The Quality of American Firearms...

[FairChase]

... Many (most) do not keep the rifle on the shoulder while operating the bolt simply because, in most cases, it is not necessary... But, when taking a typical shot, there's really no reason to keep the rifle on the shoulder...

Of course you wouldn't keep it on your shoulder unless a follow-up shot was necessary and in that case, in order to eliminate the need to re-acquire your target, you would. Dropping the rifle from your shoulder to recycle the bolt requires the shooter to re-acquire the target, therefore adding time to the ability to shoot again. Many times, enough time for the game to get away.

Not sure what you mean by "a typical shot".

 

[Wheels]

I want to spend my money hunting and so I don't spend it on high end equipment. I know guys who have the very best but can't afford to hunt as much as I do.

+1

We have all heard the saying, "Buy the best optics you can afford". Where I live, I can only hunt 1/2 hour before sunrise to 1/2 hour post sunset. My mid to high end Leupold and Vortex optics will allow me see prior to and after legal light. Current model prices would all fall into the $400-$1,200 category.

Is it worthwhile for me to pay $3,000+ for Teutonic glass even if I can afford it? (No offense Foxi.)

I have never bought an off the shelf rifle that didn't shoot < 2 MOA. (Most are significantly better) That's a dead animal at the distances that most of us shoot.


Taking it one step further, on my/our last two hunts we have used camp rifles.

1. Musgrave 30-06 with Leica 3x10

2. Musgrave 7x57 with Linx 4x12 and CZ 550 375 with Leupold 1x4


I'm considering leaving the rifles at home on most hunts in the future. Sure makes traveling through countries easier/cheaper.

Sorry for the hijack

 

[Pondoro]

My experience is that quality was higher before....look at early Mannlicher-Schoenauers, pre-64 M70 supergrades etc.

I have a 6,5x54MS Mannlicher-Sch. built by Charles Lancaster in 1906...the action is unbelievably slick...

You get what you pay for...but that does not mean that for instance Remingtons are bad rifles, they sure work..

Some are genuine gun nuts (as me..).....to others the rifle is nothing but a tool to kill that animal with..

 

[FairChase]

Wheels; Thanx for your perspective... always appreciated.

 

[AB2506]

I like Kimber.

 

[cpr0312]

I have a few Remingtons and all shoot great, never any problems. I am now "splurging" for a .375 and getting a Kimber. For all around North American hunting, and even hunting in Africa for plains game, a Remington is just fine for me. Like a few other comments on here, many people cant afford a custom rifle, or would rather choose to hunt more animals on a certain hunt than purchase a more expensive rifle.

 

[Bullthrower338]

I prefer blonds, but I got a red head that fits me pretty good now, I've sent blonds, brunettes and redheads all back due to Factory issues. Same with rifles.
Cheers,
Cody

 

[Bruce]

I have owned and hunted with a 700 ADL 30-06 Remington for 17 years now... NEVER had an accuracy problem with factory loads and I know that when I aim, the target will be hit plumb!
My ONLY issue is that the feed system does not like ALL ammo... there is a particular brand of 180gr factory ammo that continually jams when feeding... obviously I do NOT buy that Brand and use specific rounds that I know will feed every time.
Hunting once in the Eastern Cape, the PH on this particular game farm, looked very warily at my Remington and asked if I did not have another rifle to hunt kudu with etc... slightly pissed off I retaliated with all the normal bull S and proceeded to down 2 x kudu on that same day, all one shot kills and one at 220m.
Back in camp later, I asked him what his gripe was with the Remington etc... he plainly expressed concern that MOST Remington's that he had owned or come across had feed issues and that on DG he would NOT hunt with a Client who had a Remington 416 in particular.
I sell Remingtons in my gun shop and NO come backs to date! Steyrs are slow movers due solely to price differences in RSA.. Steyr Mannlicher in RSA is very expensive, compared to other brands.
The only Mannlicher that I ever owned was a 1910 Mannlicher Scoenhauer in 9,5mm calibre, inherited from an uncle who used it to hunt in the early days of Rhodesia. Ammo was difficult to come by and I never actually hunted with this rifle... although it shot pretty well still.

