The Quality of American Firearms...

[CDorroh]

How would you compare the cost of that custom Remington to the non-custom Steyr?

My 40-XB was just north of $2k when I bought it new. I'm not sure what my buddy paid for his Steyr.

 

[FairChase]

I think that the reason that you have a hard time convincing many to give up their "standard" U.S. gun, is we don't have any complaints with the guns that we own and shoot.

I have about 50 one shot kills on white-tailed deer, hogs, and the occasional stray predator and exactly two that went less than 50 yards that required a follow-up shot with my current off-the-shelf Remington (~$600). When I miss a shot that is the Remington's fault, I will consider looking at a "better" gun.

Thanx for your feedback... how many and which "non-USA" guns have you shot?

 

[FairChase]

My 40-XB was just north of $2k when I bought it new. I'm not sure what my buddy paid for his Steyr.

If you tell me which one, I can give you a price range... synthetic or wood stock, caliber?

 

[SHOEDOG]

Answer part one:
Due to price increases it was much cheaper when it was purchased new.At the time I purchased it it listed MSRP at $1200.
Part two:
Right place/time with cash in hand.
However before you envy me too muchI have overpaid on enough occasions to offset my rare bargain............

 

[CTDolan]

Yes, Montana Rifle Co. has had their share of issues, but that was early on. From talking with Brian and Jeff Sipe, the owners, I believe those issues have been resolved.

...except for perhaps the occasional cracked stock in the monster 505 Gibbs.

Personally, I tip my hat to MRC for bringing an affordable 505 Gibbs to the market, but I am aware that, should I purchase one, the stock may need replacement (unless I can manage to foot the extra dough for a Seven Continents Rifle, which has a synthetic stock, as opposed to wood).

As for domestic vs. foreign, Steyr vs. Remington/Winchester/Ruger/etc., a lot of it comes down to marketing, and money. Some of us struggle to put just one $700-$1,000 rifle in the rack; therefore, spending again as much simply is not an option (however, that said, the Steyr Pro Hunter, while not very traditional, is definiltey in the affordable, less costly range, as rifles go).

 

[CTDolan]

While on the subject of quality, check out this beaut!

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/alexander-henry-double-rifle.24887/

At the asking price, in my opinion, the rifle is an absolute steal. Yeah, it is a 450 3-1/4 BPE, but my God, the workmanship and quality of materials is FAR in excess of pretty much anything available today (and I am talking of the top-end, bespoke market here). Further, you couldn't have this rifle made today if you wanted, what with the gorgeous damascus barrels and all (yeah, there are a few who do (or can) still make such a tube, but good luck getting it done).

 

[Scott Slough]

Thanx for your feedback... how many and which "non-USA" guns have you shot?

None ... which is the point! It is mathematically impossible for a rifle to improve my hunting success.

 

[Peter Larsson]

Hunters are conservative .
Here most hunters bought Husqvarna hammerguns and Hva Rollingblock and 96/98 rifles
until Hva stopped makeing guns in the -70s.
Hva made hammerles shotguns in the late 1800s but not many hunters bought them.
They was not to be trusted!

 

[TokkieM]

Hate to break it to you but Steyr have their own issues,yes I owned 2,the last one for exactly the time it took to open the box and send it straight back. They have a tendancy to drop the grub screw below the bolt shroud (PSG). Mags are plastic and so is the trigger guard and mag wel,have had both the mag and wel break to pieces because of climate change and the stock warping. Action is as smooth as glass until you get some dust and sand in it,then like the Sauer 202 it is a bitch to operate. If they get wet, and were I hunt they do,the bolt will freeze shut in zub zero temps,so as smooth and accurate as they may be,they have issues. Sauer safety failed after 300 cycles.

Quality factory rifles are becoming less and less reliable,Sako too has quality issues and CZ quality is down right terrible today,any gun can be made to shoot sub MOA these days,but making them do that reliably for 3 to 4000 rounds is not that simple it seems.
I still own a Mauser or two and there is one American in my safe,but my go to gun for myself is a Finnish creation which also has it limits,but that out sells Steyr by 100-1 each day of the week for a few reasons,reliabillity,accuracy and affordability.

