why do people not use premium bullets?

[Tundra Tiger]

Accubonds have been white tip on all calibers for sometime now. So if they aren’t white it might be a Nosler BT.
Correct me if I am wrong!

Mine (.308) have red tips and a black coating. According to Pro Shooters Shop they are 180 grain Accubonds. What I found out online in another place is they were a special run for a factory load for Winchester - but fully Accubonds. So there ARE exceptions. But I believe white is the norm, yes.

 

[Steen S. Blicher]

One thing that has not been in the discussion, is that when we hunt and shoot with bullets that contain lead, more or less of the lead will end up in the animal's intestines and the meat we want to eat.

If you leave lead-containing entrails and meat remains in nature, it ends up in birds of prey and other carnivores, which end up getting lead poisoning.

Lead is a well-documented environmental toxin that accumulates in the body, and causes a number of problems.

Personally, I don't want to consume more lead than is absolutely necessary.

That is why I also stopped using lead bullets for hunting several years ago.

Here in Denmark the government has put an end to the discussion about premium/non-premium lead bullets, because the Danish government has banned the use of rifle ammunition for hunting, that contains more than 2% lead from 1. April 2024.

Several EU countries are working on similar bans on lead-containing ammunition.

Shotgun cartridges with lead has been banned here for many years.

 

[Forrest Halley]

One thing that has not been in the discussion, is that when we hunt and shoot with bullets that contain lead, more or less of the lead will end up in the animal's intestines and the meat we want to eat.

If you leave lead-containing entrails and meat remains in nature, it ends up in birds of prey and other carnivores, which end up getting lead poisoning.

Lead is a well-documented environmental toxin that accumulates in the body, and causes a number of problems.

Personally, I don't want to consume more lead than is absolutely necessary.

That is why I also stopped using lead bullets for hunting several years ago.

Here in Denmark the government has put an end to the discussion about premium/non-premium lead bullets, because the Danish government has banned the use of rifle ammunition for hunting, that contains more than 2% lead from 1. April 2024.

Several EU countries are working on similar bans on lead-containing ammunition.

Shotgun cartridges with lead has been banned here for many years.

Good for them. Maybe they'll keep their brilliant forward thinking to themselves.

 

[mark-hunter]

I didn't mean *you* personally, but just a generic "you."

Ups, btw, but at least tell me if I am doing something wrong?

 

[mdwest]

One thing that has not been in the discussion, is that when we hunt and shoot with bullets that contain lead, more or less of the lead will end up in the animal's intestines and the meat we want to eat.

If you are shooting an animal in the most common target areas (heart, lungs, neck, head) and the bullet it literally passing through the entire animal or at a minimum passing through those organs and then resting in the meat of the shoulder on the opposing side.. how is anything more than extremely minute traces of lead showing up in the intestines?

As a matter of practice Americans dont eat the intestines or any part of the bowel tract of game animals, and to my knowledge there are no cultures where hunting with rifles is common that people do commonly eat the bowel tracts..

We also as a matter of practice cut away all meat that is clearly damaged by the bullet path that would have had any contact with lead.. Many if not most hunters I know are actually a bit wasteful with meat and will cut away any flesh that even has basic tissue damage and is "blood shot" rather than try to recover it to eat it..

Granted other animals will often feed on the "gut pile" left by a kill.. but again, I'd love to see any actual evidence of anything more than just a few micro particles of lead showing up in the bowel tracts or any proof than other animals have been impacted by this, much less that they have developed lead poisoning and died from it..

I'd guess humans are far and away more impacted by exposure to lead in paint and other common household items than is even feasible or possible in getting lead exposure from eating the meat of a game animal that was momentarily struck with a small piece of lead in an area that is not going to be eaten..

The Danish argument appears to be just as unfounded and ridiculous as the California argument for only allowing lead free projectiles..

California passed their law largely as part of a movement to save the California Condor.. a scavenger bird.. they claimed they had identified a specific isotope in the lead used in ammunition and could prove that the bird was getting lead poisoning from ammunition fragments rather than lead paint, lead pipes, heavy metals found in fish, and other lead objects commonly found in their environment..

Then after no change in the birds lead poisoning rates was found (after the ban) claimed that poisoning rates are highly variable and that no data would ever be able to be provided to prove that banning lead bullets had any impact.. but they were still convinced it was a good thing for the environment..

