The Quality of American Firearms...

[Heym 450/400]

consider yourself blessed... I typically go through 4-5 American rifles before I find one that will function and shoot. I might get a shooter that doesn't feed or a rifle that functions smoothly but holds a 3" group.

I found Euro guns to be just the opposite...I can buy 5-6 before coming across one with an issue.

I had two different Kimbers that were sent back to the factory twice each...new barrels each time, plus firing pin,one go a whole new bolt...one a new stock. And the other 2-3 kimbers I bought I didn't even bother sending them in anymore. I've had good luck with Remington and Savage.....not as good as Euro guns but usable. I would not hesitate to buy a Savage.. I've never had one not shoot lights out....... but damn are they ugly!

 

[Longwalker]

Accuracy has been used as the main measure of quality by many on this thread. Only one or two of my American rifles were not adequately accurate. I choose to look at other factors besides accuracy before I decide if a rifle is of adequate quality. Following is a list of problems I have experienced with mass market American firearms purchased new, in no particular order:
Rem 700 - rough gritty trigger, Rem 700 - sticky bolt stop that allowed bolt to drop out, Rem 700 - mis-aligned screw holes for scope bases, Rem 700 - warped stock, Rem 700 - misfeeds from the magazine, Rem 700 - iron sights cocked to one side, Win 70 - thermoplastic bedding blob cracked and loose, Win 94 - shot so far to one side iron sights almost fell out of slot when adjusted to hit point of aim, Marlin 1895 - sights cocked to one side and a rough, heavy trigger pull, Savage 110 - warped stock, Savage 110 - excessive headspace, Savage 24 - two guns with barrels so far out of alignment that the shotgun would completely miss a target at 40 yds if the rifle sights were used to aim the shotgun, Savage 99 - badly fitted stock and rough bore, Remington 597 - failure to feed / fire about once for every magazine full of ammo, ... and quite a few others. Never had a serous problem with 6 or 8 Rugers. Never had a functional problem with a Browning, but they are actually Belgian or Japanese anyway.

In comparison, of the two dozen or so European rifles and guns that I own, the only concern that comes to mind is the new Sako 85 that ejects shells in too high an arc and they touch the scope turret on their way out. That's it.

About 50% of the American guns that I have owned have had obvious flaws, vs. close to zero for the Europeans. Just my experience. And hence my preferences.

 

[Big5]

. . . Those model 70s have been in the deserts, saltwater coasts, mountains, swamps, rainstorms, snow storms, dropped, and mishandled countless times - and they still work great. Perhaps these "lowly rifles" are just tools, and treated as such.

+1

 

[gizmo]

Accuracy has been used as the main measure of quality by many on this thread. Only one or two of my American rifles were not adequately accurate. I choose to look at other factors besides accuracy before I decide if a rifle is of adequate quality. Following is a list of problems I have experienced with mass market American firearms purchased new, in no particular order:
Rem 700 - rough gritty trigger, Rem 700 - sticky bolt stop that allowed bolt to drop out, Rem 700 - mis-aligned screw holes for scope bases, Rem 700 - warped stock, Rem 700 - misfeeds from the magazine, Rem 700 - iron sights cocked to one side, Win 70 - thermoplastic bedding blob cracked and loose, Win 94 - shot so far to one side iron sights almost fell out of slot when adjusted to hit point of aim, Marlin 1895 - sights cocked to one side and a rough, heavy trigger pull, Savage 110 - warped stock, Savage 110 - excessive headspace, Savage 24 - two guns with barrels so far out of alignment that the shotgun would completely miss a target at 40 yds if the rifle sights were used to aim the shotgun, Savage 99 - badly fitted stock and rough bore, Remington 597 - failure to feed / fire about once for every magazine full of ammo, ... and quite a few others. Never had a serous problem with 6 or 8 Rugers. Never had a functional problem with a Browning, but they are actually Belgian or Japanese anyway.

In comparison, of the two dozen or so European rifles and guns that I own, the only concern that comes to mind is the new Sako 85 that ejects shells in too high an arc and they touch the scope turret on their way out. That's it.

About 50% of the American guns that I have owned have had obvious flaws, vs. close to zero for the Europeans. Just my experience. And hence my preferences.