 

[CDorroh]

If you tell me which one, I can give you a price range... synthetic or wood stock, caliber?

My buddy says he paid $3k for the Steyr. Its a 9.3x62 with the full length wood stock. I believe his only options were some QD scope mounts and a grip cap with his initials.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Interesting subject sure to have and in fact has elicit some emotional responses. I've never shot a Steyr, have seen them here and there, but never shot one. I just haven't had the desire or the ability in years past to put that kind of money into those rifle. Now if I had the money, I would consider it. I've gone through a bit of return to the past over the last few years from all synthetic / stainless rifles to wood stocked and blued. The synthetic/stainless version is awfully hard to beat for putting up with the elements, but are not what I'd call visually appealing. But in the end here's what I have:

.458 B&M : Wildcat caliber build on a M70 WSM action with a custom stock. Easily the most money I've ever put into a rifle, somewhere in the neighborhood of $2500 I think. As far as I can tell with many rounds through it, it is flawless. It will shoot sub-MOA with DG soft rounds and to virtually the same POI with matching solids. Will do the same with 260gr PG rounds with brutal effectiveness.

.375H&H : A Safari Express M70 from the South Carolina factory. Shoots sub MOA 250gr North Fork BC's and 300gr North Fork BC's and Swift A-Frames all day long. It's one peculiarity is it will under the right conditions not feed properly if there is no crimp. Crimp your rounds there is no problem. Only complaint is that it is a bit forward heavy but had no problem taking critters with it. The forward heavy thing also helps minimize muzzle jump during firing. I think I paid with shipping $1100.

.300 Wiin Mag: A M70 Super Grade. For me very well balanced with nice wood. Will shoot 200gr North Fork Bonded Cores, sub MOA. Got this rifle in a two rifle deal that included a CZ in .416 Rigby. Grew to hate that thumper, though the rifle was fine. Ended up selling the CZ and in the end got the M70 for about $800.

.300H&H : Got two of pre-64 M70's now. Still working on load development, so not sure what they're capable of. But I love these two rifles that handle and cycle very well, but time will tell on accuracy. I know for at least one of these rifles, it will shoot right at or just slightly worse than MOA 180gr Accubonds, but as I say still working on it.

.30-06 : M70 FW, just started working load development, so I don't know accuracy. Quite a handy little gun. I bought it for the wife, but may be sorry about that. Even with 165gr loads it's got a bit of recoil due to the low weight. This gun did give me a bit of a problem that I ran by the gunsmith. Seems he was able to bring this gun in with a pressure point on the front end. So yes, it's not flawless. I got if for $600 and will have another $100 in with the smith. If it goes sub MOA as I think it will with load development, I don't care.

7mm Mag: I've had this one longer than any other rifle in my arsenal. Shoots 140gr Ballistic Tips and 160gr Partitions sub MOA all day long. Have killed mule deer at reasonable distances, Coues deer at 400 yards, elk and moose with it. This a leftover from my stainless/synthetic days. I think I paid somewhere around $700 for it.

7x57: M70 FW I got for my son. Perfect out of the box. Will shoot MOA or better with 140gr North Fork Bonded Cores. Awesome handling rifle with recoil that my 12 year old can handle and did shooting numerous animals in Africa this past summer after many practice sessions at the range. Paid $750 I think it was a couple years ago when Winchester had that run of FW's in this caliber.

None of these rifles require me to drop to my waist to cycle the bolt. But none of these rifles and I mean none of them will out do my older son's...........
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wait for it
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Tikka T3 Lite .308 Winchester. I paid with tax no more than $550 for this rifle. The boy put three in a hole the first time he shot it. The hole was also only just slightly larger than .308. It is a ridiculously accurate out of the box rifle. Extremely easy to develop loads for. As smooth a bolt as you can ask for. It will not win any beauty contests, but the critters he shot and will in the future shoot weren't / will not be aware of this.

I appreciate a finely made weapon as much as anyone. It is quite obvious when you pick one up the differences, but it is hardly necessary to be successful in taking game.

