why do people not use premium bullets?

[Tam Dl]

1) The original question talks about an expensive hunt, here on the African Forum. That would then tend towards an African hunt. In that case superior bullet performance would likely be pretty important.

2) I would not go so far as to say that the basic bullets would always be worse. Particularly if the velocity was not too high or the game too rugged. The claim made for better bullets is not always that they are better, but that they are deeper penetrating, etc... The deer that are currently eating my apples, will not care. (I load partitions in all my game loads, but I could load some of the cup and cores and do fine).

3) What would you say of the person who buys premium bullets but barely crack off a shot before they show up, versus someone who has an adequate bullet but gets in a ton of practice, where for them cost is some kind of issue?

4) What do we say about all the long range shooters who buy premium bullets that may: a) blow as game bullets; b) shoot over a long range where only a portion of that range will cause effective bullet performance; c) have stability problems on close in usual shots; etc...

5) What about the guys shooting TSX where the range or game won't open those effectively. Or just generally they chose the wrong premium bullet.

 

[Tam Dl]

On a moose hunt in BC, another hunter, from Germany, with ALL of the proper gear, including a carbon fiber R8 with Swarovski optics shot a big bull with a Nosler ballistic tip that exploded on the shoulder... That bull was never revovered. $2 more would have bought a partition.

Doesn't sound like his motive was economy. Could be ignorant. But do you think he was just of the belief that the higher BC was key (assuming it was higher BC)?

 

[grand veneur]

Nowadays one always have the feeling that everything was done wrong in the past. One wonders how, decades ago, we were able to shot game with our classic SP or FMJ bullets.

First choose the right caliber for the game that you want hunt. Using too small cartridges for a game should not to be compensate by choosing a so-called premium bullet.

Second pay attention to how accurate a bullet can be fired in your weapon. If it can be a so-called premium bullet, all the better, but unfortunately that is not always possible.

For many of us, the choice of a classic bullet and not a so-called premium bullet is not due to ignorance or because we want to save money in the wrong place. I quoted the reasons above, and in the case of the big bore cartridges this question does not arise. The choice of bullets is very limited.

 

[rigby 416]

We have Bertrum and woodliegh in oz both cheap and great results.

 

[grand veneur]

Woodleigh is definitely a good brand. That are bullets that have stood the test of time but are rather classic in concept like that we have used in the past.

One should define what is meant by Premium Bullet. May be an A-Frame bullet because when it comes to hunting in Africa you only hear this word. One thinks that hardly anything else can work.

 

[ftrovato]

I ended up testing, as well as using the Nosler partition, which performed very well off the bench, and in the field.

I've shot a lot of Premium bullets over the years. Let's just say all of my guns never met a Nosler bullet they didn't like. As much as I like Barnes in the field, it usually takes some work to get them to shoot an acceptable group on the bench first.

 

[mdwest]

I've shot a lot of Premium bullets over the years. Let's just say all of my guns never met a Nosler bullet they didn't like. As much as I like Barnes in the filed, it usually takes some work to get them to shoot an acceptable group on the bench.

My rifles are the opposite lol….

I load Barnes almost exclusively because every rifle I have ever shot them in holds stellar groups and the tsx and ttsx are known performers..

I’ve had to work a bit to get 200gr partitions to work in my 300H&H and 260gr partitions to work in my 375 H&H… so I stopped loading them (not knocking nosler at all.. Barnes just proved to be easier across all calibers, so that’s what I’ve stuck with)…

 

[Philip Glass]

I shot my leopard with bullets from midway factory seconds. Why? Because I killed buffalo and bunch of hogs with them.

That is absolutely the worst idea I have ever heard of in reference to hunting Africa! A $30,000 hunt for the one animal most likely to mess you up if wounded is no place for saving money on ammo.
wow!

 

[Tango]

Agreed, some rifles can be very sensitive to bullet design/material. My new production Win Mod 70 375 would not shoot the Norma 300gr Bonded Oryx loads well. 2-3 MOA. I started to wonder if something was wrong with the rifle. Tried the Barnes 300gr Triple Shock and it was like a new rifle. Beautiful accuracy and consistent velocity over the LabRadar.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I'm a meat hunter raised by a meat hunter. Exploding bullets give bang-flop but make a mess. It's why I stopped using 165 gr Core Lock in my 30-06 (also they weren't reliable for bang-flop ... but did give more range ... which wasn't necessary). I have used 165 gr Partitions in Africa and they do drop the animals but also can do serious damage to meat. I think for dangerous game or for shooting ridiculous long range, copper bullets are the way to go. Within 200 yards for plains game, deer, and elk, a heavier cup and core is fine. Not sure I would agree with 220 gr 30-06; 180s will do the job and still retain some range. I formerly loaded 190 gr cup and core Hornady but they stopped making them. Excellent bullet ... for shooting animals less than 200 yards. And not so messy.

 

[Firebird]

In his book “Death in the Dark Continent” PHC wrote in the buffalo chapter that the Remington core lokt and the Winchester silvertip would be his picks for his first shot on buffalo when in a herd. One of those is no longer manufactured and the other still is-there may be better authorities on buffalo that Mr. Capstick, I would start with the ph I intended to hunt with and I would not sweat too much about the marketing gimmick of putting “premium” on the ammunition box.