Typical California unsubstantiated "environmental" safety BS..

 

[mark-hunter]

how is anything more than extremely minute traces of lead showing up in the intestines?

See below. Traces are all over. I was surprised my self when I was reading about non lead bullets, and their benefits

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/X-rays-radiographs-of-four-animals-shot-with-expanding-lead-based-bullets-a-A-roe_fig1_326321990

 

[mdwest]

See below. Traces are all over. I was surprised my self when I was reading about non lead bullets, and their benefits

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/X-rays-radiographs-of-four-animals-shot-with-expanding-lead-based-bullets-a-A-roe_fig1_326321990

View attachment 556054

That is surprising..

That said.. I'd still like to see actual studies that prove that this gets ingested and has any measurable impact on scavenger species or humans.. Again, California has been asked to prove their claims, and clearly says it cannot.. but, they are sure we're better off.. so just do what youre told..

Im quite literally around LOTS of lead several times a week.. My youngest daughter is a competitive shotgunner and goes through at least 200 shells a week (can be as many as 600-800).. and thats about 40 weeks out of the year... I am also one of the coaches on her team and am out on the trap and skeet fields with as many as 400 kids shooting at tournaments for 10-12 hours most saturdays... (quite literally 10's of thousands of shots fired in a single day)..

granted Im not standing around licking the shells.. and I do take basic precautions like washing my hands after handling shells and shotguns before eating, etc..

but knowing there are people that do this sort of thing for decades upon decades and see no associated health issues.. where exactly is it we draw the line between worrying about exposure vs being rational about what is "healthy" vs is not?

Most of the governmental agencies and labs I see reporting on the problems with lead exposure (specifically addressing shooting ranges, use of lead shot in shotguns, use of lead in rifles, etc) caveat their positions by saying "no amount of exposure to lead is good"..

well... ok.. no amount of exposure to sunlight is good either.. but we all get exposed to sunlight all the time.. what we care to know is HOW MUCH sunlight crosses the line? at what point am I exposing myself to extreme risks of skin cancer or other ailments associated with exposure to sunlight? how much sun only constitutes a minimal risk? and what precautions should I take to avoid greater risk?

you can find study after study after study that will tell you where those lines are with sunlight and what precautions to take..

but not one study tells you where the line is with lead? they will tell you "all exposure" is bad (largely it appears because it supports an agenda).. but wont tell you at what point exposure crosses a risk threshold that shouldnt be crossed.. or what precautions need to be taken other than "dont expose yourself"..

Shouldnt this be easy enough to do? Why tell me "look at all the micro particles of lead on this animal... exposure to lead is bad"... instead tell me "eating this animal will potentially expose you to X amount of particulates.. particulates add up over time.. we believe that Y amount of particulates is a threshold that humans should not cross"..

Instead we get answers like "we'll never be able to prove not shooting lead bullets is saving the california condor.. but we know lead is bad.. so.. dont use it..."

Sounds a lot like many of the corona arguments that were getting made in 2020...

 

[SFRanger7GP]

And toxic levels are more than doubled if you cook the meat of an animal killed with a lead bullet indoors on a gas stove or outdoors with wood charcoal. Combine that with the pesticides in non organic vegetable side dishes and we are just dead men walking.

Safe hunting

 

[Nevada Mike]

I have used premium bullets for many years, beginning with Bitterroot and Nosler partitions for heavier game.I have used Swift A Frames for african game and, if shot placement is correct, they work very well.

But for lower velocity performance (low velocity cartridges or at long range where velocity drops below about 2000 FPS), a softer or more frangible bullet is better - especially for lighter game.

I hunt Coues whitetails here in AZ and they are very lightly built and generally shot at ranges from 250 to 500 yards. I want a bullet that will expand at low velocity and anchor the animal so that I have a better chance of recovery of the animal. Nosler BTs, for instance, open well at low velocities and are very accurate. I use these in my 25-'06 and my 280AI.

 

[mdwest]

I should also say (as Ive already said many times in this thread and others).. I am a HUGE user of barnes monometal bullets.. it is actually rare that I shoot lead projectiles in anything other than a shotgun anymore..

but that has ZERO to do with giving more than 2 mangy rats butts about California or anyone elses position on lead being bad for the environment.. it is 100% because several years ago I was looking for a good "premium" bullet to shoot across multiple calibers.. and when I considered A-Frames, TTSX/TSX, and other options, what I found was the TTSX were more readily available in the places I shop, were more affordable, etc.. and they shot exceptionally well across every caliber I tried them in..

