What's the biggest round you can shoot well?

[Red Leg]

Very good post to which I agree. Now how do we do to convey to njc110381 that we are not fighting but that we are looking at things from different perspectives, both objective and viable, which makes the value of this forum...

Let me take a crack at it...

Considering that we are about the same age Red Leg, I will guess that you toted the 23 lbs M60 in Ranger School. I carried the 22 lbs AA 52 at the Special Military Academy in France. Interestingly, it apparently produced the opposite effect. You "would just as soon not" lug a heavy weapon anymore. Conversely, to this day, I find an 11 lbs rifle delightfully light to carry all day

My rationale is that these extra 2 or 3 lbs that I do not feel, really soak up recoil so much that my 11 lbs 3 oz scoped Mark V .340 Wby (29 ft/lbs of recoil with 225 gr TTSX) recoils not much more than a 9 lbs 2 oz scoped Win M 70 .300 Win (24 ft/lbs of recoils with 180 gr TTSX); and my 10 lbs 10 oz .416 Rigby scoped CZ (55 ft/lbs of recoils with 400 gr TSX) does not recoil all that much more than a 7 lbs 6 oz .375 H&H Blaser R8 (44 ft/lbs of recoils with 300 gr). In both case, the .33 and .416 deliver larger frontal area, significantly heavier bullets, and a lot stronger 'blow' however we want to measure it since we both agree that 'energy' is not all that it is cracked up to be...
And because an additional 2 or 3 lbs on my shoulder does not break this camel's back; because I personally find heavier rifles easier to control in the wind or with heavy breathing; and because the recoil levels are similar on the lighter rifles/calibers and my heavier rifles/calibers, I shoot my heavier rifles/calibers as well as others shoot their lighter rifles/calibers, and I hit bigger, heavier and harder.
There is no real arguing that whatever a .375 does to a buff a .416 does better, and whatever a mild .3o does to large plains games a strong .33 does better, as long as all bullets arrive in the same place. To me, the extra 2 or 3 lbs to lug around are well worth the extra punch, without paying a real price in recoil, which is generally what sends bullets flying out of target...

That does not make me right over Red Leg, njc110381, it just means that we place our cost/benefit analysis in rifle weight vs. rifle power in two different places, while still delivering the same shots with similar recoils. As to whether .33 and .416 are NEEDED over .30 and .375, it is a matter of personal opinion. I personally do not think that it is NEEDED per se, but I personally like the extra margin of safety 10,000 miles and $10,000 away from home, and after all, when one drop of blood means you own it, as my byline says: there ain't not such thing as too dead.

Another example of different perspective njc110381, is that Red Leg travels with one rifle. I always take two. My rationale is again that 10,000 miles and $10,000 away from home I will have a level of backup and I do not bet on a decent rifle being available in camp if mine somehow fails.

I hope I do not come across as advocating shoddy accuracy, and God forbid I would come across as advocating shooting at an entire buff! But the reality is that buff, elk, moose, hartebeest, wildebeest, kudu, etc. never mind eland! all have a vital area exceeding 12" in diameter. A carefully placed bullet anywhere within this area will result in an ethical kill (some will be instantaneous, and some will inexplicable take longer, we all know that) regardless of whether the bullet hits 2" right, left, high or low from one's point of aim, and this is assuming that said point of aim on the outside of the animal actually lines up perfectly with the very best placement on the internal organs... I agree that the shot needs to be "made ... very, very accurately" (and sometimes "quickly") but the point I was trying to make relating to shooting well a DG gun, is that one does not need a 1/4 MOA rifle and 1/2 MOA gunnery to hunt dangerous game... A hit anywhere in the upper heart & lung 1/2 square foot area of a buff is not a hit "in the general proximity", it is in "exactly the right place"

Actually, and in full agreement with your strongly emphasized theme of client's responsibility, on DG I am fully comfortable with a scenarios where the shooter/rifle combo hits a buff consistently, each time, every time within 2 or even 3 MOA (i.e. 2" or even 3" group at 100 yd). as hinted previously, I would bet pretty solid money that few people, included the PHs themselves can do better with iron sights

PS: I am curious Red Leg, is the R8 .375 H&H really 6 lbs 6 oz without scope as the Blaser info states?

Rapier or broadsword - I like a rapier - with a fine Solinghen blade ! And yes. The rifle is almost petit - particularly with the minimalistic English sporter classic stock. Mine - with scope, mounts, and a magazine full of 300 gr A -Frames weighs 8.7 lbs. And an absolutely perfect trigger. And the ergonomics are so perfect that it almost aims itself. So perfect, I truly do not notice recoil.