Well I can tell you all my American rifles get the piss beat out of them daily, by the nature of being an outfitter the spend more days in the field than I would say most as does any outfitters guns. West Texas is incredibly tough on equipment period. If you don't believe it come hunt here. It can be 80 one day. -5 the next and 50 with a downpour the next. Dirt and dust blows constantly everyday as the wind stays at a comfortable 20 mph breeze daily and 6 months a year for weeks it can it blows 30 to 50 sustained. Humidities range from 10% to 90% depending on the weather and time of year. My rifles are borrowed by clients, some of which are kids, and shoot at least 1000 rounds a year min. They get cleaned when I get around to it as I don't have time most often. They are banged around, dropped, ride on the seat of pickups for months at a time and none of my hunting rifles are safe queens. All are American too. If that isn't quality and reliability I don't know what is. I will never claim to be an expert on anything but I do know a little bit about my rifles and the abuse they take year in and out. Yet despite all this I have NEVER had one problem from any of them. And, I can pick one of them up and clover leaf a target and day of the week.

 

[Spooksar]

All firearm companies have lemons, I've seen a Sako 85 that had a loose barrel, Tikas with bedding problems, I've also seen Rugers that just would not shoot, Savage with poor bedding, Remington with bedding issues. The point is I own rifles in all theses makes, one bad apple will not make me shy away from those makes.

 

[JimP]

After we have compared the accuracy, looks, function and the rest of the good stuff of American rifles vrs their European counterparts how about cost of one to the other?

Most American built rifles can be had for $1000 or less how about the European ones that you are comparing a $1000 US built rifle to? What do the European ones cost?

 

[lcq]

After we have compared the accuracy, looks, function and the rest of the good stuff of American rifles vrs their European counterparts how about cost of one to the other?

Most American built rifles can be had for $1000 or less how about the European ones that you are comparing a $1000 US built rifle to? What do the European ones cost?

and are they any more reliable or accurate. my guess is no so why spend money best used for another African hunt

 

[Dwight Beagle]

I've never been to Africa but still have hopes. Took an early retirement package and started working the gun counter part time a year and a half ago. The store I work at is one of only three flagship stores in the company, all the others are 1/2 to 1/4 the size of the one where I work. We move a bunch of firearms and optics.

The vast majority of our customers have never heard of CZ. I don't own as many rifles as most of you probably do, 14 to be exact. Of those my favorites are CZ's, two 550 Americans and a 512. It's a shame they quit making the 550 American.

I also have a Sears J. C. Higgins .270 which was built on a FN Commercial Mauser action and a sporterized 1903A3 which are very dear to me. Still have the first rifle I ever bought, a 700 ADL .270, purchased in 1972 with calf money when I was 13. Something about the above mentioned rifles appeals to me more than the budget rifles you see today.

I do have a couple of Vanguards that I like quite a bit, and my next rifle will be a M70 .264 WM. I think the latest iteration of the M70 to be equal to or better than the pre-64's.

Most of the people I wait on do not have a clue as to what makes a good firearm or not. They either want the least expensive firearm they can get or want a particular rifle because that is what their best friend(the rifle guru) told them to get. Most of these people will sight their rifle in and then fire it once or twice a year. For their purpose a RAR or Axis is fine.

The ignorance lies on my side of the counter too. Most of the people I work with don't have a clue about things such as twist rate of that a 30-30, .308, 30-06 and 300 WM shoot the same caliber bullet.

As a rule I prefer European rifles and older US made rifles to all others. One of the things I hate the most about budget rifles is that the ejection/loading port is so small it is difficult to single load a cartridge or clear a jam. To each his own. I'd rather own one $1,000.00 than three $350.00 rifles.

 

[sierraone]

Dwight Beagle, I agree with you 99%. My first gun at 14 was a J.C. Higgins 12 ga. pump. It has taken every animal you could legally hunt in Arkansas when I was a teenager, including 2 white tails with #1 buck. On the new model Winchesters, same here I believe they are every bit as good as the pre-64s, and the finish is better in most cases. Most younger people now, only want to shoot ARs, (speaking from experience working as a ranger safety officer for a short time). The majority don't hunt and are not interested in it. Lands and grooves and rates of twist and bullet weight are pure Greek.

 

[siutis]

Unfortunately, the quality of American firearms is very poor. That's why customers maker's are so backlogged.

