The saga of the Rhodesian Shotgun

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Note the Trooper on the far Right, Hes armed with a Shotgun. Its the a FN Auto 5 Police/Military Model. Its the short magazine version with a square grip and sling. I think but cant confirm the soldiers are Selous Scouts. Also note the mix of shorts on the guy with the shotgun and long pants on the guy next to him.
 
I want to be clear, there is no doubt Rhodesia was in dire need of weapons to fight its war. They were being attacked by TWO armies supplied and trained by Russia and China. Additionally Cuban troops were in the combat zone. Civilians, both Black and White were regular targets of the guerilla forces. As a result civilians also needed weapons. Many weapons were "pressed into service" much as the UK did with the rapid design and acceptance of the STEn gun. The LDP (Land Defense Pistol) often called the RhUZI because it somewhat resembled the UZI and used readily available UZI mags. Several other "guns" were improvised and issued. No doubt there may have been many weapons drawn from what would otherwise be civilian weapons which might have included sporting shotguns
View attachment 610361
Heres a Rhodesian family prepared to say, "Hippity Hoppity get off my property or I'll slot your floppy" Dad is armed with a FAL minus the carry handle and sling. Mom has the LDP and oldest daughter a Webley revolver. They might not be SAS but I wouldnt want to piss them off
it is already terrible to go through something like this without children, but to endure this burden with the girls?
I would be very interested to know the fate of this family.
What became of them?
Where and how do they live today, if they are still alive?
What nonsense to proclaim independence and sacrifice the country's youth under these circumstances (yes, I know, I'm always smarter afterwards).
 
it is already terrible to go through something like this without children, but to endure this burden with the girls?
I would be very interested to know the fate of this family.
What became of them?
Where and how do they live today, if they are still alive?
What nonsense to proclaim independence and sacrifice the country's youth under these circumstances (yes, I know, I'm always smarter afterwards).
Wars are always hardest on the civilians, especially the children. Some are crushed by it and others grow stronger because of it. What I see in that photograph is first a family, and then a family that says this is mine and you cant take it without a fight.

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Its the same in all wars. This is a pic from Ukraine. I dont have any other details but what I see is someone saying the same thing. "This is mine, it may not be much; but its mine and you cant have it without a fight"

Ok and maybe "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?" "Lets find out..."
 
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DONT FORGET THE FAMOUS STREET SWEEPER
 
My friend who was a Selous Scout says the shotgun battle pack he saw were packs of ten and the cases were plastic?

Lon
 
I think I've seen that photo before and that it was of Grey's Scouts, not the Selous Scouts. AH member Kevin Thomas in Shadows In An African Twilight describes how the Selous Scouts experimented with horses but they were unsuited to the role.
Catherine Phillips-Robertson's book My African Sunrise From Golden Memories to Dust provides insights into family life on Rhodesian farms in those times. Absolute respect.
 
Ahhhhh the Streetweeper or as it was called in South Afrika, The STRIKER.. Streetsweeper was the American version made or at least marketed by Cobray (of Mac 10 fame). The Striker was never intended to be a combat weapon, rather being designed for local civilian sales as a self defense weapon.

It was a 12 gauge gun with a 12 shot rotating cylinder. Similar to a double action revolver with a clock spring that you had to wind to assist rotating the cylinder and ejecting the spent cartridges. It had a front pistol grip and a top folding stock.

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The barrel length was somewhere between 12 and 18" (18 when it was imported to the US to avoid NFA rules). The quality was far below the FN Auto 5 and FALs, picture it being on par with a STEn, as in not a Mercedes but better than a sharp stick. Honestly they (like the STEn and Mac 10s) get a lot of trash talk; but they really arent bad. The Striker isnt a Baaad weapon, its clunky and a bit heavy; but its stocked with 12 rounds of "go away or we'll feed whats left of you to the hogs"

The Striker like the LDP (Land Defense Pistol) was meant to arm civilians, especially those families living in remote areas (farms) which were prime targets for the guerillas. At best those families might have had a radio to call neighbors for help. Expecting government troops of police to arrive in time was a fantasy. Farmers lived where they lived knowing they were on their own.

Homes became fortresses; or maybe were the same fortifications that their families had been using since they made the original Trek north. Walls were often a couple feet thick (or more), and windows had narrow opening on the outside and wider on the inside. The larger interior opening meant families inside had a wider field of fire while anyone outside had a small opening to shoot. Doors were likewise thick and could be barricaded from the inside. Ive heard reports but never saw any confirmation, that some homes had tunnels to an outbuilding for escape. I have seen "root cellars" and "safe rooms" stocked with supplies it include weapons and ammo.