 

[CTDolan]

Interesting subject sure to have and in fact has elicit some emotional responses. I've never shot a Steyr, have seen them here and there, but never shot one. I just haven't had the desire or the ability in years past to put that kind of money into those rifle. Now if I had the money, I would consider it. I've gone through a bit of return to the past over the last few years from all synthetic / stainless rifles to wood stocked and blued. The synthetic/stainless version is awfully hard to beat for putting up with the elements, but are not what I'd call visually appealing. But in the end here's what I have:

.458 B&M : Wildcat caliber build on a M70 WSM action with a custom stock. Easily the most money I've ever put into a rifle, somewhere in the neighborhood of $2500 I think. As far as I can tell with many rounds through it, it is flawless. It will shoot sub-MOA with DG soft rounds and to virtually the same POI with matching solids. Will do the same with 260gr PG rounds with brutal effectiveness.

.375H&H : A Safari Express M70 from the South Carolina factory. Shoots sub MOA 250gr North Fork BC's and 300gr North Fork BC's and Swift A-Frames all day long. It's one peculiarity is it will under the right conditions not feed properly if there is no crimp. Crimp your rounds there is no problem. Only complaint is that it is a bit forward heavy but had no problem taking critters with it. The forward heavy thing also helps minimize muzzle jump during firing. I think I paid with shipping $1100.

.300 Wiin Mag: A M70 Super Grade. For me very well balanced with nice wood. Will shoot 200gr North Fork Bonded Cores, sub MOA. Got this rifle in a two rifle deal that included a CZ in .416 Rigby. Grew to hate that thumper, though the rifle was fine. Ended up selling the CZ and in the end got the M70 for about $800.

.300H&H : Got two of pre-64 M70's now. Still working on load development, so not sure what they're capable of. But I love these two rifles that handle and cycle very well, but time will tell on accuracy. I know for at least one of these rifles, it will shoot right at or just slightly worse than MOA 180gr Accubonds, but as I say still working on it.

.30-06 : M70 FW, just started working load development, so I don't know accuracy. Quite a handy little gun. I bought it for the wife, but may be sorry about that. Even with 165gr loads it's got a bit of recoil due to the low weight. This gun did give me a bit of a problem that I ran by the gunsmith. Seems he was able to bring this gun in with a pressure point on the front end. So yes, it's not flawless. I got if for $600 and will have another $100 in with the smith. If it goes sub MOA as I think it will with load development, I don't care.

7mm Mag: I've had this one longer than any other rifle in my arsenal. Shoots 140gr Ballistic Tips and 160gr Partitions sub MOA all day long. Have killed mule deer at reasonable distances, Coues deer at 400 yards, elk and moose with it. This a leftover from my stainless/synthetic days. I think I paid somewhere around $700 for it.

7x57: M70 FW I got for my son. Perfect out of the box. Will shoot MOA or better with 140gr North Fork Bonded Cores. Awesome handling rifle with recoil that my 12 year old can handle and did shooting numerous animals in Africa this past summer after many practice sessions at the range. Paid $750 I think it was a couple years ago when Winchester had that run of FW's in this caliber.

None of these rifles require me to drop to my waist to cycle the bolt. But none of these rifles and I mean none of them will out do my older son's...........
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
wait for it
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Tikka T3 Lite .308 Winchester. I paid with tax no more than $550 for this rifle. The boy put three in a hole the first time he shot it. The hole was also only just slightly larger than .308. It is a ridiculously accurate out of the box rifle. Extremely easy to develop loads for. As smooth a bolt as you can ask for. It will not win any beauty contests, but the critters he shot and will in the future shoot weren't / will not be aware of this.

I appreciate a finely made weapon as much as anyone. It is quite obvious when you pick one up the differences, but it is hardly necessary to be successful in taking game.

Excellent post!