 

[fourfive8]

The one and final thing that really counts when hunting is the bullet. Nothing else touches the live animal you are trying to kill as cleanly as possible. I have always been able to find a premium bullet and load for my rifles that shoots as well as most match or target bullets.

Since terminal performance has become a “thing” (or rationalization) for the sniping crowd…two things come to mind: How about- hunt close, shoot straight and shoot once. And… what happens when the shot distance is normal and much closer and the low vel super expanding bullet fails (blows up) at the higher impact velocity?? Or other side of same coin- where the 30 PRC long range super expanding bullet at closer range blows a 12 inch diameter hole through an animal that has a cross section girth of 20 inches?

 

[mdwest]

sometimes premium simply isnt an option...

if a client is using camp rifles, the client is also going to be using whatever ammo the PH provides with the rifle..

Ive found that rem core-lokt is probably the most popular, most common ammo in South Africa among common PG calibers.. its what the PH's can afford, and it has clearly killed thousands upon thousands of head of PG over its lifespan (and I'd imagine its share of DG as well)..

My daughter used a camp rifle on our most recent hunt, a 30-06 loaded with 200gr core-lokt.. she took a Rowland Ward quality waterbuck with that rifle with zero problems..

premiums are certainly my personal preference.. everyone that knows me knows I shoot barnes tsx and ttsx over IMR 4064 in almost every rifle I own.. and have used barnes factory vor-tx ammo extensively as well.. I use premiums not only in Africa.. but also in NA and/or anywhere else I go.. they just work for me.. and as someone already stated earlier, considering the total cost of even a budget hunt in Africa, an extra $1-$2 per trigger pull is immaterial.. the extra 5-10% in "insurance" you purchase for an extra $1 by using a premium bullet is well worth it...

but.. that said.. if a PH hands me a rifle loaded with federal power shok, rem core-lokt, winchester power points, etc.. and Im chasing typical PG quarry, Im not going to be concerned about it.. just do your job and put the bullet where it belongs, and everything will work out just fine..

highly frangible projectiles like ballistic tips, etc are a different story.. they arent designed for that type of hunting.. but, I also have never seen a PH charge a rifle with ballistic tips on a PG hunt for something like a wildebeest, kudu, impala, warthog, etc..

DG is a different story.. but, again, Ive never seen a PH hand a client anything other than premium loaded ammo on a DG hunt.. the only thing I have ever personally seen in fact has been A-frames..

 

[dchum]

My buddy wanted to hunt his Barbary sheep with vintage 30-06 ammo. He found a box of 35 year old DuPont made core lokts. He had recently purchased my Bergara In anticipation of his hunt. It shot them great so we went hunting……

240 yards straight up a 40 degree incline
150 core lokt out of a 30-06 will always be a sheep killing combo. Always has been. Btw the ammo was older than both the two hunters

I used to worry about equipment. Now I find joy in using what makes me happy. And at the moment hunting with old school stuff is fun and nostalgic.

That’s the long reason on why I use “non” premium ammo.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

My buddy wanted to hunt his Barbary sheep with vintage 30-06 ammo. He found a box of 35 year old DuPont made core lokts. He had recently purchased my Bergara In anticipation of his hunt. It shot them great so we went hunting……

View attachment 555675
240 yards straight up a 40 degree incline
150 core lokt out of a 30-06 will always be a sheep killing combo. Always has been. Btw the ammo was older than both the two hunters View attachment 555692
I used to worry about equipment. Now I find joy in using what makes me happy. And at the moment hunting with old school stuff is fun and nostalgic.

That’s the long reason on why I use “non” premium ammo.

Now that's an interesting response from one of the circa millennial crowd. Hi tech rifle (but not scope ... also interesting) that's shooting classic ammo. I like these guys. They don't just choose the path less followed, they find their own way without a path. Tip my hat!

 

[C.W. Richter]

Berger bullets actually explode before hitting the animal, it is the shrapnel and the concussion of the explosion that kills them.

Prior to them going the original Nos Ballistic Tip course (jackets too thin-the Berger was just a target bullet, but now they have the Hunting and Target models), my 1st field test of an original Berger was a doe at 200 yds (est. 3,150 fps strike, 140 gr .264) from a hay bale blind...the 500 yd bloodtrail into the woods was ~2' wide, looked like two inner-city kids ran through with spray paint cans pointed at the ground! I was severely disappointed, but like the Nos, was appeased once they made the necessary changes. Not many bullets will shoot as accurately beyond 400-450 yds than a berger, so that's their only purpose. Probably also excellent cat fare. Had the same results on African PG w/ .338 Barnes TSX (they didn't open, so opposite effect-went straight through like archery field points.)

 

[C.W. Richter]

Woodleigh is an outstanding bullet if you don’t push it too fast. Absolutely a premium bullet, and like any bullet, is best used in its performance envelope.

