The saga of the Rhodesian Shotgun

[Ontario Hunter]

Hmmmmm you may be right about the fore end but every source Ive found says otherwise. As for me I have no clue. I have seen thicker versions marketed as stronger or some such design to get you to buy it IDK?

Regarding the stock nut, many (maybe all) of the actual Riot/Military guns do have a crossbolt, just like military Mausers and a few other rifles. That being said I have yet to see a cracked butt stock in any with or without it. I do know about the "recoil" spring running lengthwise in the stock. Im not sure about the tang screw hole stretching. In my limited time with multiple Auto 5's the issue Ive found is Browning/FN used screws with very fine heads. That often led to the wrong screw drivers being used which damaged the screws. Browning/FN has lock screws often on older guns the lock screws will be missing. I always assumed they were lost over time, perhaps as you suggest, its a case of stretching from impact. I had no idea if thats the case as I dont have the ability to measure that precise OR know how much the guns have been fired to test the theory. We DO know Browning ceased production of the recoil operated Auto 5 and filled the gap with the NEW A5 which shares little with the Auto 5 except a slight resemblance of the Hump Back.

My current Auto5 was made in the late 1940s It does NOT have the POL marking, identifying it as a police gun. Likewise it does not have a crossbolt on the stock. I dont have a clue how many or what type rounds have been fired through it. So far everything is TIGHT and there are no signs of cracks on the stock or forearm,. What I have been told by multiple seemingly competent gunsmiths is to change the friction rings and barrel recoil spring on any newly acquired Auto 5 of suspect age. I suppose that could be to get gunsmithing work but as the parts are available online and replaced without any special tools, that doesnt seem likely.

Im not discounting your response, you may well be correct, I just havent come to the same conclusions and I do take note of your position. Thank You

Miroku put the crossbolt through the top end of the fore end, not the stock. The crossbolt was to help hold the wood together between the barrel ring and magazine cap. It may have only been used on the magnum models. I have two A5s; a Light Twelve I bought new in the Army in 1972 and a 1961 Magnum Twelve I bought about ten years ago. The stock on the Light Twelve has stretched tang screw hole and cracked through it (very common - you can find a ton of them on ebay). The Magnum Twelve came with a Light Twelve stock (no recoil pad) and a late model Miroku fore end with thicker wood and crossbolt. Clearly, that gun had already gone through one complete set of wood before I bought it (Miroku didn't take over production of A5 until late 70s). That second fore end broke apart in my hands on the clays range. I gave up and switched to plastic. It's a bird killing machine.

I moved it's wood stock to my Light Twelve but for whatever reason the drop is not the same as the original stock (both stocks had the FN hard buttplates). It shoots high like a trap gun.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Thanks for you clarification regarding civilian guns. As for the military/police guns that ended up in Rhodesia the ONLY crossbolts Ive seen were in the grip area of the buttstock. If you look closely at the picture I posted of the two guns, you will see the crossbolt in the grip and nothing in the forearm. Perhaps there were other mods as you say; but I dont believe and jap guns ended up in Rhodesia.

The pathway to Rhodesia is generally believed to have started with FN in Belgium with End User Certificates that identified the guns as going anywhere BUT Rhodesia; most likely Portugal and South Africa. The Rhodesian guns have a large serial number range, indicating that they werent purchased in large numbers at any one time. The roundabout path to Rhodesia was to circumvent UN sanctions, Involving guns from Japan would have greatly complicated the sourcing and open the End User Certificates to more scrutiny. To be more clear, EVERY actual Rhodesian Auto 5 ever specifically identified, was made by FN in Belgium.

The police/Military guns all (that Ive seen) had a rubber buttpad. I can not speak to civilian guns and especially the "light" and "magnum" guns. The info you speak about is unknown to me regarding the police/military models.

I have seen (after market ?) mods done to forearms to include a plastic tube "spacer" that slid over the recoil spring inside the forearm. I have zero knowledge of this being done on the military guns that are the subject of this thread; but Im sure your info is useable data. Additionally Ive never heard complaints of the military/police guns having cracked forearms or buttstocks.

 

[Certus]

View attachment 610117
RA Numbers

What’s with all the tape?