 

[Rule 303]

I have both old and new Rem 700's and Steyr's. I like the older Rems and the Steyr. I find the newer Rems and other mass produced US rifles do not have the fit and finish that the Steyr's do especially the newer Rems. I have seen a Rem 700 new in box that did not have a trigger in it. What I am getting at is that Remington has definitely dropped the quality ball.

I have never had a Rem or any other US massed produce firearm that shoots as well out of the box as the Steyr. Not saying they don't exist just that I have not seen one. My Rem 700 SPS in 375H&H shoots better than the CZ550 I had in the same calibre, 3 into 3/4". I know people who swear by Ruger, in long arms, I swear at them, because of the problems I have had with them.

I understand the majority of Americans are not rolling in cash and in most places don't/cant hunt all year round like in Australia and as such want a low cost rifle that will do the job and as such I think the US mass production rifle fills the need. The Europeans simply have a different outlook on the issue.

One question Shoedog. The 257 Roberts of your friends I take is on a 700 action not the M7 action?

 

[sierraone]

I have four M70s, the oldest is 42 years old, and two higher end Rugers, both in .416 Rigby. All of these rifles shoot better than I can shoot. BUT, I am looking forward to buying a double and maybe a Rigby or Mauser 98 in the future. They may or may not out shoot the 70s and the Rugers, but the quality and workmanship doesn't compare, which I realize has little or no effect on the downing a game animal!

 

[FairChase]

I did not intend this thread to be a Remington bashing, nonetheless some scrutiny is warranted...

For whatever reason, people have stayed loyal to Remington. Its hard for me to understand why since Remington knew there was a problem with their rifles, but did nothing about it. For decades the company covered up a design defect, which they continually denied even with overwhelming evidence. Once the pressure got too much, they agreed to a nationwide settlement filed in a federal court in Missouri. Remington agreed to replace the triggers in about 7.85 million rifles. 7.85 million rifles!!! Do you have one?

At least two dozen deaths and more than 100 serious injuries have been linked to inadvertent discharges of Remington 700 series rifles.

 

[lcq]

I personally don't own a Steyr. That grouping I posted is from my friend's Steyr. What impressed me most about it was that it shot groups like that straight out of the box with the first box of factory ammo he tried in it, which is by no means match grade target ammunition. I've owned and shot several Remingtons. As a matter of fact, I'm going hunting with one tomorrow. The only Remington I own that will shoot that well or better is my 40-X custom shop rifle. The rest of mine won't. I also know a guy with a mil spec 5R that is a tack driver as well - those are an excellent value IMO. So what will that Steyr do that a Remington won't? In a hunting situation, most likely nothing, IMO.

Well I have 3 savages a tikka and an ultra cheap remington 783 that shoot like that out of the box. never had any issues with reliability or safety. the remington is a picky eater and won't shoot boat tails.

 

[lcq]

I did not intend this thread to be a Remington bashing, nonetheless some scrutiny is warranted...

For whatever reason, people have stayed loyal to Remington. Its hard for me to understand why since Remington knew there was a problem with their rifles, but did nothing about it. For decades the company covered up a design defect, which they continually denied even with overwhelming evidence. Once the pressure got too much, they agreed to a nationwide settlement filed in a federal court in Missouri. Remington agreed to replace the triggers in about 7.85 million rifles. 7.85 million rifles!!! Do you have one?

At least two dozen deaths and more than 100 serious injuries have been linked to inadvertent discharges of Remington 700 series rifles.

I would take that with a pound of salt. First the deaths and injuries are most likely the result of fucking poor gun handling and the guilty or their relatives hired greedy lawyers to sue. Anyone who trusts a safety with their life doesn't deserve to own a gun. If the barrel is pointed in a safe direction, alcohol (Dick Cheney) or drugs are not involved and your finger is off the trigger you aren't going to shoot what you don't intend to. Sorry to be so blunt but safe gun handling isn't rocket science.

 

[JimP]

I did not intend this thread to be a Remington bashing, nonetheless some scrutiny is warranted...

