The Quality of American Firearms...

[WAB]

Uglier than a pig turd? The most accurate rifle in my safe is a savage 112V single shot bolt in .22-250. I bought it in the 70’s, have put tens of thousands of rounds through it, and it still punches one hole groups at 100. Not the prettiest gun in the safe but there’s a reason I’ve held on to it for 40+ years!

 

[MS 9x56]

If you want the best quality American guns you have to go back at least 50 years. If you want the most accurate, buy from the new budget rifles from just about any manufacturer. I hate plastic stocks but love the accuracy of the platforms. Triggers are .mostly light years ahead of vintage guns but the fit, finish and quality is the worst I have seen in my 50 years of using firearms. Lately my focus has been on 100 year old rifles, restoring them and mostly reloading for them and getting them back into the woods doing what they were built for. Just one mans opinion.

 

[sgt_zim]

Uglier than a pig turd? The most accurate rifle in my safe is a savage 112V single shot bolt in .22-250. I bought it in the 70’s, have put tens of thousands of rounds through it, and it still punches one hole groups at 100. Not the prettiest gun in the safe but there’s a reason I’ve held on to it for 40+ years!

That's a tossup between my Savage 10 and T3X in 6.5x55

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

The Carcano is a revamped Mannlicher-Schonauer, I don't hear many canning them. Yes I do agree the build quality of the Italian job was lacking however as a battle rifle and that is what it is, it was reliable and it worked. Not my first choice for a battle action battle rifle. Unlike very late WW2 model K98's or Arisaka's their metallurgy was not suspect.

Actually, the Carcano is not a Mannlicher Schoenauer, "revamped" or otherwise.

The Carcano is an Italian made arm that feeds from an en bloc 'clip' (the Mannlicher Packet Loading System). It was designed in 1890 by Salvatore Carcano as the Modello 1891 and entered production in 1892 whereas the MS was introduced at the 1900 Paris World's Fair. Carcano had been greatly influenced by the 'Commission' 1888 that was the common ancestor of both Mannlicher Schoenauer and Mauser 98.

The 'Greek' Y1903 is a Mannlicher Schoenauer as it incorporates Otto Schoenauer's rotary magazine.

A firearm without the Schoenauer rotary magazine cannot be a Mannlicher Schoenauer, and all genuine MS, military and civilian, were produced at Steyr, Austria (though the Y1903/27 were allegedly assembled in Italy).

Carcano:

Oswald's rifle - not a Mannlicher

Carcano En Bloc

Schoenauer magazine

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

The only European rifle I own is my 1905 Mannlicher Schoenauer which I still believe is the finest firearm ever produced.

My M1910 Take Down Model disagrees .

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

"The Carcano's history has been plagued by a great deal of negative press and criticism, mainly the result of misinformation and lack of understanding of design.

HWL

As we say in the U.S. - Bingo.

 

[Rule 303]

Actually, the Carcano is not a Mannlicher Schoenauer, "revamped" or otherwise.

The Carcano is an Italian made arm that feeds from an en bloc 'clip' (the Mannlicher Packet Loading System). It was designed in 1890 by Salvatore Carcano as the Modello 1891 and entered production in 1892 whereas the MS was introduced at the 1900 Paris World's Fair. Carcano had been greatly influenced by the 'Commission' 1888 that was the common ancestor of both Mannlicher Schoenauer and Mauser 98.

The 'Greek' Y1903 is a Mannlicher Schoenauer as it incorporates Otto Schoenauer's rotary magazine.

A firearm without the Schoenauer rotary magazine cannot be a Mannlicher Schoenauer, and all genuine MS, military and civilian, were produced at Steyr, Austria (though the Y1903/27 were allegedly assembled in Italy).

Carcano:

View attachment 381807
Oswald's rifle - not a Mannlicher

View attachment 381809
Carcano En Bloc

View attachment 381810
Schoenauer magazineView attachment 381811

Thanks for this. I can see where I got my wires crossed.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Thanks for this. I can see where I got my wires cross

No problem... glad to help.

