What's the biggest round you can shoot well?

[ActionBob]

For it's purposes, I feel very confident shooting my 505 Gibbs.

 

[Philip Glass]

Having started the process of buying a Lott and starting to research it a bit, I've read some quite interesting comments from people in other posts. It seems there are various opinions on this round, from "get on and shoot it" to "never again"! I guess I'm wondering on average how many people can't cope with it and how many think it's fine?

In my experience of shooting I've never fired a round this big. What I have learned though is I think it's recoil velocity that bothers me. Fast, snappy rounds like the .270 and .300 Win Mag offend me a little, big slow rounds like shotgun slugs, hot .45-70 and .375H&H I find absolutely fine. I'm not worried about it as such, but it is making me wonder whether I should work up a load and start with a light load or whether I should just load it up, grab it firmly by the throat and get on with it?! It's not a fast round so I'm expecting the recoil to be a good hard thump, but nothing offensive?

I guess what I'm asking is for those of you who have used one, what did you think of it? Fine, tolerable or don't own it any more?!

I have a muzzle brake and Edwards recoil reducers in my .416 Ruger and I can shoot it well. Shooting a lot does give me a headache however with these bigger guns. I have used my .375 Ruger quite a bit and have taken the brake off some time ago. It does have Edwards Recoil reducers in the stock that I believe in. My .470 gives me a headache and my neck hurts after some range time but not my shoulder. I am taking it to Kreighoff today to get drilled for a recoil reducer to see if that will help. If I can get a bit of the recoil reduced on the .470 I believe i can shoot it well.
I wish there was someone who would actually do a scientific study of the recoil reducers and measure exactly what they do. Why has no one done this? We all know our dads told us you could put lead shot in the stock to reduce recoil, now there are mercury reducers, Edwards which is hard to describe so I won't try, and Blaser has a tube filled with tungsten beads.
Maybe I should just start a thread......
Philip

 

[njc110381]

Njc,

What is it that you plan on killing with a weapon that is so powerful that makes you ask people the question of what piece of shoulder artillary they can accurately handle so you can attempt to narrow down your choices?

My only real interest is in buffalo at the moment. And from what I've read from numerous sources a first shot kill is much more likely with a .40+ calibre than it is with a .375. Plus I really just wanted to see if I can handle such a gun if the truth be told. The rifle is second hand - if I buy it and I don't like it then selling it on shouldn't cost me an excessive amount of money and I will have gained experience from it. I like big guns. There's something really satisfying about the way a gong swings when smacked with a big bore. My .45-70 throws them around like a rag doll so adding 800fps to the speed that 500gr bullet is flying will be interesting!

A whole lot of good points in your post njc110381, but first and foremost: welcome to the africahunting.com community. I am happy to welcome you on behalf of the inmates, and I hope that you will be able to find some mild value in our collective delirium

Your rifle and scope selections are dang near perfect. The action will likely be a little rough off the factory but no worries, this is easy to fix. See other posts in this blog or send me a personal message (PM) for some pointers if you want. I will gladly help.

As to what to expect:

Here is the baseline data:

• A 8 1/2 lbs 7 mm STW shooting 160 gr at 3,185 fps produces 27.9 ft/lbs of free recoil at 14.6 fps.
• A 10 lbs .458 Lott shooting 500 gr at 2,300 fps produces 70.4 ft/lbs of free recoil at 21.3 fps.

In so many words, your scoped .458 Lott will recoil 2.5 times more than your 7 mm STW. It will not kill you, but you will for sure notice it ;-) hence the advice in previous post about recoil management techniques etc.

Note that said recoil management techniques are not designed to make recoil acceptable, it is or it is not to you, but are designed to allow you to continue to group 1 to 1.5 MOA with over twice as much recoil.

For comparison, the .375 H&H is logically in between:

• A 9 lbs .375 H&H Mag. shooting 300 gr at 2,530 fps produces 37.3 ft/lbs of free recoil at 16.3 fps.

Note that the recoil increase is not linear but exponential as you climb the caliber ladder, and that the .458 Lott essentially recoils almost twice as much as the .375 H&H. Does that get your attention?

Note also that the slow push vs. fast recoil is a myth, as, factually, recoil speeds increases along with recoil force. I speculate that more generous stock dimensions and less drop in high recoil rifle stocks may be (?) at the origin of this myth...

