, we have those that consider factors such as the game at hand, distances, etc. ad nauseam when considering what type of projectile to shoot.

Anectdotal evidence is fine and dandy, but I prefer empirical data. Just because you or your grandpa or cousin's uncle twice removed used an X-Brand cup-and-core to stop a charging grizzly does not, in turn, make that same load suitable for a buff. What about hide thickness? What about bone structure? Muscle density? "Depth" to vitals?

Very thought provoking post and responses, gents, as always. I really do get a lot of enjoyment and insight from reading all of the posts and replies.

 

[mdwest]

Over my short 46 years of hunting, I have been extremely lucky as to never needing more than one shot per kill with a centerfire rifle cartridge. I will leave out my early years with a rimfire. That said my longest kill was less than 300 yards. I have seen lots of animals farther away and some closer that I let walk. I have used Remington, Winchester, Barnes, Nosler, Hornady and Sellier & Bellot ammunition and projectiles, for me it’s a pride in a clean kill. If I can’t get a kill shot I will watch and learn what I can and try not to educate the animal. I might see it again later with a better chance of the clean kill.

you have indeed been fortunate... it hasnt happened to me a lot... but I had a hartebeest that had to be shot a second time.. first shot was a kill shot.. but no one bothered to tell the hartebeest it seemed.. and after getting doubled lunged by a 300gr barnes TSX from a 375 H&H, he stood back up and started moving, motivating a second shot to put him down..

Ive also had a couple of hogs over the years that required a second shot.. both would have died.. but they were shot slightly to the rear and a second shot put them down quickly and seemed to be the right thing to do..

then there was the terminator blesbok my wife shot in 2016.. she tagged him a little to the rear with a 308 (autopsy showed she got a lung though).. he took off like a rocket.. the PH then put a 375 H&H into him after we tracked him for probably a mile or more.. and he took off again... I then put a 375 H&H into with a neck shot maybe an hour after that and he finally expired..

I wont complain.. I can only recall those 4x times really feeling like a follow up shot was absolutely necessary.. out of several hundred hunts, thats not too bad... but there have probably been another half dozen times when I had a mortally wounded animal down, and felt it was the right thing to do to go on and put a second shot in them as well just to end the process (animal hanging on to life, but suffering).. I can think of a texas dall sheep that I clipped a lung on and also spined (uphill, angled shot).. he dropped in his tracks.. but was still kicking 5 minutes later.. it was just time to put another round in him and put things to an end.. a wildebeest in South Africa was similar.. dropped him in his tracks.. but 2-3 minutes later he was still kicking.. so he got another shot.. cape buffalo got an insurance shot for obvious reasons.. etc..etc..

 

[Alan D P]

I suppose that as a relatively older hunter (having been going on African safaris for the last 49 years ever since 1974), I can offer a slightly different perspective on this.

View attachment 555536
Remington Core Lokts were the “Premium” bullets of our time. As a matter of fact, I have been using their 220Gr factory loaded cartridge (out of a .30-06 Springfield rifle) quite successfully on all manners of African plains game over the years (as you can see below). Not just once but several times over, including one-shot kills on bull eland (the largest of the African plains game) and leopard over bait. So I can safely say for certain that my successful results were not flukes.

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We had another particularly favorite bullet of mine during our time- The old Winchester Super X soft point (also cup & core in construction). The (now unfortunately discontinued) 175Gr factory loaded cartridge served me extremely well in my 7x57mm Mauser rifle over the years.
View attachment 555554
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Since the 175Gr Winchester Super X soft point for the 7x57mm Mauser is now no longer in production, talking about it is moot. But the 220Gr Remington Core Lokt for the .30-06 Springfield is still in production and I still always voice my preference for this cartridge whenever my outfitters can source a rifle in this caliber for me.

Oh, I’m perfectly well aware of the fact that so many excellent more modern bullet designs are available on the current market today (Barnes TSX, Swift A Frame, etc). And I’ve got absolutely nothing against them. As a matter of fact, whenever a younger novice hunter asks me for opinions on the best bullets for an African safari… I always recommend the most modern bullet choices to them (like Swift A Frames).

But when I myself am personally hunting with a .30-06 Springfield rifle, my preference will still always be for the old 220Gr Remington Core Lokt Cartridge. Why? Because it has & continues to work for me very well. And since I’ve been using it for so long with successful results, I see absolutely no reason to stop using it now.