The M-60 was a fine weapon in its day. I simply found nothing redeeming in me lugging the bloody thing.

 

[tarbe]

The M-60 was a fine weapon in its day. I simply found nothing redeeming in me lugging the bloody thing.

So true...and made me happy to be an 0351 and not an 0331!

 

[One Day...]

Rapier or broadsword - I like a rapier - with a fine Solinghen blade ! And yes. The rifle is almost petit - particularly with the minimalistic English sporter classic stock. Mine - with scope, mounts, and a magazine full of 300 gr A -Frames weighs 8.7 lbs. And an absolutely perfect trigger. And the ergonomics are so perfect that it almost aims itself. So perfect, I truly do not notice recoil.

The M-60 was a fine weapon in its day. I simply found nothing redeeming in me lugging the bloody thing.

So true...and made me happy to be an 0351 and not an 0331!

Rapier - we are going to have to talk about the .257 Wby LOL. I am taking it this summer for another dozen species of 10 to 300 lbs plains game...

R8 - As you know I am tempted... I need to find one to shoot first. Too bad your are in TX and me in AZ...

M60 / AA 52 (same difference!) - yep, well served they sure made a difference. Same concept here, to me the 5.56 FN minimi is a nice thing, but I liked the harder hitting 7.62/7.5. Tell you what, not too many heads popped up over cover when these things were singing... Ditto on "assault" rifle vs. "battle" rifle. Maybe because I was a kid from the French Alps who carried heavy climbing packs from a pretty young age, but I did not, and still do not, mind humping the beast...

 

[One Day...]

Rapier or broadsword - I like a rapier

Long live the broadsword!

 

[WAB]

A truly great movie!

 

[Dr Ray]

An 8 1/2 lbs scoped .300 Ultra Mag. shooting 180 gr. at 3,230 fps produces 32.8 ft/lbs of free recoil at 15.8 fps. If yours is truly 7 lbs when you shoot it, it kicks back in the 37 ft/lbs range.

By the numbers, this makes it similar to a 9 lbs .375 H&H Mag. shooting 300 gr at 2,530 fps and producing 37.3 ft/lbs of free recoil at 16.3 fps. However, if your .375 is scoped, it is likely in the 10 1/2 lbs range therefore it kicks back in the 32 ft/lbs range, 15% less than a 7 lbs .300 RUM.

As to the .416 Wby, it is a beast producing 83 ft/lbs of recoil at 22.8 fps in a 10 1/4 lbs rifle shooting 400 gr at 2,700 fps.

PS 1: I also note the consistent (therefore possibly statistically significant ?) perception from most shooters that the math does not tell the entire story, especially when it comes to hyper-velocity calibers like the RUM, Wby, etc. These are generally perceived to kick back out of proportion with what the math says. Hmmm...???

PS 2: I am told that real men shoot 500 gr at 2,600 fps out of their 11 1/4 lb .460 Wby for an even 100 ft/lbs of free recoil, but this is just a cheap shot at the real pros: they shoot .577 NE 750 gr slugs at 2,050 fps out of their 12 lbs doubles with 127 ft/lbs of free recoil, and the real brave ones shoot .600 NE 900 gr slugs at 1,950 fps out of their 12 lbs doubles with 154 ft/lbs of free recoil... More men than I am

Me too!

 

[Red Leg]

View attachment 261437
Long live the broadsword!

Sigh. Truly great movie. But this ain't Hollywood and you ain't Liam Neeson (to paraphrase Matthew Quigley)

But tell you what. If you don't have your own, I'll loan you a basket hilt saber (late 18th century Highland). Then you can grab the blade of one of my rapiers - bare handed (I have a mid-18th century Toledo blade with which one could shave that would be perfect). If you can prevent me from pulling it free you get an unopposed blow. We'll let Tarbe officiate. You won't need a bandage, but a tourniquet wouldn't be misplaced.

You are right. A general purpose MG can make a huge difference in a fire fight. Nothing like those 7.62 rounds cutting through walls and trees. Problem has always been carrying an adequate supply of ammunition. Why a Wermacht infantry squad was really built around servicing the MG 42 (everyone schlepping ammo belts). Also why the appearance of a .50 cal M2 is still the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon in a platoon action - It cuts through anything. Infantry units will have robotic .50's in the next few years. Mounted on a very small robotic ATV that will also carry ammo, water, etc. The prototypes use hybrid power to provide a charging point for all the batteries a platoon now uses. Equipped with Gen 5 optics, they can be operated remotely from a secure firing position (gunner aims and fires from the equivalent of a tactical IPAD. My business unit was demoing one at Fort Benning in 2014 when I retired.