Agreed. They are extremely similar to the Normas. They are the Nos PT from down under, IMO. A bit more sturdily constructed (and thus their successes on DG). I just like 'em in .264 as the 160 gr pill has the highest SD and a commendable BC, but they're not long rang bullets at all. They are for terminal performance in most hunting situations!

 

[sgt_zim]

Some random thoughts.
1. Ignorance

2. Using rental camp rifle, will leave you no choice in bullets. When you are in camp, you will use whatever they give you. If you dont bring your own.

3. Medium to smaller game (up to 100 pounds in weight), will better be taken with rapid expansion bullet, which is usually cheap. For example I hunt roe deer exclusively with nosler ballistic tip 30-06 . In the same time, for Africa, my choice is swift a frame. My choice is based on game species that I hunt, combined with caliber nominal energy and velocity. I want best performance, and humane kill, Nothing wrong with nosler ballistic tip for roe deer in my own heck of woods..

4. Premium bullets are for magnum speeds, or for thick skinned game.

5. There was no need for premium bullets 100 years ago, when bullet velocities were around 700 m/s or less. For example, I hunt wild european boars with classic soft point, 9.3x62, velocity 700 m/s (2296 fps) and conveniently, SP is also economical. But If I would be using 300 win mag for same purpose, I would use premium bullet. Bonded, monolithic or partition. I dont mind spending money on ammo, but not every premium bullet is necessary for every purpose.

6. Other group of people is those who dont spend time and money on international premium hunts. Those who hunt in their own backyard, and are of lower income. This may come together with ignorance. Cheap bullets. if one bullet cost 1, the other 5, why paying 5? lets pay 1, and go hunting.


There were two notable stories, when premium bullets were needed.
The story of mr Grey, who wounded lion with 280 Ross (3000 fps) and wounded lion mauled him to death. this ended the reputation of 280 ross caliber.There was no premium bullets available at the beggining of xx century. Mr grey, couldnt use anything better, except to use some other caliber for that occasion.

Second story is when John Nosler had a problem killing a moose with some soft point in caliber 300 HH. Moose refused to die, till after about two magazines emptied in him, and with hardly any lead getting to vitals. Close range shooting. (high impact speeds, magnum velocities)
This event motivated nosler to design his famous partition bullet, If he was using 30-30, or 30-06 on the moose, he might never get the idea. The rest is history.

Both stories describe problem of soft points and magnum velocities. Go down in speed, arguably you dont need premium ammo in general

If Nosler had been shooting at that moose from 200 or 300 yards with his 300 H&H, instead of 50 or 75 yards, also very likely he would have never come up with his idea for Partition.

Answer a couple questions.

• what are you hunting
• what is the furthest shot you are comfortable taking and might actually take
• what is the expected impact velocity

If you're elk hunting in thick timber with a 7mm RM firing 150 gr bullets, is there the potential you might get a 50 yard shot? If so, cup-and-core is probably not going to be a very good choice. If the timber and underbrush is a bit thinner and you will more than likely be presented with a 300 yard shot or further? Cup-and-core will probably get the job done, and done well.

 

[C.W. Richter]

My buddy wanted to hunt his Barbary sheep with vintage 30-06 ammo. He found a box of 35 year old DuPont made core lokts. He had recently purchased my Bergara In anticipation of his hunt. It shot them great so we went hunting……

View attachment 555675
240 yards straight up a 40 degree incline
150 core lokt out of a 30-06 will always be a sheep killing combo. Always has been. Btw the ammo was older than both the two hunters View attachment 555692
I used to worry about equipment. Now I find joy in using what makes me happy. And at the moment hunting with old school stuff is fun and nostalgic.

That’s the long reason on why I use “non” premium ammo.

'been thinking the same thing this entire post....What a disadvantage all the book-writing hunters must've had way back when (even in the '60s-80s!) I accidentally killed 2 deer at 150 yds (300 WM, 165 gr Sierra BTSP-lead tipped copper) as a teen. What terrible performance those original designs provided!!! LOL I'd have taken a sheep w/ that rig No Problem (5 shots, all touching. 3,250 fps. 74 gr IMR 4350.) Lead-tipped bullets are the (non-CA) way for most hunting applications. Anything else is a story for sale. ALL DG ever cleanly bagged in Africa-Nos PT (or other original lead tipped SPs) excepting various solids and FMJs for pygmy antelope, excluding the aforementioned Barnes TSX failures. I did use original Barnes 300 gr SPs in .338 to cleanly take a huge Livinstone's Eland at 150 yd.

 

[ftrovato]

My rifles are the opposite lol….

I load Barnes almost exclusively because every rifle I have ever shot them in holds stellar groups and the tsx and ttsx are known performers..

I’ve had to work a bit to get 200gr partitions to work in my 300H&H and 260gr partitions to work in my 375 H&H… so I stopped loading them (not knocking nosler at all.. Barnes just proved to be easier across all calibers, so that’s what I’ve stuck with)…

That's ironic. I find that me old Sakos' love Nosler. My Old Weatherby's hate Barnes even when I try to just the seat of the bullet for the free bore jump. However, Barnes are real killers. They simply do a spectacular job at any range with any caliber. Noslers do a fine job inspite of their reputation for shedding too much weight in the partition bullets.