The Quality of American Firearms...

[Rob404]

Most of my rifles are early Sporters based on tried and true Mauser actions with calibers ranging from 22-250 to 7mm Remington and allmost everything in between,mixed in are cheap ass Savages, and and a few from Eastern Europe, and even one Weatherby and not one bad shooter in the bunch.I hunted Africa with 2 CZs, and when I go back a Zastava/Whitworth and a CZ will go with me.I think rifles and handguns are a matter of preference and you buy what you like. and what is available in your area and price range.None of my Rifles are closet Queens and they all get regular use at the range. It's great to discuss ones opinions on Firearms but I don't think you will sway anybodys opinion one way or the other,and having shot a lot of others rifles at the range I haven't shot anything that had me running to my favorite Gun Dealer to buy one.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Well, I guess that should put an end to this thread. These two wise ol' sages have imparted their wisdom on us, so there is nothing else to say... Thank you for taking the time to speak with us common folk...

My post wasn't addressed to anyone in particular, just a personal observation. My ol' man and his brothers are almost all long gone but they were wise old sages beyond their years. A depression and war in ones early years will do that to a person.

I wish all a good holiday and good hunting!

 

[Lomadelray]

Tradition
Influence from Marketing (Gun Writers, Hunting Shows (infomercials))
Technical Attributes
Cost...

Tradition:
If what you mean by this "is blind adherence to something that is no longer
effective" I disagree. If you mean a history of proven performance, then that's what I mean
by results; these guns have performed, and continue to perform, well enough for the
task they were designed for, namely killing game. So a personal or family history
of hunting success endears, as it should, these guns to their owners.

Influence from Marketing (Gun Writers, Hunting Shows (infomercials)):
If what you mean by this, is that "all the rubes have been duped by clever marketing"
I disagree, marketing may get you to buy something once, but if it fails in the field
you certainly wouldn't buy it again. Not to mention the fact that all
manufacturers have a marketing apparatus to promote their products; especially
in the internet age, the playing field has never been more level in terms of getting
your product noticed. People know about Steyr, and Blaser, and Sako, they are just
not dissatisfied enough with the performance from their domestic rifle to look for
another option.

Technical Attributes: Meaning they like the features of the gun and what the gun can do? Agreed!

Cost...I said price so...you know...we agree.

Additionally, all firearms manufacturers have had safety recalls, including Steyr, and for a trigger failure of all things! So don't hold that against them.

In the end, if you don't like "Remchesterby's" that's fine, I understand completely, but I just don't think it's that difficult to understand when hunters make a different choice than you. Nor should they be denigrated for making that choice. The hunting community is large enough to accommodate all sorts of variety.
vive la différence!

 

[shuter]

Well, I guess that should put an end to this thread. These two wise ol' sages have imparted their wisdom on us, so there is nothing else to say... Thank you for taking the time to speak with us common folk...

"Hey look...that kettle's black!"

 

[markferrigno]

Interesting thread, just stumbled on it (been offline for a few days) I think price is a big concern, hunting is far more common and accessible in America then in just about any other country. I am American currently living in Germany and am a huge fan of Heym rifles. I have been to the factory many times and every rifle is built by hand and tested. I have had several rifles built and they are accurate but like folks have said 99% of other rifles will do what I need it to do. Heym doesn't produce in huge numbers and are know for their DG doubles. But if you can get hands on an SR21, SR30 or 26B double rifle try them, you won't be disappointing.

Someone made a comment about CZ quality going down and I would concur.I bought a CZ550 in .300 winmag and I did not like it at all. It was near impossible to get off a quick 2nd shot, the bolt was clunky and difficult to operate smoothly.

Having said that I also have a Browning X-Bolt that shoots amazingly well and is one of my favorite and it didn't cost a fortune. It has been through all kinds of crap weather and never missed a beat. The bolt action is smooth as can be and the plastic magazine has operated perfectly.

 

[Heym 450/400]

Since I'm the new guy...Let me try not to step on too many toes...

You can make many different arguments about why an American factory gun is "good enough" or "does everything I need it to".... but make no mistake..they are not the same as a high end Euro gun. I can kill a deer with a $400 Remchester or a $250k Holland & Holland but that doesn't make them equal. One is built with the bare minimum in mind the other is finished with perfection.

Chose what you can afford or what you like...but there is no comparison.

Obviously I chose an extreme example....but after I was on my 4th or 5th Kimber I wondered what the hell I was wasting all that time and money on when I could just have one nice rifle that functioned and shot lights out right outta the box. I've decided..for me anyway.. that I would rather have a few high end guns than a safe full of American made gambles.