Herein, I will add that modern isn’t always necessarily better in every context. For leopards & lions (esp. those that are shot over bait), I personally prefer the old fashioned cup & core soft points such as Remington Core Lokts or Nosler Partitions (if you can still find them, that is) or Federal Classic Hi-Shoks over the modern monometal expanding bullets such as Barnes TSX any day.
View attachment 555556View attachment 555557View attachment 555558

It must not be thought that I am eschew all forms of modern bullet designs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

During my heyday, my preferred cartridges for hippopotamus (for instance) were RWS 300Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids and later Remington 300Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids (fired out of a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum).
View attachment 555559
Nowadays, my preferences for hippopotamus (for instance) are always exclusively for Barnes 300Gr TSX monometal expanding factory loads and Cutting Edge Bullets 300Gr flat nosed monometal Safari Solids (as loaded by Hendershots Custom Ammunition).
View attachment 555560

Thank you for your contribution, experiences, and photos! Always enjoy your perspective...

 

[B0MBOY]

I mean the best isn’t always necessary. Premium bullets maximize performance for your caliber. But if you’re using more than enough gun already who cares? I don’t need a ttsx for my 45-70 or 375 h&h when all I’m doing is shooting whitetail. The deer is gonna go flop immediately when hit with a 300 grain bullet regardless.

Another aspect is not everyone’s rifle likes premium solid copper bullets. In fact I have yet to shoot a rifle that groups as well with solid coppers bullets as it does with lead.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Its not about saving money, its about knowing it works and experience. I bought about 300 bullets and I have been using it for years. Shoots very accurate from my rifle. I have killed various animals including previous trips to Africa (Zebra, Impala, warthog) and in the US (Bison, hogs, deer). I would use nothing else on a 30k then a round that I have tested and has not failed. If I had to guess it was made my Nosler. The Leopard was killed with 1 shot, as you can tell from my profile pic it was not the best shot placement.

View attachment 555730

Holy cow! Those look like...Accubonds! With a different colored tip. Blimey maybe you should color it so the animals don't know you're shooting cosmetic seconds. I put a piece of tape over my .458 Lott's muzzle so the animals at the country club don't know I'm not keeping up with the Joneses. I shoot seconds too. Big deal.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

you have indeed been fortunate... it hasnt happened to me a lot... but I had a hartebeest that had to be shot a second time.. first shot was a kill shot.. but no one bothered to tell the hartebeest it seemed.. and after getting doubled lunged by a 300gr barnes TSX from a 375 H&H, he stood back up and started moving, motivating a second shot to put him down..

Ive also had a couple of hogs over the years that required a second shot.. both would have died.. but they were shot slightly to the rear and a second shot put them down quickly and seemed to be the right thing to do..

then there was the terminator blesbok my wife shot in 2016.. she tagged him a little to the rear with a 308 (autopsy showed she got a lung though).. he took off like a rocket.. the PH then put a 375 H&H into him after we tracked him for probably a mile or more.. and he took off again... I then put a 375 H&H into with a neck shot maybe an hour after that and he finally expired..

I wont complain.. I can only recall those 4x times really feeling like a follow up shot was absolutely necessary.. out of several hundred hunts, thats not too bad... but there have probably been another half dozen times when I had a mortally wounded animal down, and felt it was the right thing to do to go on and put a second shot in them as well just to end the process (animal hanging on to life, but suffering).. I can think of a texas dall sheep that I clipped a lung on and also spined (uphill, angled shot).. he dropped in his tracks.. but was still kicking 5 minutes later.. it was just time to put another round in him and put things to an end.. a wildebeest in South Africa was similar.. dropped him in his tracks.. but 2-3 minutes later he was still kicking.. so he got another shot.. cape buffalo got an insurance shot for obvious reasons.. etc..etc..

Yes I have been very fortunate. My buddies Buffalo was a different story it soaked up 8 375 H&H rounds 1st soft then 7 solids and finally succumbing to a 458 Win Mag round. After joining my buddy at the site of it’s demise I was so surprised by the shot placements and that they were not fatal. Some things just don’t know when they are dead.