Here are the recoil baseline rules of thumb:

• increasing rifle weight by 10% decreases recoil by 10%
• decreasing bullet weight by 10% decreases recoils by 20%
• decreasing bullet velocity by 10% decreases recoils by 20%

It is easy to see why most big bore start at 9 1/2 lbs without scope (i.e. 10 1/2 lbs with scope) and why so many folks who buys a 500 gr / 2,300 ft/lbs capable .458 Lott, end up shooting most of the time mild 400 gr / 2,050 fps .458 Win loads (in either Win or Lott brass, by the way, because the Lott chamber fires perfectly well the shorter Win cartridge).

Three more advises if you can bear:

1. Start shooting without the scope. The CZ has among the best factory iron sights in the market anyway.
2. Start shooting light and mild Win Mag loads: 400 gr at 2050 fps will produce 'only' 41.7 ft/lbs of free recoil in your unscoped CZ.
3. Fire a box of 3" 12 gauge duck shells (1-5/8 oz at 1,280 fps) at a ground target. They produce about 52 ft/lbs of free recoil from a 7 1/2 lbs shotgun. The light Win Mag load will feel pretty innocuous after that, and the Lott full house loads will be less of a shock.

I hope this helps

Well that helps me a lot. My shotgun weighs 7 1/4lbs and I shot numerous 3" loads from it before I got my rifles. That was ok, didn't overly bother me. I wouldn't want to fire 50 of them but 20 would be ok. Thanks for all the additional information - there's a lot of stuff included in there that I didn't know!

Once I've picked the rifle up I will know more about the action and what needs to be done to smooth it out. I've owned a few CZ's of lesser calibres so have a reasonable understanding of how they work, but some smoothing up advice would be much appreciated when the time comes. They are a little rough and ready from the factory but it doesn't usually take much to get them running smoothly. Just a little more fine finishing than the factory can afford to do.

As for the class of "inmates", you guys really go above and beyond what I was expecting. So much good information and so much time spent sharing it. For that I'm very grateful, thank you.

 

[ChrisG]

Having started the process of buying a Lott and starting to research it a bit, I've read some quite interesting comments from people in other posts. It seems there are various opinions on this round, from "get on and shoot it" to "never again"! I guess I'm wondering on average how many people can't cope with it and how many think it's fine?

In my experience of shooting I've never fired a round this big. What I have learned though is I think it's recoil velocity that bothers me. Fast, snappy rounds like the .270 and .300 Win Mag offend me a little, big slow rounds like shotgun slugs, hot .45-70 and .375H&H I find absolutely fine. I'm not worried about it as such, but it is making me wonder whether I should work up a load and start with a light load or whether I should just load it up, grab it firmly by the throat and get on with it?! It's not a fast round so I'm expecting the recoil to be a good hard thump, but nothing offensive?

I guess what I'm asking is for those of you who have used one, what did you think of it? Fine, tolerable or don't own it any more?!

It depends on what position you are talking about.

Off a bench, in one sitting, before consistency starts to suffer or I get a headache, I can handle about...

20 rounds of .300 Win mag, 165 grain @ 3,100fps.
10 Rounds of .375 H&H, 300 grains @ 2,600fps
6 Rounds of .416 Ruger, 400 grains @2,325fps.

Never felt the need to shoot anything bigger than that. If I ever get the opportunity to hunt elephant, from what I have read and others have posted here, a .416 is more than adequate in the penetration and hitting power department.

Standing or shooting from field positions other than prone is a different story. I am pretty sure I can shoot...

.300 win mag - Almost indefinitely
.375 H&H - 50 + rounds
.416 Ruger - 15 -20 rounds and it starts to lose the "fun" aspect of it. It doesn't hurt, it is just is a bit jarring.

 

[Von S.]

My only real interest is in buffalo at the moment. And from what I've read from numerous sources a first shot kill is much more likely with a .40+ calibre than it is with a .375. Plus I really just wanted to see if I can handle such a gun if the truth be told. The rifle is second hand - if I buy it and I don't like it then selling it on shouldn't cost me an excessive amount of money and I will have gained experience from it. I like big guns. There's something really satisfying about the way a gong swings when smacked with a big bore. My .45-70 throws them around like a rag doll so adding 800fps to the speed that 500gr bullet is flying will be interesting!