 

[JimP]

Well, first let me state what it WON'T do; accidentally discharge like Remington.
See link to Class Action Settlement: http://remingtonfirearmsclassactionsettlement.com/

What it will do, because of its design (and IMHO, better craftsmanship), is it will allow the shooter to recycle the bolt for a follow-up shot while the rifle remains in place and therefore, does not need to re-acquire the target. Many Americans have become accustomed to dropping the rifle to their waist in order to re-cycle the bolt and then are then forced to re-acquire the target. Perhaps this is due to the excessive play in the receiver/bolt assembly. The difference becomes more noticeable when shooting while standing or kneeling which is often the case on a stalk. The second option a Steyr has over Remington is the inclusion of a Single Set Trigger. You may not miss this feature until you have used it successfully and are now shooting a rifle without it.

There are other differences, but these are the more noticeable.

Many and all manufactures will have recalls done sooner or later, it is a matter of fact for mass produced products.

About dropping the rifle to chamber a second round, that is a learned habit of the shooter and not the fault of the rifle.

 

[Spooksar]

Your comments about shooting and reloading off the shoulder, has noting to do with the gun. It's the shooter that's the problem, the average North American does not practice this so they don't do it. I shot with a lot of old vets and they could still do the 11 shots in 10 seconds with a $25 Lee Enfield.

 

[FairChase]

Your comments about shooting and reloading off the shoulder, has noting to do with the gun. It's the shooter that's the problem, the average North American does not practice this so they don't do it. I shot with a lot of old vets and they could still do the 11 shots in 10 seconds with a $25 Lee Enfield.

I disagree... it has much to do with the rifle. Just take a look at the bolt handle and the stock of a Steyr. They were designed the way they are to better facilitate the follow-up shot. I'm not saying most, if not all rifles, can't perform this task, I'm suggesting there are rifles that do it much better due to their intrinsic design. Offhand, I can't name one American-made rifle that has similar features.

I do agree about this technique being lost on most American hunters. Many of those that I have encountered have not utilized the benefit of this technique of shooting or are completely unaware of it. The same argument can probably be said of the Set Trigger. Perhaps a reason why people have not discovered the benefits of rifles such as Steyr and why American rifles are made the way they are.

 

[Wheels]

**
#2) Why do so many Americans prefer to buy the standard American made hunting rifle...

For me it was easy. I carried my Fathers prejudices of pro American made rifles for the first 40+ years of my life. (Possibly I am easily influenced and don't have original thoughts.) He developed his opinions during WWII when American made weapons served him and his compatriots well. The only two firearms he ever owned that were foreign made was a German officers Walther pistol that he traded a carton of Lucky Strikes for during the war and an FN manufactured .458wm which was okay since it had John Browning's name stamped on the side.


Conversely, I had a neighbor who served in the Vietnam war when there were major issues with the M16 jamming during battle. He cursed Stoner as long as I knew him. He swore he would never buy another GM vehicle the rest of his life. He also recommended for me and others to not buy GM vehicles. We have lost track of each other many years ago but I am certain he has kept that promise. (GM evidently manufactured the M16 in those days)


In difficult times we learn what we can and can not depend on. We develop opinions and we influence those we are close to with those opinions. Not sure if this answer applies to anyone else but it applies to me.

BTW, I haven't bought an American made "off the shelf" firearm since the 1970's. Not that I wouldn't, it just wasn't the best choice at the time of the decision.

 

[Hank2211]

For me it was easy. I carried my Fathers prejudices of pro American made rifles for the first 40+ years of my life. (Possibly I am easily influenced and don't have original thoughts.) He developed his opinions during WWII when American made weapons served him and his compatriots well. The only two firearms he ever owned that were foreign made was a German officers Walther pistol that he traded a carton of Lucky Strikes for during the war and an FN manufactured .458wm which was okay since it had John Browning's name stamped on the side.


Conversely, I had a neighbor who served in the Vietnam war when there were major issues with the M16 jamming during battle. He cursed Stoner as long as I knew him. He swore he would never buy another GM vehicle the rest of his life. He also recommended for me and others to not buy GM vehicles. We have lost track of each other many years ago but I am certain he has kept that promise. (GM evidently manufactured the M16 in those days)


In difficult times we learn what we can and can not depend on. We develop opinions and we influence those we are close to with those opinions. Not sure if this answer applies to anyone else but it applies to me.