 

[Skshyk]

Holy cow! Those look like...Accubonds! With a different colored tip. Blimey maybe you should color it so the animals don't know you're shooting cosmetic seconds. I put a piece of tape over my .458 Lott's muzzle so the animals at the country club don't know I'm not keeping up with the Joneses. I shoot seconds too. Big deal.

Your right they are Accubonds and its the same color too. So wait technically I have been using premium? Are Accubonds premium ? Not sure, but I am sure they work for the animals I have used them for.

https://www.nosler.com/products/bullets/product-line/accubond.html

 

[Forrest Halley]

Your right they are Accubonds and its the same color too. So wait technically I have been using premium? Are Accubonds premium ? Not sure, but I am sure they work for the animals I have used them for.

https://www.nosler.com/products/bullets/product-line/accubond.html

Sorry you are correct. I just started loading them in .375 they change colors for every caliber. Hard for me to keep up with.

 

[dchum]

Sorry you are correct. I just started loading them in .375 they change colors for every caliber. Hard for me to keep up with.

Accubonds have been white tip on all calibers for sometime now. So if they aren’t white it might be a Nosler BT.
Correct me if I am wrong!

 

[CoElkHunter]

I ended up testing, as well as using the Nosler partition, which performed very well off the bench, and in the field.

Nosler partitions seem to shoot well too in a variety of different brand barrels. Remington, Winchester, CZ 550 and Savage barrels are my experience with the Partitions.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Accubonds have been white tip on all calibers for sometime now. So if they aren’t white it might be a Nosler BT.
Correct me if I am wrong!

That's what I was thinking of...there we go. Straightening out my jumbled mind.

 

[sgt_zim]

1. Roe deer, fallow deer: 30-06, nosler ballistic tip, 180 grains. Up to 200 meters (my comfort zone). Then Red deer, wild boar, 9.3x62, usually in woods, closer shots, 50 meters, 100 meters. Soft points, 286 grain.
Africa: 375 HH, swift a frame.300 grain. (ok its not everyday backyard hunting, but occasional.

Note, I dont have magnum rifles, such as 300 win mag, or faster. If I had, I would be using different ammo. I dont see the point in such calibers for my average hunting distances.

2. Furthest shot, comfort zone 200 meters, standing, from stick. Maybe a little over. Generally my local range is 200 meters, I train up to 200 meters regularly, and in the field I am not pushing much more then that. I had few shots, over 200 hundred, but if the rifle is zeroed at 200 hundred, then point blank range could be around 230 meters, or so. I have access to another 600 meters range, but it is not for any training for hunting. Prone position, target shooting, different rifle set up, 308 win. So, for hunting, irrelevant.

3. impact velocity - velocity of bullet at target, taken from ballistic tables, for each distance.

I shoudl add, that few seasons I tried hunting in 30-06, with bonded bullets. (norma oryx), effect on game is very good, but I did not see difference when compared to ballistic tip. (roe deer, fallow deer)
For Africa, (375) my reasoning is following. Hugh quality bullet, that keeps mass. SAF. First trip was for eland with that bullet. I took two elands. One for meat, another for trophy. So, non trophy eland was first shot broad side, pass trough. He turned, I took nest to the chest. Bullet whent through entire lenght of body and was stopped under skin in hind leg, with perfect mushroom.
Trophy eland taken from back in high neck broken spine, dropped in track.
So, basically, appart from neck shot (to break spine, any bullet will do), in such caliber and for tough or large game I expect penetration, and holding the mass. Next target I hope for buffalo

I didn't mean *you* personally, but just a generic "you."

If there's a more than fair chance of a "close" shot where impact velocity is going to be closer to 3k fps than 2500 fps, probably a better idea to go with bonded premiums or monos.

It's fairly widely accepted that bullet mass is the key to penetration.

Consider a (admittedly unrealistic) scenario where you shoot a 200 gr bullet at an animal, and on impact, it breaks into 20 pieces, each weighing 10 grains. All that's likely to happen is inflicting a nasty, non-fatal flesh wound. But if that 200 gr bullet retains 95% of its mass, you can probably expect a total pass-through and not be able to recover the bullet.

You have a 308 Win firing 180 gr Game Kings at 2500 fps vs a 300 RUM firing the same bullet at 3350 fps. Target is at 75 yards - the 308 is probably going to pole axe that deer. Who knows what will ultimately happen to the one fired from the RUM, but I'd bet a paycheck it catastrophically fails at, or shortly after, impact.