**** when the gun was imported to the US the Cobray model had a 18" barrel to make it US civilian legal. Later ATF (before they added E), reclassified it as a Destructive Device, making it a NFA weapon. They determined that since it had NO SPORTING Purpose, and that a 12 gauge round was over the 1/2" max for non sporting weapon, its sales should be regulated.

For US civilians, I put it in the same I want category as a Mac 10. Its cool but there are better options. As for Rhodesian (and South African) families, it was a good option when options were few. Back then would I rather have a FAL, G3, UZI, STEn or even a Auto 5--YES; but "rathers" often leave your hands empty when "here and nows" are available.
 
Ah, such a friendly chap. :D Ask around and I'm sure you will discover most of the bush troops with A5s tossed their friction brakes. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they were shipped to Rhodesia without them.

For those interested in restoring one of these uique weapons, it would be good to know not all trigger assembies were made the same. The difference between Prince of Wales grip and flat grip trigger assemblies is subtle but enough to make them not interchangeable. Very few folks know that. If purchasing a replacement part, make sure it's late production. Thought that might be helpful. Sorry it didn't come across more clearly.

What I do find surprising is that the A5 would ever have been selected as a combat shotgun. I love mine but would never want to bet my life on one. For that I would call my old 870 out of retirement. Or better yet, my Model 12. I'm not sure I've ever seen a Model 12 made for combat but sure have handled quite a few of its predecessor Winchester Model 97 "trench guns." Both Model 12 and 97 are slam fire capable and will actually shoot much more rapidly than a double-shuffle A5. And the reliability of a pump action vs semi is unquestionable, especially in harsh environments. Also, I'm guessing an A5 was twice as costly to manufacture and maintain. It certainly was an odd choice, especially for tropical conditions.

The crossbolt through the wrist was apparently unique to this military model. It is an acknowledgement of one of the A-5s original design flaws that neither John nor Val Browning for whatever reason ever addressed in spite of the A5 being modified several times. Again, did FN actually add the crossbolt for these or was it done by the military? I have to wonder how effective that reinforcement actually worked. Not much wood in that area to start with (remember the action spring tube is contained in the hollow stock and both tangs are recessed above and below it).
Im glad we could reach an understanding and again I do appreciate your knowledge.

Are there BETTER combat shotguns than the Auto 5? Were they available THEN? Perhaps more to the point which guns were available to be IMPORTED. US guns were definitely NOT an option. Remember the guns had to be purchased with a END USER CERTIFICATE that said they werent going to Rhodesia. Id bet there were a few "Winks and Nods" may during the transactions but it had to appear above board. Perhaps thats part of the reason so few were acquired???

The Rhodesian Bush War was in the same Time Line as the ending of the US involvement in Viet Nam. Back then the modern fighting shotgun was just coming of age. Sure the 1897 and yes the Model 12 were combat proven BUT they were US guns and NOT available. Conversely The Brits (and for that matter the US), had been using the Auto 5 in combat since before the 50s AND it had proven itself in Malaya.

I think we are going to have to disagree about the worthiness of the Auto 5 for combat. Perhaps all the flaws you mention are correct, IDK; but I do know I have not found even one report of problems with them from soldiers. Ive heard bitiching about the FAL and G3 and MAG and a few pistols; but nothis about the Auto 5. Even with that, I have personally carried a STEn in "angry places". Would I have preferred a UZI or a MP5, sure but once I knew my STEn (MKII) and the mags worked well together I was OK with it. Admittedly the user list of Auto 5 police guns is small. Remember they werent used as a replacement for the FAL/G3; but only as a specialized tool. So, I have to believe that some reports or complaints would have surfaced.
 
I think I've seen that photo before and that it was of Grey's Scouts, not the Selous Scouts. AH member Kevin Thomas in Shadows In An African Twilight describes how the Selous Scouts experimented with horses but they were unsuited to the role.
Catherine Phillips-Robertson's book My African Sunrise From Golden Memories to Dust provides insights into family life on Rhodesian farms in those times. Absolute respect.
Im not sure, I suppose it could be either. You make good points

The short pants give me pause. The general thinking is shorts pretty much ended when weapon camouflage began. Theres no hard and fast date for that; but it supposedly happened when captured guerillas claimed they could see the long black rifles (and White legs) easily in the bush. Soooo IF that is correct the rider with the shorts confuses me, as all the Grey's Scouts was a unit that was formed later in the war. All the pics Ive seen of them are wearing long pants. Admittedly thats NOT a scientific deduction and Ive never had a face to face conversation with anyone from either unit to ask the question (but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once....)
 