 

[IvW]

The correct setting and placement of the bronze friction ring is of utmost importance. Incorrect position(below instead of above or visa versa), incorrect fitment(wrong way around) or no fitment at all will lead to severe piunding of the mechanism.....correctly fitted for heavy or light loads I have never had an issue.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Thanks for you clarification regarding civilian guns. As for the military/police guns that ended up in Rhodesia the ONLY crossbolts Ive seen were in the grip area of the buttstock. Perhaps there were other mods as you say; but I dont believe and jap guns ended up in Rhodesia. The police/Military guns all (that Ive seen) had a rubber buttpad.

I have seen after market (?) mods done to forearms to include a plastic tube "spacer" that slid over the recoil spring under the forearm. I have zero knowledge of this being done on the military that are the subject of this thread; but Im sure your info is useable data.

The tube you're referring to comes with the aftermarket plastic stock set. Magnum springs are longer and therefore less wood/plastic between mag cap and barrel ring. The stock set will work for both magnum and Light Twelve but with shorter 2.75" spring the tube must be added. I had trouble reliably cycling trap loads with my Magnum Twelve so I bought a Light Twelve barrel spring and friction brake for it. Then I had a local machinist make a stainless steel tube similar to the plastic one that came with my plastic stock set (plastic tube not very durable). It added some weight but probably less than what was lost changing to plastic stock. The gun now cycles light loads perfectly and it will handle 3" goose loads with the light spring setup if I forget to change. But it tells me about it! Ugh!

I have never seen an A5 with a crossbolt through the wrist but it doesn't surprise me. It's definitely a weak point with that design. I wonder if FN made that modification or government armorers?

 

[PerH]

Col Charles Askins wrote about his use of a Rem with 9 shot magazine on the border and buckshot instead of a rifle on many occasion. And he tied a white rag near muzzle to see it in night time , when most of incidents on the border happened . On the US/ Mexican border .

 

[EDELWEISS]

What’s with all the tape?

RA numbers are the numbers applied by the Rhodesian Military. Im gonna guess that the RA numbers were so that particular gun could be recorded/logged and made it easier to track since the actual serial numbers were from random batches and the RA numbers could be sequential.

As to why they are covered, my guess it that there are some lists that still exist linking the RA's to the actual serial numbers. The picture isnt my gun, so Im making a further guess that the person who took the picture wants to be anonymous and thinks the numbers will lead to his identification???

 

[EDELWEISS]

The tube you're referring ...

Yes and thank you again; but as I keep trying to point out the issues you insist in pointing out are not related to the Police/Military guns. Ive never heard about those issues as related to the Rhodesian guns. IDK maybe the Rhodesian guns had the issues of which you speak, but I have NEVER heard of any of these when the Rhodesians used them in combat.

I do thank you for your interest and thoughts on Browning Auto 5 shotguns. Perhaps the civilian guns should be discussed separately so as not to dilute the conversation of the Rhodesian military guns?

 

[flying sailor]

Regarding the FAL carry handle- I came across an article some time ago mentioning why handles may have been removed. It seems that a couple troopers had received serious eye injuries due to the fact that the handle was not fully folded down against the receiver and the ejected brass deflected into the eye. Look at your FAL and see that this is possible. Other than if you are carrying by the handle it is not ready for immediate use, that is for another debate.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Col Charles Askins wrote about his use of a Rem with 9 shot magazine on the border and buckshot instead of a rifle on many occasion. And he tied a white rag near muzzle to see it in night time , when most of incidents on the border happened . On the US/ Mexican border .

Ive read Col Askins stories. The white rag is an old technique, that worked long before glow in the dark night sights. I also seem to recall some folks used a thin white line painted from the receiver to the bead. The line not only helped in low light but it also provided an aiming point when the gun wasnt held at the optimum shouldered position. The line can be seen through peripheral vision when the gun is held from a hip shooting position. It doesnt help as much with vertical point of aim; but it it is spot on whit Left/Right aiming.

 

[EDELWEISS]

The correct setting and placement of the bronze friction ring is of utmost importance. Incorrect position(below instead of above or visa versa), incorrect fitment(wrong way around) or no fitment at all will lead to severe piunding of the mechanism.....correctly fitted for heavy or light loads I have never had an issue.