Otherwise I am sure I would have went with a lead option route like the A-Frame or the Oryx, etc..

So I suppose my personal lead exposure is pretty minimized as a hunter.. my wife and kids also shoot barnes (because I load all of their ammo for them)..

But its not because I really care about how much lead the meat of a whitetail or hog or any other animal is getting exposed to when I shoot it..

 

[Daisy]

There’s a large wingshooting farm here in Alabama. Owner told me every 5-7 years the ground becomes toxic from all the lead. They have to have a company come in and remove top layer and haul it off and replant everything.

 

[mdwest]

There’s a large wingshooting farm here in Alabama. Owner told me every 5-7 years the ground becomes toxic from all the lead. They have to have a company come in and remove top layer and haul it off and replant everything.

they do that because if they dont, OSHA will fine the hell out of them (this is very common for all shooting ranges.. there are set requirements for keeping lead levels down)..

funny thing about OSHA.. they dont really care nearly as much about the lead content in the soil on US Govt facilities though.. the enforcement of the standards when the USG is involved is very different..

 

[mark-hunter]

but knowing there are people that do this sort of thing for decades upon decades and see no associated health issues.. where exactly is it we draw the line between worrying about exposure vs being rational about what is "healthy" vs is not?

As in this example of lead polluted venison, being hunted with lead for last 500 years, we will never know. I do not see effect on man kind.

I remember one presentation / lecture we had on the coach shooting college (I graduated as pistol and rifle coach):

They found increased amount of lead in the blood in the group of children in sport shooting, air rifle. (I think it was somewhere in France)

It turned out that kids shooting air rifle with lead pellets usually did not wash their hands after shooting.
So lead residue from fingers from repetitive trainings got to their blood system.
But, again, no side effects.

My grandfather was passionate bird hunter. When I was a kid, we always had all kinds of birds for meal (full of lead shot), and never had any issue.

I think that biggest health hazard in our sport comes from cancerogenous gasses produced from burned powder. And this mostly in closed ranges if not vented properly.

Similarly, military veterans have higher rate of cancer then average after experience in active war zones with explosion produced gasses and firearms discharges.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen

You said everything except caliber.
What caliber used? 35 Whelen?

​

@mark-hunter
I only have 3 calibers
22K Hornet, my 25 and the 35 Whelen. All 3 run a steady diet of cup and corelike Hornady Vmax, 117grain SST and hornady Interlock in the Whelen. I got some Woodleigh 225gn round nose at a good price to try in the Whelen.
I also managed to get hold of 100 Barnes 100gn TTSX for a great price before they went to 120 dollars for 50..
Projectiles are expensive in Australia. Woodleigh and Atomic 29 represent good value for premium bullets in Australia but the imports are getting pricey even some of the cup and core. 117gr 25 cal SST are now 92 dollars per hundred. Fortunately I stocked up when they were cheaper.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

A guy get lucky with a perfect broadside shot and puts an unbonded bullet behind the shoulder. It works and they think they are now experts. As soon as an off angle shot is needed and their bullet fails to reach the vitals for any number of reasons they are then scratching their heads....Hard to sell a close minded person on what is the right thing to do when they are not going to listen.

@ftrovato
I have the same problem with 243 owners that continually load 87gn varmint bullets for medium game because it works ONCE. If they loaded 100gn round nose or 95gn SSTs it MIGHT actually work on the game they hunt. Yes you will need to shorten the range but at least they will have a chance of killing the game instead of wounding it with the WRONG bullet and leave it to me with my 25.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

YES! I've shot all my elk up to this point with 225g REMINGTON CORE LOKTS in my .338 WINCHESTER MAGNUM. ALL ONE shot kills up to 150 yards. Due to unforeseen circumstances, I used a .300 WINCHESTER MAGNUM with 180gr BARNES TTSXs on my ONE PG hunt in RSA in June 2022 and killed everything (no zebra or eland but a kudu, gemsbok and wildebeest) with one shot up to 300 yards. I'll probably stay with the Barnes even in my .338 because they MAY be a better choice at extended ranges and one can find the Barnes now less expensive in .338 versus Remington than three years ago. But I've no complaints with the Core Lokts either in my experience.