 

[Dr Ray]

I like American rifles and have three currently.
I’m likely to acquire another 3 too.
I like Sako but I’m the bigger calibers there appears to be a problem when ejecting fires cases hitting the low mounted scope.
I think that some if the various cheaper lines are, in fact, extremely good value for money.
It’s only this week I recommended a Remington 783.
Personally I like the fit of American stocks (some more than others) I might add.
My next big caliber (416 RM) is likely to be the Winchester safari model.

 

[gizmo]

Here’s the thing, it doesn’t what product you are buying. Rifles, cars, couches, or food for that matter; if you go for the cheapest product in any given category your going to get poor results. On the inverse of that you don’t have to buy the most expensive of anything to get satisfactory results.
Cheap rifles are no different. If you buy a $300 Rifle it’s likely to be a piece of crap but all American rifle manufacturers mid range rifle in the 800-1600 range are typically very good and will do everything any of the European rifles that cost twice as much in many instances will do.

 

[rookhawk]

I didn't read the entire thread (although there were many,many good posts) but I'll address the original post by saying the following:

Steyr Mannlicher's are wonderful guns. They are relatively cheap too, the .270 models come about with some frequency for about $1700 at retail. (used) The issue with them is that they require Recknagel or EAW mounts proprietary to that action type. There are a handful of people in America that can mount scopes for that family of guns. (NECG, G&H, and JJ. Peridoux are the only names I can come up with) It's a pretty specialized talent to do claw mounts and to source the parts.

The Steyr Mannlicher is no different than the single square bridge and kurz mauser fan-club people. Awesome guns...but they cost a lot and require some really expensive and sophisticated mounting arrangements for sights/scopes that takes them into best-gunsmith maintained works if you can understand what I'm saying.

The finest American gun ever made (IMO) that you can actually run on down to the walmart/cabelas and get sights and mounts for any day is the pre-64 model 70. The quality was very high and the standardization for accessory compatibility was consistent and the numbers made justified a major industry providing aftermarket products for the platform. This will never be the case for Blasers or Steyrs or any of the "super premium" unique action guns that exist.

I'm reminded of the poem "and I took the road less traveled and it made all the difference". I'd take the same roads as the OP and those that shared his sentiments but the inside-the-bell-curve market never will.

 

[markferrigno]

For American rifles I like Savage and the Browning X-Bolt.I thin the X-Bolts area tremendous value. I have a Stainless Steel Stalker that any factory ammo accurately.The gun is def. more accurate than me. I have two rim fire Savages, sticky, tough to cycle bolts but both shoot accurately and were inexpensive.

I have several European Rifles, mostly Heyms and two very, very accurate and well made. Two, in 6.5x55 one of which I can't get to shoot straight. Groups that look like a drunk was shooting it. I guess every company cranks out a lemon or two..........

 

[wesheltonj]

Someone had a video that they posted with just about every American (including Browning) with the gun barrels exploding, while the European (excluding Browning) ones stayed in tact. I will stick with European makers. That's not to say European Makers are trouble free, lots of talk about exploding R93's.

 

[markferrigno]

The Browning X-Bolts are made by Howa in Japan, if that makes a difference to you.

 

[Dwight Beagle]

The Browning X-Bolts are made by Howa in Japan, if that makes a difference to you.

Brownings website states they are made by Miroku.

 

[Dwight Beagle]

Unfortunately, the quality of American firearms is very poor. That's why customers maker's are so backlogged.

I’m not buying that statement.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Someone had a video that they posted with just about every American (including Browning) with the gun barrels exploding, while the European (excluding Browning) ones stayed in tact. I will stick with European makers. That's not to say European Makers are trouble free, lots of talk about exploding R93's.

Are you suggesting that with safely loaded ammunition that I should one day expect that my American made rifle barrels on any of the several rifles I own to explode?

I'm quite certain I could make any rifle barrel explode no matter where it was made. No disrespect intended, and it's a bit hasty to conclude without having seen the video, but I'm call crap on it. It's one thing to embellish things to try and get people to buy your product, its a whole different game to fear monger that your American made rifle is going to kill you with an exploding barrel.

 

[Graham Hunter]

The Browning X-Bolts are made by Howa in Japan, if that makes a difference to you.

X Bolts are built by Miruku