Wincheste made the model 12 trench gun. Used in WWII, Korea and Viet Nam.

Lon
 
Wincheste made the model 12 trench gun. Used in WWII, Korea and Viet Nam.

Lon
Yes they did but it wasn’t used in Rhodesia, at least not by the Rhodesia military so I didn’t mention it in the thread
 
Im glad we could reach an understanding and again I do appreciate your knowledge.

Are there BETTER combat shotguns than the Auto 5? Were they available THEN? Perhaps more to the point which guns were available to be IMPORTED. US guns were definitely NOT an option. Remember the guns had to be purchased with a END USER CERTIFICATE that said they werent going to Rhodesia. Id bet there were a few "Winks and Nods" may during the transactions but it had to appear above board. Perhaps thats part of the reason so few were acquired???

The Rhodesian Bush War was in the same Time Line as the ending of the US involvement in Viet Nam. Back then the modern fighting shotgun was just coming of age. Sure the 1897 and yes the Model 12 were combat proven BUT they were US guns and NOT available. Conversely The Brits (and for that matter the US), had been using the Auto 5 in combat since before the 50s AND it had proven itself in Malaya.

I think we are going to have to disagree about the worthiness of the Auto 5 for combat. Perhaps all the flaws you mention are correct, IDK; but I do know I have not found even one report of problems with them from soldiers. Ive heard bitiching about the FAL and G3 and MAG and a few pistols; but nothis about the Auto 5. Even with that, I have personally carried a STEn in "angry places". Would I have preferred a UZI or a MP5, sure but once I knew my STEn (MKII) and the mags worked well together I was OK with it. Admittedly the user list of Auto 5 police guns is small. Remember they werent used as a replacement for the FAL/G3; but only as a specialized tool. So, I have to believe that some reports or complaints would have surfaced.
Immediately after I posted my last, it occurred to me that given the context, A5 may have been the only option available during the Bush War. European shotgun production at that time was pretty much double barrel or the A5. Obviously, A5 wins by default. And yes, it immediately dawned on me, having lived and served during that time, that the US, still reeling from the Vietnam humiliation, would choose to opt out of being in any way associated with the Rhodesian conflict. American pump action exports would be a no go. So there's the answer to my query ... confirmed by you.

If pump actions had been available, there is no doubt in my mind that design would have been the choice for the Bush War. I can make my 870 work no matter what. Full of mud or thirty below, I can count on it as long as I can count on me to have the strength to make it work. My A5 is now my go to gun and I'm deadly with it. But it is NOT faultless. Not as finicky as many semiautomatics, but far from 100% reliable. My pump relies on ME to make it work. My A5 relies on a whole bunch of complicated parts, springs, brakes, and rings working together just right under just the right conditions. So why did I abandon my 870? I developed retina problems and needed to switch from fixed breach to a heavier auto with less felt recoil. But it took a lot of modification, as you can see from above, before my Magnum Twelve became a reasonably reliable gun for both field and range (I am a disciple of the "one gun" mantra).
 
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Again, for the shotguns actually available to Rhodesia, The Auto 5 was pretty much the ONLY option. More that that it was the ONLY shotgun they adopted for military service. The Striker and some other guns were Im sure, used by civilians, I also recall some break open model with maybe 5 or 6 barrels that was reminiscent of the 19th century Nock Volley gun, as well as Im sure others BUT the Belgian FN made Browning Auto 5 was THE shotgun that Rhodesia adopted.

As a combat shotgun (despite all we've heard here) it was and still is a good gun. At the time of the Bush War, it was the FASTEST shooting/cycling gun available. Yes TODAY there are newer faster better guns BUT those were NOT available then so they only cloud the discussion.

Ive used the term End User Certificate a couple times in this thread. For those NOT familiar, Wikipedia provides the following

An end-user certificate, or EUC, is a document used in international transfers, including sales and arms provided as aid, of weapons and ammunition to certify that the buyer is the final recipient of the materials and does not plan on transferring the materials to another. EUCs are required by many governments to restrict the movement of military materials to undesired destinations, such as non-state actors under an international or domestic embargo, governments with bad human rights records or states that are considered to be threats by the original supplier of the arms.