Well that helps me a lot. My shotgun weighs 7 1/4lbs and I shot numerous 3" loads from it before I got my rifles. That was ok, didn't overly bother me. I wouldn't want to fire 50 of them but 20 would be ok. Thanks for all the additional information - there's a lot of stuff included in there that I didn't know!

Once I've picked the rifle up I will know more about the action and what needs to be done to smooth it out. I've owned a few CZ's of lesser calibres so have a reasonable understanding of how they work, but some smoothing up advice would be much appreciated when the time comes. They are a little rough and ready from the factory but it doesn't usually take much to get them running smoothly. Just a little more fine finishing than the factory can afford to do.

As for the class of "inmates", you guys really go above and beyond what I was expecting. So much good information and so much time spent sharing it. For that I'm very grateful, thank you.

The bigger diameter, the faster the speed, the heavier the weight, the more damage takes place, the faster stuff hits the ground.

But unfortunately up goes the recoil to what can be absolutely uncontrollable levels.

It is about pain and fear, but unfortunately sometimes it's more about "hype" that creates the fear than pain.

Not long go I picked up a 500 S&W and hit dead center of the target at 50 feet. The next 4 shots never touched the paper and possibly have not even re-entered the atmosphere yet. I would call that pain induced fear. Our resident elephant killing pistol shot sent me an inspirational pm about sticking with it and within less than 100 shots I had all rounds in the black and after scoping it I was shooting off sticks at 100 yards, with a glove, within 6 inches and airplanes and ground dwellers we're once again pretty safe.

A fella at the range who is pretty good with his m1A was talking to me and I asked him if he wanted to take a cut or two with my 460. He was tickled and said that he had heard a lot about it.

He took a wrap and cut loose at 100. He missed the target, but did hit the berm. The second shot missed even the berm and I am sure that something in orbit now has a hole in it.

This would be hype induced fear that is often started by some Nancy boy who is most comfortable behind closed doors wearing his mommy's sundress and burning up a keyboard spreading B's as he has no real experience to draw from.

Over the years I have owned pretty much well most of the great big boomers all the way up to the 20 mm Vulcan so let's just say that if the case is over 2 1/2" s long and the bullet weight over 300 someone is going to complain about the recoil as maybe it actually does hurt them and that they simply can not control the pain induced fear and will forever have a flinch. My advice to that person is that after 10 tries at the range and still no improvement is seen to possibly re-think the caliber.

Ok...the 600 over kill.

Wow! It is truly the Chest Morgan of big game boomers. Drop one or those rounds on your foot and it will hurt you. It most certainly does recoil as well as the rifle weighs a whole bunch. A few shots and I'm done for the day.


The T-Rex.

It's a freaking mad man snorting meth and ground toe nails drinking a cocktail of Draino, Comet, Battery Acid and Grain Alcohol, banging a rabid elephant in the kiester while listening to "Hit Between The Eyes" by the Scorpions at 1100 decibels.

After the 3rd shot I am done for the day.


The 460 Weatherby.

What I consider to be one of the finest expressions of ballistic superiority in a true dangerous game round. If you are the type of guy who lives by " I came, I saw, I conquered" then this is your round.

A cape , though at best is the size of a milking cow, is a whole lot tougher.....though what in Africa isn't?......will go down immediately with a good hit and not get back up.

Of course it kicks, but throw a can on it and it's a pussy cat.


Now to the low end of the spectrum. The 458 Winchester Magnum.

My pet rifle weighs and is about the same size of a Remington 660. It is a joy to carry and is a pleasure to shoot. Even off a bench shooting 20- 500 gr don't bother me. It takes the big 5 down easily.


Sure! There's a lot more rounds out there . Some good, some not great, some have big recoil, others just push.

Enjoy.

 

[ChrisG]

\

The 460 Weatherby....

A cape , though at best is the size of a milking cow, is a whole lot tougher.....though what in Africa isn't?......will go down immediately with a good hit and not get back up.