And yes, we airborne rangers stand in awe of French Alpine troops.

 

[One Day...]

Sigh. Truly great movie. But this ain't Hollywood and you ain't Liam Neeson (to paraphrase Matthew Quigley)

But tell you what. If you don't have your own, I'll loan you a basket hilt saber (late 18th century Highland). Then you can grab the blade of one of my rapiers - bare handed (I have a mid-18th century Toledo blade with which one could shave that would be perfect). If you can prevent me from pulling it free you get an unopposed blow. We'll let Tarbe officiate. You won't need a bandage, but a tourniquet wouldn't be misplaced.

You are right. A general purpose MG can make a huge difference in a fire fight. Nothing like those 7.62 rounds cutting through walls and trees. Problem has always been carrying an adequate supply of ammunition. Why a Wermacht infantry squad was really built around servicing the MG 42 (everyone schlepping ammo belts). Also why the appearance of a .50 cal M2 is still the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon in a platoon action - It cuts through anything. Infantry units will have robotic .50's in the next few years. Mounted on a very small robotic ATV that will also carry ammo, water, etc. The prototypes use hybrid power to provide a charging point for all the batteries a platoon now uses. Equipped with Gen 5 optics, they can be operated remotely from a secure firing position (gunner aims and fires from the equivalent of a tactical IPAD. My business unit was demoing one at Fort Benning in 2014 when I retired.

And yes, we airborne rangers stand in awe of French Alpine troops.

What !?!?!? You mean that all that we see in the movies is not real ??? Oooohhh the disappointment and disillusion. Deep long sobs... and roaring laughter

OK, OK, the rapier wins LOL. Funny that a guy like you would would not even consider launching less than 180 gr from a .300 goes to the mat on the light side of .375/300 gr vs. .416/400 gr on buff LOL. Never mind .458/500 gr! Don't we all have our own quirks ;-)

Amen on the 12.7 mm Browning (OK, the .50 cal M2 in your parlance). Awesome it is indeed. I was the witness of a quad mount on an antiquated half-track softening up an hillside in the 80's, and man was I happy to be on the action side rather than the flash hider side... Not much was left on the receiving end... Amen too on the MG. I had the opportunity to shoot the modern MG3 (significantly slower cyclic rate than the MG42), but it was promptly obvious why everyone carried belts for it LOL

Don't know if you are serious or kidding, but my understanding is that US servicemen who have actually served alongside French troops in Asia, Africa or the sand box (including Alpine troops in Afghanistan) hold them to be every bit their equal. And I can tell you for a fact that many SEALs have come and shared into French Commando Marine training (and left with deep respect), and that not too long ago US SOCOM folks deployed to Afghanistan started their tour with a training at the French Djibouti Foreign Legion Commando Training Center (which generally left them speechless). I also believe, but I am not sure, that Rangers still attend regularly the French Foreign Legion Jungle School in Guyana. That was true in my days. Not sure if it still is.

Do not feel bad about having abandoned perfectly good flying airplanes, this is another brotherhood we share. I am assuming that you recolonize these two. They are dusty but cherished...

 

[Red Leg]

Worked with some of your folks on two occasions, once an exercise and once Desert Storm. Fine soldiers one and all (well not sure about those Alpine fellows).

Never worked with the Legion. But, of course, they know North and West Africa like no others.

You should indeed be very proud of both those badges. Look forward sitting down over something amber someday and sharing a tale or two.