It appears from your comments that is is about Remington, forgive me if I am wrong.

I have purchased 3 rifles in the last 20 or so years, I have slowed down in my older years. Of them a Weatherby MK V in .340 Weatherby mag, a Weatherby Vanguard in .25-06 and a old model Ruger 77 in 7 mm Rem mag. All three of those rifles will put 5 shots into a dime at 100 yards with either my hand loads or factory ammo if I do my part. The very first 6 shots out of the .25-06 two groups of three were all touching each other and I haven't even began to put a load together a load for it except for some starting loads that I have for it.

As for the lawsuits or recall that Remington has done I also agree that 90% of the problems were with how the rifles were handled, and I don't know how you can say that all 7.85 million of the rifles were defective. But in our new world of legal responsibility and law suit happy world they recalled all of them.

 

[Rob404]

I agree on poor gun handling being the cause of shooting accidents, just go to a range close to a large city and watch the Idiots, thank God I travel out to the sticks to shoot and then I'm still wary of whats happening around me, as far as Remingtons I would have no problem buying a Zastava built Remington as I prefer a CRF but that being said my new Weatherby push feed is flawless

 

[lcq]

I agree on poor gun handling being the cause of shooting accidents, just go to a range close to a large city and watch the Idiots, thank God I travel out to the sticks to shoot and then I'm still wary of whats happening around me, as far as Remingtons I would have no problem buying a Zastava built Remington as I prefer a CRF but that being said my new Weatherby push feed is flawless

A couple of years ago a week before deer season I was at a range outside Ottawa. While we were shooting at the benches a guy pulls up takes his 94 out of the case and opens the breech, out pops a live round that had likely been there for a year. The RSO justifiably had a cow and threw the buffoon off the range. He is very lucky there wasn't a cop or CO there because he could have lost his license. As scary as that sounds the guys who show up at the range once a year and are happy to hit the dirt in front of the 50 yd target are better than those who don't. I'm with you, I shoot at the military range and our small country club usually when I'm alone

 

[FairChase]

It appears from your comments that is is about Remington, forgive me if I am wrong...
As for the lawsuits or recall that Remington has done I also agree that 90% of the problems were with how the rifles were handled, and I don't know how you can say that all 7.85 million of the rifles were defective...

I can say that all 7.85 million rifles were defective because that is the number Remington agreed were defective and the number they agreed to fix as a part of the settlement in Federal Court.

 

[FairChase]

I would take that with a pound of salt. First the deaths and injuries are most likely the result of fu**ing poor gun handling...

I agree that Gun Safety is important... the numbers of deaths and injuries I mentioned comes from the evidence presented to the Federal Court. You can argue the validity with them, I'm just quoting what was presented in the case.

 

[JimP]

I can say that all 7.85 million rifles were defective because that is the number Remington agreed were defective and the number they agreed to fix as a part of the settlement in Federal Court.

I doubt that you could prove that there were 7.85 million defective rifles in the recall. But as all recalls are handled they recalled all of them. I couldn't tell you the number of recalls that I have seen that all they did was to inspect the known defect and if it was fine nothing was done to it.

In Remington's case what did they do to all the rifles that were sent in? Did they replace the whole trigger assembly or just the defective part and did everyone that owned a affected rifle send it in since there are so few "authorized service centers" for their firearms.

 

[FairChase]

I doubt that you could prove that there were 7.85 million defective rifles in the recall...

In Remington's case what did they do to all the rifles that were sent in? Did they replace the whole trigger assembly or just the defective part and did everyone that owned a affected rifle send it in since there are so few "authorized service centers" for their firearms.

The deign of the trigger assembly was found to be defective. Court records show that Remington knew about the issue for many years. The man who designed the trigger assembly in the 1940's informed Remington of potential issues, but the defect was never properly addressed.

Since it was a design issue and not a manufacturing oversight, the number comes from the amount of rifles that have that particular trigger assembly.

If you are interested in finding the details about the recall, the following is a link to Remington's page explaining the process.

http://www.remington.com/pages/news...all-notice-remington-model700-modelseven.aspx