YES the rings do adjust the recoil impulse of the gun for the specific load (light VS heavy shells). Ive never heard of anything besides the military issued ammo being used. Neither do I have any knowledge of soldiers being trained how to adjust the rings. My supposition is that soldiers were handed the gun and told to use it. As a previous soldier and "gun guy" which are NOT synonymous, I would venture to say that short of the gun being dragged though mud, few soldiers ever took the gun far enough apart to worry about the rings. By example, I carried a M16 for 30+ years and never once felt the need to take the parts out of the lower receiver. When I had an issue, the gun went to the unit armorer. Likewise it was my PDs policy not to allow officers to disassemble our 870s beyond removing the barrel. Yes I know how; but disassembly beyond that level was an armorer responsibility.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Regarding the FAL carry handle- I came across an article some time ago mentioning why handles may have been removed. It seems that a couple troopers had received serious eye injuries due to the fact that the handle was not fully folded down against the receiver and the ejected brass deflected into the eye. Look at your FAL and see that this is possible. Other than if you are carrying by the handle it is not ready for immediate use, that is for another debate.

Interesting... Ive never heard that. I suppose its possible but it seems unlikely, more so because no other FAL user Britain, Argentina, Israel, South Afrika, etc. had any reported issues or felt the need to remove the carry handles. My guess is it was as much soldier lore as a safety issue. When one soldier says it loud, another soldier worries that his is also loud, and another follows those two and and and. Likewise the removal of the sling. When the "cool guys" modify their equipment, other guys want to mod their guns the same way. Its also possible that the Rhodesian FALs were heavily worn from continuous use that the handles squeaked and flopped/rattled making enough noise to be a concern.

I agree that a gun being held by the carry handle (or slung by its sling), is a gun thats not ready to for immediate use. That being said most GPMGs are carried by a handle or on a sling except in actual combat. Back in the early M16 days, the Army called the part on top a carry handle. Apparently the Marines didnt like that moniker, so they renamed it a rear sight assembly mount or some such.

 

[EDELWEISS]

This is a Police/Military gun. Note the reinforcing bolt in the grip, the sling swivels, and the rubber buttpad. Also the "rack number" on the buttstock.

 

[degoins]

View attachment 610336

Despite the cool Rhodesian gear, this is NOT a police/military gun. Note the modern buttpad, the lack of stock crossbolt, no RA numbers, and the Extra long magazine tube extending beyond the forearm, and the lack of sling swivels. Its also Remington Mod 11 (no magazine cutoff). Its NOT a Browning Auto 5 and is wearing an optic. The Nydar optic operates much like a a modern day reflex sight. The gun looks cool but its NOT a Rhodesian gun

Thank you for sharing all this VERY interesting information.

 

[EDELWEISS]

This one appears to be Rhodesian "correct". Buttpad, crossbolt, sling swivels

 

[EDELWEISS]

British Trooper in Malaya. Note the long sporting barrel with a ventilated rib. Its a drawing so the artist could have skewed some things; but illustrations of this type tend to be correct

 

[EDELWEISS]

 

[EDELWEISS]

British military designation L23A1.

 

[EDELWEISS]

Take note of the rounded grip "knob", Browning discontinued the rounded knob in the late 1960s.

All known actual FN made Police/Military model guns have the squared off grip

 

[EDELWEISS]

I want to be clear, there is no doubt Rhodesia was in dire need of weapons to fight its war. They were being attacked by TWO armies supplied and trained by Russia and China. Additionally Cuban troops were in the combat zone. Civilians, both Black and White were regular targets of the guerilla forces. As a result civilians also needed weapons. Many weapons were "pressed into service" much as the UK did with the rapid design and acceptance of the STEn gun. The LDP (Land Defense Pistol) often called the RhUZI because it somewhat resembled the UZI and used readily available UZI mags. Several other "guns" were improvised and issued. No doubt there may have been many weapons drawn from what would otherwise be civilian weapons which might have included sporting shotguns

Heres a Rhodesian family prepared to say, "Hippity Hoppity get off my property or I'll slot your floppy" Dad is armed with a FAL minus the carry handle and sling. Mom has the LDP and oldest daughter a Webley revolver. They might not be SAS but I wouldnt want to piss them off