 

[One Day...]

recolonize these two

Another priceless auto spellchecker gem LOL
Obviously meant "recognize"

 

[njc110381]

I hope that I do not come across as advocating shoddy accuracy, and God forbid I would come across as advocating shooting at an entire buff! But the reality is that buff, elk, moose, hartebeest, wildebeest, kudu, etc. never mind eland! all have a vital area exceeding 12" in diameter. A carefully placed bullet anywhere within this area will result in an ethical kill (some will be instantaneous, and some will inexplicably take longer, we all know that!) regardless of whether the bullet hits 2" right, left, high or low from one's point of aim, and this is assuming that said point of aim on the outside of the animal actually lines up perfectly with the very best placement on the internal organs... I agree that the shot needs to be "made ... very, very accurately" (and sometimes "quickly") but the point I was trying to make relating to shooting well a DG gun, is that one does not need a 1/4 MOA rifle and 1/2 MOA gunnery to hunt dangerous game... A hit anywhere in the upper-heart & lung 1/2 square foot area of a buff is not a hit "in the general proximity," it is in "exactly the right place"

Now we're talking! I spend a lot of time "not arguing" with British deer stalkers about the required accuracy to make a kill. If a chap posts up a picture of a 2" group it all kicks off, folk everywhere saying he needs more time on the gun before shooting deer etc. I don't believe that's the case. Of course better grouping is no bad thing, but as long as a boundary is set so as a shot is only taken within the capable range of the shooter, all is well. I can't shoot under 1" with the iron sights on my drilling and I couldn't do that with the combi gun that it replaced either. But that combi accounted for an awful lot of deer.

I will of course do my best to be able to hit a 3" gong off hand at 100m, but it's going to take some doing! And as for Red Leg's question of why I need a .458 if I can shoot a .375 well... It seems you have the same issue I do - just because one thing works well doesn't mean you can't try another half a dozen things for the same task just for the sake of doing it!

 

[Nyati]

@njc110381 , if you like the idea of using a .458, well yes, by all means, do it. But you really don´t need it for hunting a buffalo, or any other animal.

Like @Red Leg , I am a firm believer in traveling light. Two years as an infantryman, and many years climbing mountains for a hobby gave me the habit of actually weighing my equipment to choose the lightest items.

That buffalo you see on my avatar was killed instantly with a neck shot, I used a Heym African Express Light in .375HH, with Federal Premium 300gr. Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

Making clean one shot kills brings me the utmost satisfaction as a hunter.

 

[njc110381]

I guess I've always wanted a .40+. I am wondering if a .416 Rigby may have been a better all round choice but that doesn't matter for now. I'd like to at least experience the Lott even if I don't take to it.

The way I see it, bigger is better as long as I can handle it. If I can't handle it I'll step down a bit and try again. As I've said, the .375H&H was a lovely rifle to shoot so I know that will work if it comes to it. If it costs me a few hundred pounds to learn a lesson then I'm ok with that.

 

[Shootist43]

njc110381, now if you were talking a 404 Jeffery instead of the 458 Lott we'd be on the same page. If for sale postings are any indication of preferences, there are a many more 458 Lott(s) for sale than there are 404 Jeffery(s). IMHO there is a reason for that.

 

[One Day...]

Truth be told...

There is no fly on the .375 H&H and we all know that and admire it for what it is. Certainly including me.

As encapsulated very ably by a century of experience from folks who shot individually a lot more dangerous game (DG) than we collectively have, and as institutionalized in today's regulations in most DG countries, the .375 H&H is a very rationale minimum (emphasis: MINIMUM) caliber for DG.

That also, quite logically, makes it likely the best compromise (emphasis: COMPROMISE) for a one-rifle safari that includes both DG and plains game (PG).

I am tempted to add "period," so definitive and universally accepted are the above statements.

But few folks in their right mind or cool head would omit the word "minimum" in their reasoning and argue that the .375 is an IDEAL DG rifle. Otherwise, and again based on a century of experience from folks who shot a whole lot more DG than we have, all the above .40 calibers would likely not have flourished. After all, few and far between are the great pros, either contemporary or historical, who use(d) the .375 H&H, even for their own hunting. And that is a fact.

So, if, as Red Leg and Nyati, and many others do, one takes only one rifle to Africa for a mixed bag that includes a buff, one would be hard pressed to find a better compromise (again, that word: COMPROMISE). Conversely, those of us who take two rifles to Africa, are likely better served with a lighter/smaller/flatter shooting rifle for PG (many will say .300, .318, .325, .33 but some will also say .26, .27, .28, i.e. similar debate ;-) and a heavier rifle for DG (many will say .404, .416. 458, .470 but some will also say .500, i.e. again, similar debate ).

I like (emphasis: LIKE) to take two rifles to Africa. My last trip with emphasis on heavy PG and buff saw me totting along a .340 Wby and a double .470. To me, it was perfect. But I purposefully did not hunt DG and PG simultaneously
Others like (emphasis: LIKE) to take only one rifle. Red Leg is now joined at the hip with his R8 .375 (although my little pinky tells me that he has been know to cheat and take an additional barrel along LOL). To him, it is perfect. He likes to take PG along his way to DG.
We are both RIGHT...