I remember a story related via Peter Capstick guiding a client who was shooting a .460 weatherby and emptied the rifle into a cape buff trying to get it to stop. He was apparently pretty accurate with it too because he hit it in the vitals a majority of the time. I believe Mr. Capstick's words that he had dumped better than "60,000 ft.lbs into that buffalo" and finally dropped some distance later. It was determined that his shooting wasn't to blame even though his nose was bleeding from the recoil and blast.

I don't know as there is a shoulder fired rifle capable of being carried by one man that has the energy to "knock down" a buffalo. Sure, it does a boatload of damage, but sometimes, in the words of Baron Bror von Blixen "the goddess of sport is certainly capricious". A hit with a anything short of a 50mm field piece isn't going to topple a big 1,800lb animal with certainty every single time.

Here's the gun I would use if I wanted to assure a knockdown everytime...

man portable? sure.... with three men or a horse...

But one heck of an impact. I don't know the TKO factor of a 50mm Krupp Mt. Gun but I would bet it beats a .600 OK.

 

[Von S.]

Well Chris...

There most assuridly a grand difference between taking down and knocking down.


One thing for certain is that the more foot pounds the better the chance of the animal falling down and not getting up.

Of course a AP 30 call into the brain ends the game quickly as well, but mention a brain shot here and a Mary or two will suffer an attack of the vapors.

 

[ChrisG]

Well Chris...

There most assuridly a grand difference between taking down and knocking down.


One thing for certain is that the more foot pounds the better the chance of the animal falling down and not getting up.

Of course a AP 30 call into the brain ends the game quickly as well, but mention a brain shot here and a Mary or two will suffer an attack of the vapors.

Oh I agree with you for sure. Also I am one of those people who believe that a head shot on an unwounded animal is something that should be avoided like the plague. Mainly because it's not a factor of the shooter's skill. The best shot in the world can botch a head shot, especially at a distance. An animals head can move a lot in the few hundred milliseconds it takes a round to cover the distance between the rifle and the skull. A round that was on target when you pulled the trigger, may not be when it gets there. And I have seen more than one deer in my neck of the woods dead of starvation or on trail cams with a bottom jaw blown to pieces by a poorly placed, "instant kill" head shot. If an instant kill is required I would vastly prefer the base-of-the-neck shot to sever the spine. The base of the neck moves with the body so if the animal isn't moving, the neck isn't moving. I realize those are my own preferences and they may not be shared by all, but anything I can do to insure that I recover the animal I shoot at, I absolutely do.

 

[npm352]

Mark Sullivan told me I was a pussy for shooting anything under a .600NE when I was at a show sharing about my (then) upcoming dream hunt for tuskless ele and buff...he said .470NE were made for grandmas and children. I kindly reminded him I had saved for years for the trip and if I spent money on any double rifle, I'd mot be able to ever hunt with it. I used a .375 bolt gun and it did just fine.

Later, I shot a 470 NE double in australia and loved it. Even got a boar and a coyote sized "wild dog" with a pretty nice shot. Cool gun. But remember not to try to overcompensate for other things....we've all seen the old little Toyota trucks with the bumber stickers: "Nice Truck Sorry About the Small Pe***." Hehehe

 

[Art Lambart II]

So far I have shot a 404 J, 416 Rigby and a 470NE. All of the rifles weighed 11+ pounds so I didn't find the recoil on any of them unmanageable. So long as you have good shooting form, wear good hearing protection and you know what will happen when you squeeze the trigger most rifles are manageable.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

22 LR & 223 Remington..............really, really well.

7x57, 270, 30-06, 7mm mag, 338 WM, 375 Ruger...............really well.

404J..................working on it.

 

[njc110381]

I think the calibre thing is a balance. No round will guarantee an instant drop as that's not how animals work in the real world. What I've tried to do with the Lott is pick a round that hits hard but isn't silly? It's available in rifles that are sensibly priced and ammunition isn't silly money. It can also shoot the Win Mag ammo, making it easy to feed all over the world. It's a cartridge that when left behind could be of use to my PH, another bonus.

I could have asked for a .375H&H but I've already had one. I also have casting kit for .458 bullets, and I have to say I have no intention of using premium jacketed bullets to get used to the gun. The Lott is throated nicely for cast bullets so I may as well make those savings.

 

[WAB]

I actually shot the first shot out of the first .700 produced by H&H. It was back at the London range for final test before blacking. The gun weighed 24 pounds but the recoil was still stiff. What in the world do you do with a 24 pound rifle!?!

