The saga of the Rhodesian Shotgun

[IvW]

It is not only a Rhodesia issue......

 

[EDELWEISS]

I have a few ex SS friends my understanding of the use of the shotgun on patrols was to get the heads down of the enemy while walking into a ambush while on patrol.
One of the formations used was called scorpion. Basically two guys leading one left one right some in line and then the scorpion tail. The stinger of the scorpion tail was always on the high ground left or right depending on terrain and was normally the machine gunner.
As soon as the ine or two guys on point hit contact they could spray quick fire 9 shots to get the enemy to duck for cover and give the patrol chance to get organized.

I will ask in more detail when we get together again and give some feedback.

Interesting. I have heard about the scorpion tail tactic; but never involving shotguns

 

[IvW]

The two claws of the scorpion(referred to as point) or at least one was the shotgun man......not to neccesarily kill but to get them to drop down giving vital seconds to regroup and get organized....as stated I will confirm at our next SF get together.....

 

[Uncharted_NT]

@EDELWEISS on a side note re shotguns in Rhodesia. A certain regular Selous Scout and PH who i spent a lot of time with in Africa and Aus, told me a few times of carrying a cut down Franchi semi auto 12g. It had been a personal sporting gun which he cut down for use in the hundo. Carried it on a single point sling and in the event of an ambush would dump the 5 rounds where the fire was coming from then switch to the FN. There was a bit more to the story involving shot shells with certain "additives" but that's not for telling here.

 

[Wheels]

I dont think the world wanted to hear the truth. The truth is often difficult to hear, it can make you change all the things you based your life around....

From an anthropological standpoint, much of Afrika's "problems" were caused by lines on a map. Imagine you and your family and friends have lived together in the same place for as long as anyone can remember. Then along comes someone who says half of your family now lives on the other side of the line AND that other family (that you never got along with), now is on your side of the line. You dont like them and now you have to live with them every day. Picture modern gangs in LA or NY suddenly having to live with rival gangs in the "new" neighborhood.

By most accounts, most (many) Whites and Blacks largely co-existed well, more so for the families that live in more remote areas. It was a mutual respect and leave me the F alone concept. Also bear in mind that most of the Whites had lived in Africa for generations. Yes there was an accepted "We are White"; but there was also a "We are _________ this tribe", and "We" dont want anything to do with you (remember the lines on the map thing). Its only the WOKE world that says we are all the same. So largely dont bother me and I wont bother you.

As years passed and Rhodesia became more and more independent, governments formed and yes they were White dominated with limited access for Blacks. The Army somehow existed with White and Black troops. So did the BSAP and YES promotions and leadership positions were limited for Blacks; but that was changing albeit slowly; maybe too slowly; but it was changing. When Britain demanded immediate changes; the Rhodesians had enough and declared independence, with the UDI.

Rhodesians suddenly became pariahs to the world. Imagine that??? A nation that decided they didnt want Britain to tell them how to live??? When Rhodesia declared independence two factions of Blacks sought support ZANU and ZAPU were armed and indoctrinated by the USSR and Red China. Cuban troops provided training and leadership. They staged in Zambia and Mozambique (where they were also fighting Portuguese troops.

Back in the late 1940s we were told about the international conspiracy to spread communism around the world. We saw films of red ink being poured over the globe. History showed us Russian troops going into eastern block countries. We saw Asia falling to Communism. The Brits dealt with Malaysia and the French fought their own war in Indo China before the US sent support to VietNam beginning in the 50s. By the time Rhodesia declared its UDI the west was weary of fighting and beginning to reap its own cost for their "everyone is wonderful" ideologies.

Today Rhodesia is remembered a White racist country that was beaten by Blacks. No one chooses to recall that the Rhodesian Army was 80+% Black. No one wants to remember that ZANU and ZAPU slaughtered more Blacks than Whites. No one wants to remember that Mugabe killed is "friend" ally Joshua Nkomo so that he wouldnt be a threat AND because he was from (wait for it)..... a different tribe....