 

[One Day...]

njc110381, now if you were talking a 404 Jeffery instead of the 458 Lott we'd be on the same page. If for sale postings are any indication of preferences, there are a many more 458 Lott(s) for sale than there are 404 Jeffery(s). IMHO there is a reason for that.

Aaaah! Practicality, realism and actual historical use (.404) over romance (.416 Rigby). And the winner is...

Why on earth did CZ stop offering it as a $1,000 factory standard? They would sell is as hot cakes...

 

[njc110381]

Comparing the .404 Jeffery and the .416 Rigby, they look pretty similar. Besides the fact that the one that sounds smaller is actually slightly bigger and the slightly bigger one has a smaller case, there's very little difference. Surely it comes down to one's feelings more than actual performance? One could be slightly more efficient perhaps, but there can't be much in it?

I've been looking at big calibres for a while and it's rare I see a Jeffery for sale here. Currently on Guntrader (probably the biggest UK gun advertising website) there are 14 .375H&H, 7 .416 Rigby's, 3 .458 Mag's and 1 Lott. Not a single Jeffery to be seen and that's often the case!

No bother either way. I'm buying a Lott and that's that! It ticks all the boxes that I've made up in my head!

 

[One Day...]

Comparing the .404 Jeffery and the .416 Rigby, they look pretty similar. Besides the fact that the one that sounds smaller is actually slightly bigger and the slightly bigger one has a smaller case, there's very little difference. Surely it comes down to one's feelings more than actual performance? One could be slightly more efficient perhaps, but there can't be much in it?

I've been looking at big calibres for a while and it's rare I see a Jeffery for sale here. Currently on Guntrader (probably the biggest UK gun advertising website) there are 14 .375H&H, 7 .416 Rigby's, 3 .458 Mag's and 1 Lott. Not a single Jeffery to be seen and that's often the case!

No bother either way. I'm buying a Lott and that's that! It ticks all the boxes that I've made up in my head!

Actually, the .404 produces significantly less recoil for virtually the same performance to 200 yd. It is clearly the more practical round. But Robert Ruark sang the praises of the Rigby and THAT is what launched the .416 in stellar orbit... Thousands of .404 were issued to various Game Departments in Africa, but barely a few hundred Rigby were built before CZ flooded the market with them over the last decade, and a smart business move it was...

My personal view (going to get hot again on the thread LOL) is that I left the .375 bandwagon for the .40 bandwagon (in my case of Rigby because I am a sentimental fellow) because .404/.416 offer virtually the same ballistics to 200 yd as the .375 does, but they hit noticeably harder.

The .458 Lott is definitely yet in a different class. Think .470 NE ballistic twin...

Of course, you need one of each (.375 H&H, 404 Jeffery, .416 Rigby, .458 Lott, .470 NE), then you agonize over which one to take and anyway it is irrelevant because you cannot afford to go to Africa anymore owing to all the money you have tied up in guns that you do not shoot LOL

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I shoot my 404 as well as I shoot my 30-06 although the 404 is a bit more accurate.

Not sure why I wouldn’t shoot it as well. Get the most stable position, Natural point of aim, breathing, squeeze the trigger. Don’t see where caliber or recoil come into the equation.

now, if the question is which can I shoot more rounds comfortably at any one time, of course it’s the 30-06. I wouldn’t want to shoot a prone match with the 404. But I’ve shot a few animals that way and it is quite an accurate rifle.

 

[Rare Breed]

Having started the process of buying a Lott and starting to research it a bit, I've read some quite interesting comments from people in other posts. It seems there are various opinions on this round, from "get on and shoot it" to "never again"! I guess I'm wondering on average how many people can't cope with it and how many think it's fine?

In my experience of shooting I've never fired a round this big. What I have learned though is I think it's recoil velocity that bothers me. Fast, snappy rounds like the .270 and .300 Win Mag offend me a little, big slow rounds like shotgun slugs, hot .45-70 and .375H&H I find absolutely fine. I'm not worried about it as such, but it is making me wonder whether I should work up a load and start with a light load or whether I should just load it up, grab it firmly by the throat and get on with it?! It's not a fast round so I'm expecting the recoil to be a good hard thump, but nothing offensive?

I guess what I'm asking is for those of you who have used one, what did you think of it? Fine, tolerable or don't own it any more?!

450-400 NE