Further
There are several (potential) problems with EUCs as a means to prevent undesirable arms exports: EUCs can be forged or falsified. They can also be obtained from corrupt officials... Another (potential) problem is that an EUC does not guarantee that the arms recipient will actually live up to its promise not to transfer the weapons received....

At the time of the Rhodesian Bush war, both South Afrika and Portugal (Mozambique) were also facing similar enemies sponsored by the USSR and China, with Cuban troops on the ground as trainers. It was in the interest of both South Afrika and Portugal to aid (if quietly behind the scenes) Rhodesia. Portugal provided HK G3 rifles from their own inventory and South Afrika provided the FALs. Rhodesia had been a British Colony. Their military was formed in British traditions with local influences particular to southern Africa terrain and conditions. The shotguns all likely came by way of South Afrika but I wouldnt be surprised if a few slipped through Portuguese hands.

Sadly Rhodesia was abandoned by the world. Race was used as the excuse because race was the cancer of the 1970s. It didnt seem to matter that much (most, all) of the White population were "African" by birth and family lineage for generations of 200+ years. Yes the White minority held the majority of governmental power; but the Rhodesian military (and police) was both heavily Black and White and all RHODESIAN. The Rhodesian military was perhaps 80% Black. They werent forced to serve, there was no draft. Conversely the guerillas were attacking from Mozambique and Zambia with the support of both major Communist world powers... and the west looked away. It wasnt only nations that abandoned Rhodesia. The United Methodist Church launched a campaign against Rhodesia. Their campaign was based on ignorance with little to no actual onsite knowledge. Facts didnt seem to matter to an organization that claims to have God on their side. (BTW they were the same folks who pushed for gun control re- emphasis on handgun control in the US). It wasnt ONLY the Methodist, other denominations including Roman Catholics also launched campaigns of ignorance against Rhodesia and all White Africans. It didnt seen to matter that the Dutch first settled at Capetown in 1650. Imagine that, 300 years of families living and building and dying there; but somehow they werent African enough.

The two guerilla leaders Robert Mugabe and Joshua Nkomo each supposedly fighting for a democratic Rhodesia, were also at odds with each other. In the end when Mugabe ultimately "won", he had Nkomo killed to eliminate any threat. Rhodesia which had been the "Bread Basket" of Africa and provided more wheat to the continent than any other country, slumped into an economic crash.

Can anyone tell me which side WON the Bush war? Its just my opinion, but 40+ years later it looks like nobody won. Rhodesia now Zimbabwe is a failed state. They thwart international business investments with Stalinist taxing and mandatory requirements that citizens must own the majority share of any business. As their economy failed they printed over paper money with larger denominations until even that failed. Then they decided to use US currency as the foundation for their economy. That was interesting idea until the old bills shredded from age. When you visit Zimbabwe you will be asked to use your paper US dollars to add new bills. Dont be surprised if someone wants to sell you old Rhodesian bills as "a collectors item". They may be collectable, but they are as worthless as Confederate money.

Apologies for the rant. Its just that I remember Rhodesia. It wasnt perfect. It needed to change and was on a path to change, Maybe not fast enough, what change ever comes fast enough; but changes come slow when a nation is at war. Now back to your regularly scheduled topic
 
I've always enjoyed learning about the history of Rhodesia this has been great @EDELWEISS thank you for posting. Here's a pic I remembered from one of my books that shows some Rhodesian light infantry with at least two shotguns in the pic. They look like they could be A5s the one on the right certainly has a longer barrel.
john-van-zyl-1975-rli-3cdo-14-tp-joc-darwin.jpg
 
No need to apologize for ranting. I lived through those confusing times. Though on the other side of the planet, I was aware of the tragedy unfolding in Rhodesia. The world was a mess everywhere. Argentina, Angola, Afghanistan, etc, etc. Too much too fast. Ideology was destroying the world then. Today it's simple greed. Consumerism has replaced communism and capitalism.