Really enjoying this thread. Thanks for the effort you have put into it.

You mentioned ZANU staged in Zambia and Mozambique. I will just add that Zanu had training facilities in Tanzania as well. I don't know where the training facilities were, but there was a period of time when whites couldn't take the road between Songea and Lindi/Mtwara along the southern border. Word in the bush, the area was used for training Zanu and Frelimo.

I have an affinity for the A5. Below I am holding my brothers. It did not have a butt pad so my father put a condom butt pad on for me. I don't know the year of the A5 but it was probably made in the late 50's or early 60's. I realize the photo is not relevant to the topic but your thread has brought back some fond memories. Thanks!

 

[EDELWEISS]

@EDELWEISS on a side note re shotguns in Rhodesia. A certain regular Selous Scout and PH who i spent a lot of time with in Africa and Aus, told me a few times of carrying a cut down Franchi semi auto 12g. It had been a personal sporting gun which he cut down for use in the hundo. Carried it on a single point sling and in the event of an ambush would dump the 5 rounds where the fire was coming from then switch to the FN. There was a bit more to the story involving shot shells with certain "additives" but that's not for telling here.

Thanks for the update. Thats the first time I heard of carrying a shotgun and FAL. Now iots not uncommon but I never heard of it in the Bush War. These are the facts that I started this thread to learn.

 

[Uncharted_NT]

Thanks for the update. Thats the first time I heard of carrying a shotgun and FAL. Now iots not uncommon but I never heard of it in the Bush War. These are the facts that I started this thread to learn.

He carried a FN with some modifications for most stuff, for the pseudo work he carried a Yugo M70. The shotgun wasn't carried for pseudo work.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Now back to the SHOTGUN portion of this thread, although Im sure I'll have more political ranting to follow....


Apparently there were two lots of FN Auto 5 Shotguns shipped intended for Rhodesia, one late 1960s other early 1970s. I have no way to confirm this; but it does seem reasonable. Its based on internet sources of the "known" police serial numbers and the actions circumvent the arms embargo. The dates are by no means exact.

The guns were likely taken from police models on hand to complete the order. Again this was based on known guns with B-prefix all the way to S-prefix that have been identified over the years bearing the Rhodesian-added RA Numbers.

It is very hard to get exact data as the UN embargo made precise record keeping a potential legal problem for guns known to destined for Rhodesia.

Heres the TIMELINE that makes most sense

1963 first embargo against South Africa. It was largely a "voluntary" affair
1965 MANDATORY UN embargo for Rhodesia, when it declares independence.
1977 MANDATORY Embargo against South Africa

The demand for arms in Rhodesia soared starting in 1966 with open fighting military campaigns,

The main routes to Rhodesia:

South Africa: Main supplier with most of the details intentionally unknown.
Portugal: once they pulled out of Mozambique in 1974, with a significant number of G3 rifles sent though South Africa from 1976~1977.
Yugoslavia: supplied 7.62 NATO ammo with unmarked cartridge heads

Portugal needed $$$ for their own Bush War. They also had a common interest with Rhodesia, and since they were not embargoed, they could buy arms. Controls on police weapons seems to be less rigorous than military arms. It may be that unlike military arms, police guns had no requirement for the manufacturer to be informed after the initial end user certificate/sale was completed, (???). Military arms transfers contain(ed) a clause that subsequent transfers have to be approved by the initial exporting nation. These limitations and go back to just after the WWII period.

Again nothing is known for sure regarding (illegally) Rhodesian imported arms.

 

[EDELWEISS]

OMG! Are those Black and White Rhodesians working together to hunt Mugabe's Terrorists?
It couldnt be that Rhodesia wasnt as racists as youve been told. Imagine That?

Ooops there it is again, Blacks and Whites hunting terrorists together.