BTW, I haven't bought an American made "off the shelf" firearm since the 1970's. Not that I wouldn't, it just wasn't the best choice at the time of the decision.

Let me add one other reason. American rifles tend to be simple. I mean that as a complement.

I think a Blaser is a wonderful piece of engineering, but when I'm in Africa, I want simple. Something that I can fix with whatever tools are at hand. That's often not the case with European rifles - not a problem if you're hunting wild boar outside of Munich, with access to some of the best engineers in the world a phone call away. But a problem in Matetsi.

 

[FairChase]

Hate to break it to you but Steyr have their own issues,yes I owned 2,the last one for exactly the time it took to open the box and send it straight back. They have a tendancy to drop the grub screw below the bolt shroud (PSG). Mags are plastic and so is the trigger guard and mag wel,have had both the mag and wel break to pieces because of climate change and the stock warping. Action is as smooth as glass until you get some dust and sand in it,then like the Sauer 202 it is a bitch to operate. If they get wet, and were I hunt they do,the bolt will freeze shut in zub zero temps,so as smooth and accurate as they may be,they have issues. Sauer safety failed after 300 cycles.

Quality factory rifles are becoming less and less reliable,Sako too has quality issues and CZ quality is down right terrible today,any gun can be made to shoot sub MOA these days,but making them do that reliably for 3 to 4000 rounds is not that simple it seems.
I still own a Mauser or two and there is one American in my safe,but my go to gun for myself is a Finnish creation which also has it limits,but that out sells Steyr by 100-1 each day of the week for a few reasons,reliabillity,accuracy and affordability.

I would never say that Steyr hasn't had their issues, but would certainly say their problems have been far less than many other manufacturers.

I certainly agree with you about the polymer mags and mag well. I spoke to Steyr's owner, Ernst Reichmayer, about it at the SHOT Show a couple years ago and his response was not exactly what I wanted to hear. He said that they have had so few complaints that they did not see it feasible to make a change. The same was said about the SBS safety. I had a local machine shop make me a replacement safety switch made of aluminum. Something one should not have to do for a rifle that costs as much as they do.

As far as the freeze up, there are a number of water repelling lubes that I have field tested with good-great results. With the help of a friend, that happens to be a Chemical Engineer, we developed a gun cleaner/lube combo that integrates this hydrophobic feature and has helped to prevent freezing. Typical regulatory/labeling issues have prevented us from offering it to the market. But we are still hopeful.

As this relates to Steyr, I used these products on mine while elk hunting in northern Colorado. I didn't experience any problems even when we sprayed water on the action/bolt assembly and let it sit outside in sub-freezing weather.

The bolt being affected by grit can be a problem, but I have been able to quickly resolve it in the field by removing the bolt and using a small spray can of Liquid Wrench Silicon Spray to dislodge and remove the grit. I then reapplied the lube.

 

[CTDolan]

I disagree... it has much to do with the rifle. Just take a look at the bolt handle and the stock of a Steyr. They were designed the way they are to better facilitate the follow-up shot. I'm not saying most, if not all rifles, can't perform this task, I'm suggesting there are rifles that do it much better due to their intrinsic design. Offhand, I can't name one American-made rifle that has similar features.

I do agree about this technique being lost on most American hunters. Many of those that I have encountered have not utilized the benefit of this technique of shooting or are completely unaware of it. The same argument can probably be said of the Set Trigger. Perhaps a reason why people have not discovered the benefits of rifles such as Steyr and why American rifles are made the way they are.

With all due respect, I think you're drawing too many assumptions. Many (most) do not keep the rifle on the shoulder while operating the bolt simply because, in most cases, it is not necessary. If something big, tough, and angry is bearing down, I'd guess that 100% of bolt action shooters will not take the rifle from the shoulder when cycling the bolt (and will have not issue cycling the bolt, no matter the make). But, when taking a typical shot, there's really no reason to keep the rifle on the shoulder. In other words, it comes down to the situation, not the make of rifle (or even the training of the shooter). My opinion.

 

[jeff]

I want to spend my money hunting and so I don't spend it on high end equipment. I know guys who have the very best but can't afford to hunt as much as I do.