 

[JimP]

If it is because of higher end rifles then take a look at the Remington Custom shop, the Winchester Custom shop, the Weatherby Custom shop, or any of the others out there and you can have a custom built rifle for yourself that will rival any of the European gun manufactures.

 

[Longwalker]

The quality of American mass market firearms is "adequate" - but just barely so. I will not buy another Remington, Savage, Marlin, Mossberg, or several others, and I would have to think hard about buying a Winchester. Ruger has been an exception and although most Ruger rifles ( #1's are an inspiration!) are far from elegant, they do function well in my experience. I have owned many examples of each of the common American brands, and far too often found basic reliable function lacking. Remington has been really pathetic. I have never found a Sako, Heym, Anschutz, Tikka, Krieghoff, Zbrojovka Brno, Merkel, AyA, Blaser, or Beretta lacking in any way.

Americans seem to mostly like to buy the very very cheapest goods that they can make, and call it "value". Not being American, I have a different perspective. And making a cheap design pretty with custom shop embellishments doesn't do it for me either. But there are some very high quality and artistic American custom and semi custom gun makers who can compete with the best in the world. I would proudly own and shoot a rifle from one of the American small shop or custom makers, or even semi - customs like Dakota.

But I just don't understand the tendency of Americans to buy a cheap "commodity" rifle, then pay good money to replace trigger, stock, and maybe even the barrel and have the action " trued" and "smoothed" before they are satisfied with it. The small shop American and nearly all European manufacturers have already done all that for their customers, off the shelf.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

M70 is a cheap design? Hmm, I'm thinking you've not handled one since FN took over. Got several along with some Tikka's. Got one M70 that is having a bit of necessary work done to it, most of the others have had very little or in the case of my .375H&H Safari Express has had none and likely never will.

 

[Hogpatrol]

The quality of American mass market firearms is "adequate" - but just barely so. I will not buy another Remington, Savage, Marlin, Mossberg, or several others, and I would have to think hard about buying a Winchester. Ruger has been an exception and although most Ruger rifles ( #1's are an inspiration!) are far from elegant, they do function well in my experience. I have owned many examples of each of the common American brands, and far too often found basic reliable function lacking. Remington has been really pathetic. I have never found a Sako, Heym, Anschutz, Tikka, Krieghoff, Zbrojovka Brno, Merkel, AyA, Blaser, or Beretta lacking in any way.

Americans seem to mostly like to buy the very very cheapest goods that they can make, and call it "value". Not being American, I have a different perspective. And making a cheap design pretty with custom shop embellishments doesn't do it for me either. But there are some very high quality and artistic American custom and semi custom gun makers who can compete with the best in the world. I would proudly own and shoot a rifle from one of the American small shop or custom makers, or even semi - customs like Dakota.

But I just don't understand the tendency of Americans to buy a cheap "commodity" rifle, then pay good money to replace trigger, stock, and maybe even the barrel and have the action " trued" and "smoothed" before they are satisfied with it. The small shop American and nearly all European manufacturers have already done all that for their customers, off the shelf.

Longwalker, I would surmise your average American hunter doesn't have the financial wherewithal to purchase a Kreighof, Anschutz, or Blaser, etc. Read my earlier post about the WW2 guys and what they used to hunt with after the war. With all due respect, I must disagree with your characterization of American rifles as "cheap designs". Many of the custom actions made in the U.S. companies such as Pierce, Stiller, Kelbly, Borden, Montana, etc. are Remington or Winchester design clones, hardly cheap and proven over many years of hunting and competition. On the "truing" and changing parts, this is done as a way to save some money and at the same time have a semi-custom action for a custom build. A company such as Cabela's, Walmart, etc. buys rifles in the thousands. Therefore they can sell an entire rifle for less than what it cost one person to buy an action directly from a vendor. I've bought more than a few, done the truing myself and built very accurate rifles with them. At any rate, rifle name, components, cost, quality, reputation and heritage mean nothing in the field if the shooter is not capable of putting the shot where it needs to go.

 

[gizmo]

Ok so I've watched this post for a while now. I admittedly know little about Styer rifles but after reading these posts I went to their website and gave them a look over and read all their marketing material. In the end I wasn't overly impressed with anything they offered and honestly they look to me like any other mid grade rifle out there. I have a CZ which I dearly love but I have dozens of American rifles from all different American manufacturers as well. I garauntee the Styer doesnt shoot any better than any of my American rifles be it a Remington, Winchester, Ruger, or Savage. All are capable of out of the box accuracy like the target posted and I've done it with my rifles. Rifles are a preference thing and whatever floats your boat. To say that all American rifles are junk is ridiculous. Let's not forget America is back to back world war champs and American rifles led the way.