The C&Rsenal videos are excellent and very detailed with history of the firearms themselves as well as political and economic factors that brought them into existence.

Here is one about the Mannlicher Schoenauer:

I believe the publicity surrounding the JFK assassination and its aftermath has much to do with confusion regarding the Carcano M91 and its variants. Some of the initial reports involving the incident(s) identified Oswald's mail order surplus rifle as a "Mannlicher Carcano", the error having been repeated since.

That, combined with general unfamiliarity of the Carcano outside of Italian veterans and military arms collectors, has perpetuated the notion that the Carcano is a 'sister' to the Mannlicher Schoenauer when it is but a distant cousin with shared lineage.

The Carcano does have a bolt which closes in front of the rear receiver ring of a 'split bridge' receiver, but so did the M1888 'Commission rifle' on which Carcano based his design. Its overall appearance also closely resembles Mannlicher military designs that predate the MS and were concurrent with the M91.

To confuse matters, it could be said that a Carcano may be properly referred to as a 'Mannlicher' due to its use of the Mannlicher Packet Loading System (en bloc), but, if so, that would also be true of the M1 Garand (though the Garand ejects used 'clips' upward, rather than dropping them thran open floorplate).

 

[OxfordTheCat]

Adding to that fun, there are a considerable number of factory sporterized Carcanos in 6.5x54MS here in Canada, available in various states of condition and typically with the double set triggers that are so frequently associated with the MS rifles.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Common ancestor of Carcano, Mauser 98, Mannlicher Schoenauer, and several others:

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

MS 9x56 said:
The only European rifle I own is my 1905 Mannlicher Schoenauer which I still believe is the finest firearm ever produced.

My M1910 Take Down Model disagrees .

Do let me explain;
Your M1905 comes from the finest of families, to be sure, it's just that my 1910 TD has a bit of a superiority complex.

 

[HWL]

Adding to that fun, there are a considerable number of factory sporterized Carcanos in 6.5x54MS here in Canada, available in various states of condition and typically with the double set triggers that are so frequently associated with the MS rifles.

View attachment 381944

Another one...

....from the cold dead hands of a German forester.

His one and only rifle from the mid 50's to 90's.

Converted from 6,5x52 Carcano to 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, because this ammunition was available in the 50's.

Single shot with trap door magazine, double set trigger and Zeiss 6x42 Diatal-Z T* on claw mount.

Still holds a 1,5" 5 shot group at 100 m with Hornady 160 gr .267 dia. SPRN.

7,5 lbs/3,4kg, 38"/97cm oal..


HWL

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Hickok45 did a video on the Carcano, or as it's often referred to as, "The Lee Harvey Oswald rifle"

 

[Hogpatrol]

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

View attachment 382025

Would it help to mention that both Carcano and Mannlicher Schoenauer are 'controlled round feed'?

 

[Ray B]

Would it help to mention that both Carcano and Mannlicher Schoenauer are 'controlled round feed'?

You could also mention that I consider the Mannlicher 1903 (and possibly other models) ejector to be the best of those that I have seen. the ejector acts like a fixed blade such as found on Mauser 98, Win 70s but instead of a slot that provides a spot of unsupport, the ejector is moveable, so it is solid in the support of the case, but on rearward movement of the bolt, the ejector is stopped by the fixed position on the receiver, causing the ejector to stop, while the bolt continues back, thus acting like the fixed blade ejectors while not weakening the action. Why others have not incorporated the feature in other rifles is confusing except that it would mean spending more money on production and thus increasing the price of the rifle, which the bean-counters strongly object.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Why others have not incorporated the feature in other rifles is confusing except that it would mean spending more money on production and thus increasing the price of the rifle, which the bean-counters strongly object.

Such expense in manufacture is what killed the Mannlicher Schoenauer. Considerations of expense have caused others to 'cheapen' their designs over the decades, as mentioned in several posts on this thread.

There. Now we're relevant to the OP.