@CoElkHunter
If you used the 35 Whelen with core lockts you could have extended the range of the elk you shot to at least 300 yards. BUT NO you had to use that dinky little 338WM and keep your shots to 150 yards. See even in Africa you used the even smaller 300WM to 300 yards. That should have told to you something. I keep telling you to get rid of that toy 338WM and get a REAL RIFLE IN 35WHELEN.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[mdwest]

I think that biggest health hazard in our sport comes from cancerogenous gasses produced from burned powder. And this mostly in closed ranges if not vented properly.

Similarly, military veterans have higher rate of cancer then average after experience in active war zones with explosion produced gasses and firearms discharges.

It is only a guess.. but I bet you are correct on this...

Not a whole lot of shooting happened in the US's "First Gulf War".. it was over relatively quickly.. the entire conflict was over in less than 2 months and the vast majority of shooting was over within the first few weeks..

but we've had over a quarter million people come down with "Gulf War Syndrome"

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/gulf-war-syndrome

Soldiers get exposed to a lot of nasty stuff... much of it involves carcinogens.. not only in combat zones, but also in training.. I think lead exposure is typically the least of a soldiers concerns (it certainly wasnt on my top 100 list of things to worry about when I was wearing green)...

 

[CoElkHunter]

And toxic levels are more than doubled if you cook the meat of an animal killed with a lead bullet indoors on a gas stove or outdoors with wood charcoal. Combine that with the pesticides in non organic vegetable side dishes and we are just dead men walking.

Safe hunting

And if you're running a ceiling fan while cooking game meat indoors without wearing a Covid mask, you can kiss your a** goodbye from breathing the swirling gas fumes and vaporized lead particles. LOL. Seriously, how did we get to this epitome of stupidity? I think Darwin needs to step in and balance it all out.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Where does lead come from?

 

[Velo Dog]

Fellow Hunters,

As for “Premium Bullets”, I am very fond of Swift brand A-Frame.
That said, most of my critters have been taken with heavy for caliber, round nose soft point (“RNSP”) bullets, such as Hornady brand, “Interlock”, Remington brand, Core-Lock” (or however they spell it) plus Sierra RNSP and Winchester “Power Point bullets.
I wish A-Frames were available for ALL common hunting cartridges with round nose configuration.

Having said that, I definitely prefer old timey cartridges, such as the 6.5x55 / 160 gr RNSP, .30-30 Winchester 170 gr Flat Nose Soft Point, the boring old .30-06, 220 gr RNSP, 8x57S, 180 to 196 gr RNSP, 9.3x62 Mauser, 286 gr RNSP, and my all time favorite global hunting cartridge, (for non dangerous large animals, such as Alaska moose & bison, African eland, zebra & waterbuck, etc.) the .375 H&H, 300 gr RNSP and Nosler Partition.
For my blue collar money, if I was to use the 9.3x62 / 9.3x74R and or the .375 H&H, for African buffaloes and similar critters definitely, I would use the Swift A-Frame 286 gr - 300 gr.
(However, my personal preference for those begins at .40 bore and up - .416 Rigby, .450-400 Jeffery, .404 Jeffery and such likes).
IMO, the various .458’s and .500’s are none too much for such tough and potentially violent animals.

At normal hunting ranges (again, out to about 300 meters), I do not care for today’s trendy, super-velocity cartridges.
And, having seen erratic performance from hollow point bullets (either shattering like glass against heavy bone or total failure to expand at all, in soft flesh), I much prefer lead core bullets, with round nose or flat nose profile, with plenty of lead showing at the tip.
To quote Robert Ruark, “use enough gun”.

That definitely does NOT mean higher velocity, for most (most) normal hunting ranges (under about 300 meters).
If a hunter cannot hit typical game animals slap bang in the vitals within that distance, with a heavy for caliber RNSP bullet from such as the .30-06, .375, etc, from field positions (especially from standing over the shooting sticks), they don’t need a wiz-bang ultra velocity cartridge, they simply need to practice more.

For longer shots (out beyond about 300 meters), I do like higher velocity cartridges, such as the .300 H&H, the 7MM Remington Magnum and similar cartridges, loaded with spitzers and semi-spitzers.
Even with those faster ones, I prefer heavy for caliber bullets (180 gr .30 and 160 gr to 175 gr 7MM).

Just my dos centavos worth.

Stay on the front sight,
Velo Dog.