 

[One Day...]

I wish there was someone who would actually do a scientific study of the recoil reducers and measure exactly what they do. Why has no one done this? We all know our dads told us you could put lead shot in the stock to reduce recoil, now there are mercury reducers, Edwards which is hard to describe so I won't try, and Blaser has a tube filled with tungsten beads.

There was a 'study' Philip some years back when Google and the internet were not king and good people like us were waiting with delightful angst for the mailman to deliver the monthly fix of Bob Milek, Jeff Cooper, Layne Simpson, Kevin Steele, Wayne Van Zwoll, Craig Bodington, etc. provided courtesy of Petersen or Wolfe publishing... I came to the US too late for Elmer Keith or Jack O'Connor

Those were different times. These gentlemen were not always objectively right, and opinions were of course generously mixed with facts, but at least most of them actually handled and shot the rifles and cartridges they wrote about. There was something to be said about publishers weeding out the wannabes ;-) But I digress...

The bottom line was that the reducers use moving mass (either liquid i.e. mercury, or solid i.e. tungsten, lead, etc. beads) and rely on both passive mass and dynamic effect to reduce felt recoil.

• Passive mass is pretty obvious and amply documented: as stated earlier, increasing gun weight by 10% decreases free recoil by 10%. Simple. Proven. Countless generations have increased mass with thicker barrel contour, lead bars in the fore end and rear stock, or lead shot/epoxy poured into the rear stock hole of shotguns and rifles alike.
• The dynamic effect is an interesting theory. It goes as follows: because the mercury or beads are loose in the cylinder, the cylinder recoils with the gun, while the mercury or beads first do not recoil but stay in the same absolute position until the front of the cylinder slams into them and recoil is therefore reduced by this internal collision. After the initial dynamic effect, the mercury or beads act as additional passive mass being moved back by recoil.
• If memory serves, jury-rigged field tests apparatus (recoils sleds) contrived for the 'study' (I would call it "empirical test") were inconclusive at detecting a difference between a 2 lb lead rod and a 2 lb mercury recoil reducer.

Because the math is never wrong (although it can be used to mislead), I would speculate that there IS an additional dynamic effect with the moving mass recoil reducers, but its actual contribution to recoil reduction may be so small as to be undetectable by anything other than finely tuned laboratory equipment... notwithstanding the fact that the placebo effect is alive and well ;-)

You will get a reduction of recoil on the Kreighoff. Now what proportion will be owed to passive mass and dynamic effect is an interesting question...

 

[Red Leg]

My experience with larger caliber rifles is that the average shooters accuracy, is directly related to the rifles trigger weight, and felt recoil.
I am a average shot. Attached is a photo of using a .375 H&H with 300 grain barnes X bullets (and a 2 lb Jewell trigger) on Geese in the Caprivi, shot at 250-300 yards off of shooting sticks. Please note the suppressor!!
Happy New Year!

View attachment 261355

How could one miss the suppressor!

 

[BeeMaa]

In a bolt action I would definitely go for the .505 Gibbs myself, especially since the CZ action can digest it.
The Jeff has a short case with rebated rim that was designed to somehow make it fit in the standard Mauser K98 action, which it did, but with so many feeding issues that most English makers ended up building their rifles with a single column 2 shot magazine.
Why CZ (and/or others) would even bother with it is beyond me. The Gibbs is by far a better design in my opinion, not to mention that it operates at lower pressure and extracts much better (that rebated rim again!).

After I wrote my last reply to you, I looked up the 500 NE, 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery and came to the same conclusions.
I would stay away from the rebated rim of the Jeffery for that very reason.
For a bolt gun, it would be a 505 Gibbs and probably a AHR custom or at least a CZ550 slicked up by Wayne.
If I were to go with a double, the 500 NE would be my choice because it is flanged.

Bottom line, I'll likely never own a half-incher, mostly due to lack of need and partly due to lack of wanting the punishment.
If it were my profession, it would be different.
I'm a client/sport hunter/enthusiast and I'll stay in my lane with my 375 and maybe down the road, look at a 416 or 450/458/470.
After all...we can never say never.