Whats wrong with this world? Things are NOT as I was told??? You mean Rhodesian wasnt a White Supremist regime that oppressed Blacks.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

This conflict seems very reminiscent to what I have read about the Malaya emergency. I suppose terrorism is the same the world over.
Can you recommend any good books on the bush war?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

View attachment 611997
OMG! Are those Black and White Rhodesians working together to hunt Mugabe's Terrorists?
It couldnt be that Rhodesia wasnt as racists as youve been told. Imagine That?

View attachment 611999
Ooops there it is again, Blacks and Whites hunting terrorists together.

View attachment 612000

Whats wrong with this world? Things are NOT as I was told??? You mean Rhodesian wasnt a White Supremist regime that oppressed Blacks.

The original direction of this thread was A5s used in the Bush War. Seems you are now taking it in a different and very tasteless direction. This is not why I come to this forum.

 

[cajunchefray]

View attachment 611997
OMG! Are those Black and White Rhodesians working together to hunt Mugabe's Terrorists?
It couldnt be that Rhodesia wasnt as racists as youve been told. Imagine That?

View attachment 611999
Ooops there it is again, Blacks and Whites hunting terrorists together.

View attachment 612000

Whats wrong with this world? Things are NOT as I was told??? You mean Rhodesian wasnt a White Supremist regime that oppressed Blacks.

@EDELWEISS, I appreciate this thread, and your perspective of the history of the Rhodesian wars, the West's insistence, at a governmental level to impose their viewpoint and policies, in a country they no longer have control of or understand facts on the ground.

The reality of Whites and Blacks living in this world, has always been, that some idiots will divide us along lines of Color, instead of valuing each person according to principles. It continues to this day, everywhere. It's failed thinking.

I have worked with South Africans, Black and White, that were involved in the Rhodesian bush wars. There is a perspective that can be gained by their stories. Your reports and pictures point out the harsh reality that some people are civil, and embrace a free life, and some people are just brutal savages that must be dealt with accordingly.

I can show you the same types, today, where I live in South Louisiana, where some Blacks espouse only violence and mayhem, and some Whites espouse attacking Blacks. It's sickening.
Growing up in rural Louisiana, Blacks and Whites have lived and worked together for generations. We get along, and respect and support each other's cultures and practices.

It's different in the bigger cities. And the big city politicians make it a bigger deal.

Is there a book, or books that I can read, that tells the complete story of Rhodesia, the bush wars, and the corruption of Rhodesia into Zimbabwe? Please advise.

Regarding the FN Browning A5 shotguns in Rhodesia, interesting story of how a finely engineered and built shotgun served a useful purpose in bush warfare.

If I had to walk point in the Rhodesian bush, an A5 with extended mag tube, loaded with buckshot would be comforting. Plus, a guy behind me with a G3 or FN-FAL.

Thank You for this posting.

 

[PerH]

 

[EDELWEISS]

I'll try this again. as it seems much of what I posted has been removed.

To understand the Rhodesian Shotgun, you have to understand Rhodesian history. There would have been no drive for the FN Auto 5 Military/Police model if there had not been a war fought by terror. As distasteful as it is to hear, Mugabe and Nokomo led gangs of murderers. They rarely attacked military targets; instead they chose civilian softer targets. Those civilians were mostly Blacks or White farmers and in both cases women and children.

In response to these brutal murders, the Rhodesian military and BSAP (police) armed themselves with the FN shotgun in addition to the FAL and G3s. A special load was developed combining Buck shot with smaller shot. Versions of the gun were used with both standard civilian configuration as well as an extended magazine and forearm.

Some here have voiced displeasure at the descriptions of the terror attacks; but without knowledge of the horrors of terror we cant understand the need to combat the war. That war changed Afrika AND it changed African hunting. If THIS is not the place to discuss the history and politics of African Hunting then where?

 

[EDELWEISS]

I appreciate clones of the FN military Auto 5. Occasionally Ive considered doing one of my own. Ive had discussions with a few gunsmiths about the project. Thus far I havent found one willing to take on the project and its waaaay beyond my capabilities.