 

[Heym 450/400]

We are in fact back to back world war champs........but..

our WW1 rifle design was stolen from a german and the WW2 rifle was designed by a Canadian

 

[gizmo]

We are in fact back to back world war champs........but..

our WW1 rifle design was stolen from a german and the WW2 rifle was designed by a Canadian

I'll give you that but at the end of the day the vast majority were made in the good ol US of A. The post is about quality not who had the first design idea. British high end bolt guns are from German designs too but it doesn't make them German. This is a similar thread to one a year or two ago bashing American firearms. It's rediculous to say all American guns are junk just like saying all x-guns are the best. I think think the Op'er is just trying to sell Styers or the idea of them. I'm glad he likes them but from what I've seen they aren't any different than any other gun in the same price ranges.

 

[Longwalker]

Gizmo, you seem insulted. That was not my intention. I believe I was clear in my statement that there are very good quality American firearms on the market. And that those are not the mass market goods that attract the criticism. But many recent firearm designs ( including some others from all over the world) are cheap, mass produced and made to compete primarily on price. The American manufacturers are simply the world leaders in this trend, just as they are the leaders in many other things that America can take more pride in.
Unlike those who are justifiably proud citizens of the "good ol US of A" I don't have loyalty to any country when it comes to firearms manufacturers. But I have experienced first hand many, many times the American firearms industry habit of shipping everything quickly out the door, and deal with quality problems later through warranty and factory fixes. I constantly read about the satisfaction so many American shooters have when Remington/Savage/Winchester/etc. fixes a problem on warranty that should never have left the factory. But I do not live in the USA, and sending a rifle back to the factory is a huge logistical and economic problem from where I live. So, I buy on the basis of my experience, and the manufacturers reputation, and on predictable quality. My gun room is heavily weighted toward European firearms for that reason. It's not personal, it's just business.

 

[gizmo]

Gizmo, you seem insulted. That was not my intention. I believe I was clear in my statement that there are very good quality American firearms on the market. And that those are not the mass market goods that attract the criticism. But many recent firearm designs ( including some others from all over the world) are cheap, mass produced and made to compete primarily on price. The American manufacturers are simply the world leaders in this trend, just as they are the leaders in many other things that America can take more pride in.
Unlike those who are justifiably proud citizens of the "good ol US of A" I don't have loyalty to any country when it comes to firearms manufacturers. But I have experienced first hand many, many times the American firearms industry habit of shipping everything quickly out the door, and deal with quality problems later through warranty and factory fixes. I constantly read about the satisfaction so many American shooters have when Remington/Savage/Winchester/etc. fixes a problem on warranty that should never have left the factory. But I do not live in the USA, and sending a rifle back to the factory is a huge logistical and economic problem from where I live. So, I buy on the basis of my experience, and the manufacturers reputation, and on predictable quality. My gun room is heavily weighted toward European firearms for that reason. It's not personal, it's just business.

No worries I'm not insulted nor upset, just stating an opinion. I feel the Styer is no different than the Ruger, Remington, Winchester, Savage rifles of the same price ranges in each respective category. There is nothing new or super innovative about them. On the website one of their models have the cheapest looking intagraded bipod I've ever seen and I chuckled as I watched the video hype it up. It's two pieces of plastic on a pivot that look like it will break the first time you use it. Styers are basically the same rifle that every rifle manufacture in the universe makes. Styers are not custom and are mass produced like the rest from what their website shows.

 

[Heym 450/400]

Something you might want to consider is the barrel...no American manufacture can consistently make the same quality of barrels as the German/Austrian makers..which IMO is why they typically shoot better out of the box. Ive taken a few tours of European gun makers and came away impressed with their attention to detail on the manufacturing/assembly side of their guns. Think of them as more of a semi-custom maker on a production rifle scale.

Imo it took FN to come in and implement their Euro gun philosophy to save Winchester and produce them in their factories.

 

[lcq]

The quality of American mass market firearms is "adequate" - but just barely so. I will not buy another Remington, Savage, Marlin, Mossberg, or several others, and I would have to think hard about buying a Winchester. Ruger has been an exception and although most Ruger rifles ( #1's are an inspiration!) are far from elegant, they do function well in my experience. I have owned many examples of each of the common American brands, and far too often found basic reliable function lacking. Remington has been really pathetic. I have never found a Sako, Heym, Anschutz, Tikka, Krieghoff, Zbrojovka Brno, Merkel, AyA, Blaser, or Beretta lacking in any way.