 

[Red Leg]

So I own a .404, .470 (double), and 500/416 (double). I shoot them all very well. I have yet to kill a buffalo with any of the three. The reasons:

1) Following my first safari in Namibia a decade ago, I decided I didn't much like transporting two rifles. It complicates travel due to weight, and hunting due to the almost certainty of at least occasionally being armed with the wrong rifle and caliber when a long way from the cruiser. Many of my hunts have been just three of us - PH, tracker, and your humble correspondent. Hate to have the tracker lugging another rifle when he needs to concentrate on - well - tracking.

2) I have yet to go on a pure buffalo hunt. I always have PG animals in mind as well. The .404 is accurate enough for 80% of those shots, but is hardly a light stalking rifle. The 500/416 is a Blaser S2 with .375 barrels as well that are accurate to 250 meters - with that versatility, I have never been able to come up with an excuse to take the 500/416. Ditto the .470.

3) When hunting DG, I find I carry my rifle a lot more than I shoot it. A whole lot more. Back in Ranger school, I had to carry around crew-served weapons - now I would just as soon not. When I do shoot it, the shot needs to be made quickly and very, very accurately. I do not subscribe to the theory that a buffalo is a huge target so salad or dinner plate accuracy is fine. The four I have killed all provided challenging shots due to presentation, intervening brush, or time. I beat this dead horse a lot, but I reiterate, a client's most important task is to get that first bullet into exactly the right place - not the general proximity.

For me, a well proportioned .375 answers those requirements perfectly. My Blaser R8 has the dimensions and weight of a 30-06 - I can carry it all day and hardly know it is there. It is supremely accurate - with Swift A-Frames it will shoot sub-MOA from the bench and into a silver dollar off the sticks at 100 meters. Oh yes, and the rifle absolutely boringly lethal.

Obviously, if you want to get a Lott, then do so. Clearly, my practical experience with the .375 didn't keep me from owning three forties of various persuasion. But if you are planning to go actually stick a buffalo and are already comfortable with a .375 .........

 

[WAB]

Red Leg, I can’t fault your logic but I sure like shooting big beasties with my Lott...

 

[Von S.]

Not every hunter is made for every round and not every round is made for every animal.

Choose wisely.

 

[One Day...]

So I own a .404, .470 (double), and 500/416 (double). I shoot them all very well. I have yet to kill a buffalo with any of the three. The reasons:

1) Following my first safari in Namibia a decade ago, I decided I didn't much like transporting two rifles. It complicates travel due to weight, and hunting due to the almost certainty of at least occasionally being armed with the wrong rifle and caliber when a long way from the cruiser. Many of my hunts have been just three of us - PH, tracker, and your humble correspondent. Hate to have the tracker lugging another rifle when he needs to concentrate on - well - tracking.

2) I have yet to go on a pure buffalo hunt. I always have PG animals in mind as well. The .404 is accurate enough for 80% of those shots, but is hardly a light stalking rifle. The 500/416 is a Blaser S2 with .375 barrels as well that are accurate to 250 meters - with that versatility, I have never been able to come up with an excuse to take the 500/416. Ditto the .470.

3) When hunting DG, I find I carry my rifle a lot more than I shoot it. A whole lot more. Back in Ranger school, I had to carry around crew-served weapons - now I would just as soon not. When I do shoot it, the shot needs to be made quickly and very, very accurately. I do not subscribe to the theory that a buffalo is a huge target so salad or dinner plate accuracy is fine. The four I have killed all provided challenging shots due to presentation, intervening brush, or time. I beat this dead horse a lot, but I reiterate, a client's most important task is to get that first bullet into exactly the right place - not the general proximity.

For me, a well proportioned .375 answers those requirements perfectly. My Blaser R8 has the dimensions and weight of a 30-06 - I can carry it all day and hardly know it is there. It is supremely accurate - with Swift A-Frames it will shoot sub-MOA from the bench and into a silver dollar off the sticks at 100 meters. Oh yes, and the rifle absolutely boringly lethal.

Obviously, if you want to get a Lott, then do so. Clearly, my practical experience with the .375 didn't keep me from owning three forties of various persuasion. But if you are planning to go actually stick a buffalo and are already comfortable with a .375 .........