I have shot clays with men who could put two rounds downrange much quicker with an 870 than I can with my A5 ... and much more accurately too. Slam fire Model 12 can be fired even faster. Back in the early 70s I was a US Army military policeman and our primary weapon was 1911 Colt. But we did have shotguns in the armory for the stockade guards and for payday guard duty. One payday the favorite of the duty officer blew a whole in the floor of the bank. He knew nothing about shotguns since that training was somehow overlooked at MP school. So it was decided everyone in the company would have to go to the range and learn how shotguns work. When it came time for my line to shoot, I stepped up to the armorer's table and spotted three old WWI Model 97 trench guns sitting against the wall. The rest of the guns were an odd collection of different model riot guns: Mossberg 500s, 870s, and Win 1200s. "Give me one of those old hammer jobs." At first the armorer refused. "Give me that one and tell everyone to watch when I step up to the firing line." Curiosity got the best of him and he handed it to me. When it came time for me to shoot and my line was given the order to fire, I just hung onto the trigger and pumped as fast as I could. No one else got off two shots before I finished five. The sound of chins hitting the dirt was deafening. I took it back to the armoerer and told him to lose some pieces from those 97s so they would be cycled out. Too dangerous. He agreed. It was hot that day and we were only in fatigue shirtsleeves. My shoulder was black and blue for a week. Man, that old turd kicked!
 
I've always enjoyed learning about the history of Rhodesia this has been great @EDELWEISS thank you for posting. Here's a pic I remembered from one of my books that shows some Rhodesian light infantry with at least two shotguns in the pic. They look like they could be A5s the one on the right certainly has a longer barrel.View attachment 610885
Thanks Brother, I try to scour for shotgun pics; but I had missed that one
 
The actions of the Rhodesian SAS and men like Darrell Watt were truly epic. If only the truth would have been told, that area would be a much different place today.

I am really enjoying the information here. Thanks for compiling it.
 
I have a few ex SS friends my understanding of the use of the shotgun on patrols was to get the heads down of the enemy while walking into a ambush while on patrol.
One of the formations used was called scorpion. Basically two guys leading one left one right some in line and then the scorpion tail. The stinger of the scorpion tail was always on the high ground left or right depending on terrain and was normally the machine gunner.
As soon as the ine or two guys on point hit contact they could spray quick fire 9 shots to get the enemy to duck for cover and give the patrol chance to get organized.

I will ask in more detail when we get together again and give some feedback.
 
The actions of the Rhodesian SAS and men like Darrell Watt were truly epic. If only the truth would have been told, that area would be a much different place today.

I am really enjoying the information here. Thanks for compiling it.
I dont think the world wanted to hear the truth. The truth is often difficult to hear, it can make you change all the things you based your life around....

From an anthropological standpoint, much of Afrika's "problems" were caused by lines on a map. Imagine you and your family and friends have lived together in the same place for as long as anyone can remember. Then along comes someone who says half of your family now lives on the other side of the line AND that other family (that you never got along with), now is on your side of the line. You dont like them and now you have to live with them every day. Picture modern gangs in LA or NY suddenly having to live with rival gangs in the "new" neighborhood.

By most accounts, most (many) Whites and Blacks largely co-existed well, more so for the families that live in more remote areas. It was a mutual respect and leave me the F alone concept. Also bear in mind that most of the Whites had lived in Africa for generations. Yes there was an accepted "We are White"; but there was also a "We are _________ this tribe", and "We" dont want anything to do with you (remember the lines on the map thing). Its only the WOKE world that says we are all the same. So largely dont bother me and I wont bother you.

As years passed and Rhodesia became more and more independent, governments formed and yes they were White dominated with limited access for Blacks. The Army somehow existed with White and Black troops. So did the BSAP and YES promotions and leadership positions were limited for Blacks; but that was changing albeit slowly; maybe too slowly; but it was changing. When Britain demanded immediate changes; the Rhodesians had enough and declared independence, with the UDI.

Rhodesians suddenly became pariahs to the world. Imagine that??? A nation that decided they didnt want Britain to tell them how to live??? When Rhodesia declared independence two factions of Blacks sought support ZANU and ZAPU were armed and indoctrinated by the USSR and Red China. Cuban troops provided training and leadership. They staged in Zambia and Mozambique (where they were also fighting Portuguese troops.

Back in the late 1940s we were told about the international conspiracy to spread communism around the world. We saw films of red ink being poured over the globe. History showed us Russian troops going into eastern block countries. We saw Asia falling to Communism. The Brits dealt with Malaysia and the French fought their own war in Indo China before the US sent support to VietNam beginning in the 50s. By the time Rhodesia declared its UDI the west was weary of fighting and beginning to reap its own cost for their "everyone is wonderful" ideologies.

Today Rhodesia is remembered a White racist country that was beaten by Blacks. No one chooses to recall that the Rhodesian Army was 80+% Black. No one wants to remember that ZANU and ZAPU slaughtered more Blacks than Whites. No one wants to remember that Mugabe killed is "friend" ally Joshua Nkomo so that he wouldnt be a threat AND because he was from (wait for it)..... a different tribe....
 

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I'm headed your way in January.

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