Americans seem to mostly like to buy the very very cheapest goods that they can make, and call it "value". Not being American, I have a different perspective. And making a cheap design pretty with custom shop embellishments doesn't do it for me either. But there are some very high quality and artistic American custom and semi custom gun makers who can compete with the best in the world. I would proudly own and shoot a rifle from one of the American small shop or custom makers, or even semi - customs like Dakota.

But I just don't understand the tendency of Americans to buy a cheap "commodity" rifle, then pay good money to replace trigger, stock, and maybe even the barrel and have the action " trued" and "smoothed" before they are satisfied with it. The small shop American and nearly all European manufacturers have already done all that for their customers, off the shelf.

Funny but Barely adequate must mean something entirely different to you than it does to most of us. My Savages have been dog reliable and I would wager more accurate out of the box than many of your fancy European guns. You may not like the accutrigger but it breaks clean without grit or creep and is safe even adjusted to 1 1/2 lb. I can't complain about the accuracy, reliability or triggers on my Remington 700 and 783 either and I bet the 783 cost me less than a couple of magazines for a fancy gun.

Americans, like us Canadians use the term "value for money". I frankly do the same for cars, electronics and anything else I buy. If it is reliable and does the job it was intended to spending more money for a name just makes no sense to most of us, we'll just put the cash saved towards the next hunt.

my $0.02

 

[CDorroh]

I don't currently own a Steyr or any other "high end" imports. My safe is full of Remchesterby's, Savages, and Marlins. I like the action on my Weatherby Mark V better than my friend's Steyr. I find it to be slightly smoother, I like the shorter bolt handle lift (54 degrees vs 90, both push feed), and I'm not a fan of detachable magazines on a hunting rifle - that's just something else to misplace or forget. Those are all just my preferences, though.


Many of my rifles are capable of shooting sub MOA... with some work. Every now and then, you get one that will do it with the first thing you feed it, but that hasn't been the norm in my experience. It takes some trial/error and load development to get there. From my observations, it seems like it typically takes less effort to get there with a rifle like a Steyr. But the same could also be said for a custom rifle built in the USA for a similar price. It's not where it is built, but the attention to detail and the quality of the components used.

 

[JimP]

Something you might want to consider is the barrel...no American manufacture can consistently make the same quality of barrels as the German/Austrian makers..which IMO is why they typically shoot better out of the box. Ive taken a few tours of European gun makers and came away impressed with their attention to detail on the manufacturing/assembly side of their guns. Think of them as more of a semi-custom maker on a production rifle scale.

Imo it took FN to come in and implement their Euro gun philosophy to save Winchester and produce them in their factories.

I don't know about the quality of the barrels and accuracy right out of the box statement.

The last couple of American made rifles that I have purchased have shot very well and with factory ammo. My last rifle a .25-06 had a nice 1/2" clover leaf for its first three shots that I fired. I also did the same with a Ruger #1 which according to all the hype is not suppose to be a moa rifle. Savage 110's are the same way.

 

[Desert Dog]

The most telling posts in this long thread were the revelations about what some of the most famous and successful hunters use, and what most professional hunters use worldwide; the vast majority using off the shelf firearms.

I have only hunted 3 continents, so lack the experience of many on this forum, but have never had a guide in my life that carried a high-dollar custom gun. I have seen countless model 70s, Rugers, Montanas, Sakos, and even a CZ or two, but I have NEVER seen a Heym or Kreighof in the hands of a PH or his staff.

This Thread made me realize the fact that when I go hunting abroad (or Alaska), I always take the same guns, usually Winchester M70s. The confounding part is that I DO OWN many expensive custom built rifles, but seem to take those lowly model 70s or Rugers with me when I know they will probably get abused.

So maybe it is more than just owning a rifle that gives good quality at a good price point. Perhaps it has a great deal to do with carrying a rifle that you DON'T MIND abusing. Perhaps the fact that Mexican authorities could confiscate my custom $6000 hunting rifle on a whim scares me. Perhaps I just can't stomach the thought of coastal bear hunting in Alaska with my beautiful custom Mauser. Those model 70s have been in the deserts, saltwater coasts, mountains, swamps, rainstorms, snow storms, dropped, and mishandled countless times - and they still work great. Perhaps these "lowly rifles" are just tools, and treated as such.

Would you use a gold inlaid custom engraved hammer, hand forged by skilled craftsman deep in the forests of Bavaria? Or would you go to Home Depot and buy a Stanley when your fence needs mending?