Very good post to which I agree. Now how do we do to convey to njc110381 that we are not fighting but that we are looking at things from different perspectives, both objective and viable, which makes the value of this forum...

Let me take a crack at it...

Considering that we are about the same age Red Leg, I will guess that you toted the 23 lbs M60 in Ranger School. I carried the 22 lbs AA 52 at the Special Military Academy in France. Interestingly, it apparently produced the opposite effect. You "would just as soon not" lug a heavy weapon anymore. Conversely, to this day, I find an 11 lbs rifle delightfully light to carry all day

My rationale is that these extra 2 or 3 lbs that I do not feel, really soak up recoil so much that my 11 lbs 3 oz scoped Mark V .340 Wby (29 ft/lbs of recoil with 225 gr TTSX) recoils not much more than a 9 lbs 2 oz scoped Win M 70 .300 Win (24 ft/lbs of recoils with 180 gr TTSX); and my 10 lbs 10 oz .416 Rigby scoped CZ (55 ft/lbs of recoils with 400 gr TSX) does not recoil all that much more than a 7 lbs 6 oz .375 H&H Blaser R8 (44 ft/lbs of recoils with 300 gr). In both cases, the .340 and .416 deliver larger frontal area, significantly heavier bullets, and a lot stronger 'blow' however we want to measure it since we both agree that 'energy' is not all that it is cracked up to be...
And because an additional 2 or 3 lbs on my shoulder does not break this camel's back; because I personally find heavier rifles easier to control in the wind or with heavy breathing; and because the recoil levels are similar on the lighter rifles/calibers and my heavier rifles/calibers, I shoot my heavier rifles/calibers as well as others shoot their lighter rifles/calibers, and I hit bigger, heavier and harder.
There is no real arguing that whatever a .375 does to a buff a .416 does better, and whatever a mild .3o does to large plains games a strong .33 does better, as long as all bullets land in the same place. To me, the extra 2 or 3 lbs to lug around are well worth the extra punch, without paying a real price in recoil, which is generally what sends bullets flying out of target... Most people do not shoot well a .375 that weighs the same as a 30-06. I do not, so it does not work for me. Red Leg does, so it works for him.

That does not make me right over Red Leg, njc110381, it just means that we place our cost/benefit analysis in rifle weight vs. rifle power in two different places, while still delivering the same shots with similar recoils. As to whether .33 and .416 are NEEDED over .30 and .375, it is a matter of personal opinion. I personally do not think that it is NEEDED per se, but I personally like the extra margin of safety 10,000 miles and $10,000 away from home, and after all, when one drop of blood means you own it, as my byline says: there ain't not such thing as too dead.

Another example of different perspective, njc110381, is that Red Leg travels with one rifle. I always take two. My rationale is again that 10,000 miles and $10,000 away from home I will have a level of backup and I do not bet on a decent rifle being available in camp if mine somehow fails.

I hope that I do not come across as advocating shoddy accuracy, and God forbid I would come across as advocating shooting at an entire buff! But the reality is that buff, elk, moose, hartebeest, wildebeest, kudu, etc. never mind eland! all have a vital area exceeding 12" in diameter. A carefully placed bullet anywhere within this area will result in an ethical kill (some will be instantaneous, and some will inexplicably take longer, we all know that!) regardless of whether the bullet hits 2" right, left, high or low from one's point of aim, and this is assuming that said point of aim on the outside of the animal actually lines up perfectly with the very best placement on the internal organs... I agree that the shot needs to be "made ... very, very accurately" (and sometimes "quickly") but the point I was trying to make relating to shooting well a DG gun, is that one does not need a 1/4 MOA rifle and 1/2 MOA gunnery to hunt dangerous game... A hit anywhere in the upper-heart & lung 1/2 square foot area of a buff is not a hit "in the general proximity," it is in "exactly the right place"

Actually, and in full agreement with Red Leg's strongly emphasized theme of client's responsibility, on DG I am fully comfortable with a scenarios where the shooter/rifle hits a buff consistently, each time, every time within 2 or even 3 MOA (i.e. 2" or even 3" group at 100 yd). As hinted previously, I would bet pretty solid money that few people, including the PHs themselves, can do much better with iron sights

PS: I am curious Red Leg, is the R8 .375 H&H really 6 lbs 6 oz without scope as the Blaser info states?