Now that Browning has ceased production of the Auto 5 aftermarket parts are beginning to fade. I had some interest in the new A5 as a "modern" version of the "Rhodesian shotgun". The new version is inertia driven (think Benelli M4), which would make a cool modern combat gun. Since its inertia as opposed to the original recoil operated, the barrel doesnt move and a magazine tube can be clamped to the barrel. Sadly all the New A5s are marketed to the sporting buyer and do not seem an easy clone alternative.

I think good clones are an honor to the original. I also think they should be somehow identified as a clone so as not to confuse future studies. My concern with (unidentified) clones is that those not done well detract from the originals.

 

[bowjijohn]

I like your write up - you have touched upon a scintilla of Rhodesia at that time

However - I don’t think any of us thought about the tools of our trade other than that they worked

It was a unique time - in history- and in my adolescence

I don’t easily remember what went on - I don’t wish to

Anyone who has experienced such, is I suspect, reluctant to revisit it

It is though, an important history

One painted out by modern values

PS

Those images - that might offend - are nothing compared to what we carry in our heads

 

[EDELWEISS]

I like your write up - you have touched upon a scintilla of Rhodesia at that time

However - I don’t think any of us thought about the tools of our trade other than that they worked

It was a unique time - in history- and in my adolescence

I don’t easily remember what went on - I don’t wish to

Anyone who has experienced such, is I suspect, reluctant to revisit it

It is though, an important history

One painted out by modern values

PS

Those images - that might offend - are nothing compared to what we carry in our heads

Thanks for the support. I really did not expect to be censored for posting historical facts, even as unpleasant as they be....and again to understand the Rhodesian Shotgun, I think we must understand Rhodesian's history. Weapons choices and designs change as tactics change. Look at the evolution of the M16 and most recently the modification made during the last 20 years. Those changes were made BECAUSE of war. Do we say the Remington 700 is a bad gun because it it is used as a sniper rifle? OR do we choose to ignore its "darker" past because its unpleasant? Perhaps on the contrary, the advances in the weapon system were BECAUSE of its darker side. Should we choose not to discuss a weapon HERE that has its roots in war?

 

[bowjijohn]

We worked alongside the RAR

Those are the black guys in the picks

They were instrumental in giving the RLI its motto and its rep

Pugnamus amos Leo

“They fight like lions”

The RAR were elite in every sense of the concept

We were kids fighting for our way of life

Fire force was an effective strategy

However a lot of innocent folk got caught in its embrace

Those are the memories I struggle with

 

[EDELWEISS]

My choice was not to struggle with difficult memories; rather to embrace them in them in the context that they deserve.

Those who "glorify" war never seem to be the ones who fight them. Like many of us here I have my own memories of my war(s). I choose to remember the best along with insisting I dont forget the worst. I think we can agree we still have a bond, all these years later, with the ones we fought beside.

The innocents always suffer the most, more so when one side insists on targeting them because they cant defend themselves. We as soldiers must use those images and memories to strengthen our resolve

 

[PerH]

I appreciate clones of the FN military Auto 5. Occasionally Ive considered doing one of my own. Ive had discussions with a few gunsmiths about the project. Thus far I havent found one willing to take on the project and its waaaay beyond my capabilities.

Now that Browning has ceased production of the Auto 5 aftermarket parts are beginning to fade. I had some interest in the new A5 as a "modern" version of the "Rhodesian shotgun". The new version is inertia driven (think Benelli M4), which would make a cool modern combat gun. Since its inertia as opposed to the original recoil operated, the barrel doesnt move and a magazine tube can be clamped to the barrel. Sadly all the New A5s are marketed to the sporting buyer and do not seem an easy clone alternative.

I think good clones are an honor to the original. I also think they should be somehow identified as a clone so as not to confuse future studies. My concern with (unidentified) clones is that those not done well detract from the originals.

Benelli is closest similar to A5 today in its usage intended , and H&K imported them first over to the states so they became well known there .

Since lot of parts is around for them and many styles .