The old crf vs prf debate....

[bruce moulds]

there is another thing to consider with the mauser, and that is what is referred to as mauser breeching.
the whole case up to the extractor groove in supported by chamber.
with remington breeching, an overload will leave tha case looking like a belted case, as part of the case head is unsupported.
this offers more potential for a gas leak.
again, sensible pressures are recommended.
the dakota is like a m70, but with mauser breeching - the best of both worlds.
bruce.

 

[Rule 303]

ben,
i have ripped part of the rim off in a rem 700, leaving a case stuck in the chamber.
only once.
probably part of the issues i mentioned can be dealt with by not loading ammo to high pressures, and adequately sizing cases.
however i now prefer controlled round feed 2 lug actions.
actions i have include dakota 76, mauser, and m 70 win.
i have always thought mauser is up there if a case ruptures as well.
bruce.

Bruce I have had an M17 - read Mauser 98- claw extractor jump the rim of a stuck case. So not totally sold -almost but not totally-on the sales pitch about the Mauser extractor. Yes I think it is the best extractor out there, just not 100% reliable. Like you I believe the Mauser 98 is right up there in dealing with ruptured cases.

Your non fitting ammo may well have been the brass in the case was to soft and you would need a small base die to have any hope of getting it to fit. Had that problem with a batch of brass once. It got junked.

 

[bruce moulds]

it is all about increasing probability of a good outcome.
anything to do with human beings has the potential for fault.
bruce.

 

[Rule 303]

Bruce, never a truer word has been said.

 

[Scrumbag]

Not sure we really need to continue this thread . . . but it seems I can't help myself . . .

The Field is a magazine published monthly in the UK. It calls itself "The Bible of fieldsports for 165 years" and to the extent any magazine can claim that, it can.

The September 2018 issue contains an article entitled "London Rifles Stil Hit the Mark." The first page shows a picture of two hunters lying prone, one ready to take shot in the Scottish highlands. The caption reads "Deerstalking in the Highlands requires the accuracy of a controlled feed-action rifle."

Note that this states that CRF improves accuracy, not just feeding. It then goes on to praise the three main London rifle makers - Purdey, Rigby and Holland & Holland, all of which use Mauser CRF actions in their rifles.

To quote my children, "just saying."

Ah, the Field. A magazine to which I no longer subscribe as one article spent more time talking about hospitality and cigars than reviewing a particular pheasant shoot...

And given the patronage those illustrious gun makers heap on "The Field" I'm not surprised.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Rule 303,

Just a "tiny" detail about M17 extractor. The M17, Springfield, Win 54 and 70 and ALL the pre 98 Mausers, have NOT a true M98 Mauser extractor. In the M98 sistem, the extractor claw cannot jump a stuck case rim. Instead, the claw can cut a piece of the rim or (very unlikely) break itself, before any jump over the rim!!
This is because the female bolt head guide for the male extractor guide are, both, machined at an angle. So, the more resistance by a case to be extracted, the more "bite" of the male extractor guide inside the female bolt head extractor guide! This is an important design feature, and improvement for a sure extraction, of the M98 above all other bolt actions of their time
The only commercial bolt actions other than the true M98 derivatives (like FN and Zastava), that maintain this M98 extractor feature, are the BRNOs ZKKs and the later 550 serie.

Best!

CF

 

[mark-hunter]

The only commercial bolt actions other than the true M98 derivatives (like FN and Zastava), that maintain this M98 extractor feature, are the BRNOs ZKKs and the later 550 serie.

With following note:
- Brno and ZKK no longer in production.

- CZ 550 in medium calibers is no longer in production (phased out by push feed 557 line), remains only the production line for tropical calibers for 550 line, and ...

-Zastava is producing only 375 HH and 458 wm in African calibers, plus practically all/most of medium commercial calibers.

 

[Cousin Bongo]

What Clodo Ferreira said is true - the Mauser 98 extractor has a bevel in it which corresponds to a bevel in the bolt so that the harder one pulls on the bolt the harder the extractor bites into the cartridge case rim. The 1917 Enfield extractors do not have this feature. I have two 1917s and several 98s in the shop and the differences in extractors are obvious upon examination. A Mauser 98 extractor in good condition - i.e. one that is not damaged or worn or modified - will extract something even (if it’s only part of the rim) or it will break. The only actions which have the Mauser 98 type extractor that I know about are what Clodo Ferreira listed above. All the rest I know of are Mauser-like and they lack the bevel/undercut feature of the 98.

Push feed or “controlled round feed” - it really doesn’t matter provided the rifle has been run hard through its paces and has proven to be 100% reliable. (Even so, my bigger caliber hard use rifles are built on Mauser 98s...but that’s just an emotional thing.)

CB

 

[Rule 303]

CF thanks for the info.

"Push feed or “controlled round feed” - it really doesn’t matter provided the rifle has been run hard through its paces and has proven to be 100% reliable. (Even so, my bigger caliber hard use rifles are built on Mauser 98s...but that’s just an emotional thing.)"

CB ^ Very true

 

[Dr Ray]

I have not given push or control fees much thought until I read this post. I have “semi” Crf in Sakos, push feed in an old Winchester and a Remington 700.
I’ll make sure every round feeds without dramas before I go out with the push feed rifles.
Thanks for posting this article. Certainly makes you think about things.

 

[Luvthunt]

WELL, in a perfect world it does not matter whether CRF or PRF as the sport will make the shot so no need for a backup. However, should th PH feel the need to participate his 500-600-700 [whatever] will end all discussion.no need for a second from either party.

Do have to add one personal detail—when I hunted Namibia in 1993 my PH was carrying a REMINGTON 700. I know many of you PHs would know his name, he had been in the buisness a long time.

 

[TTundra]

The caption reads "Deerstalking in the Highlands requires the accuracy of a controlled feed-action rifle."

Note that this states that CRF improves accuracy, not just feeding. It then goes on to praise the three main London rifle makers - Purdey, Rigby and Holland & Holland, all of which use Mauser CRF actions in their rifles.

To quote my children, "just saying."

Sounds like that author was getting greased under the table. I'd like to be at the fire where he is asked to substantiate that claim with evidence as I have never seen any, and to the contrary, see more evidence of target shooters and world records coming from the opposite.

In the end, I guess they are trying to 'sell' and will use a line or two, supported or not, to get their will expressed

 

[IvW]

WELL, in a perfect world it does not matter whether CRF or PRF as the sport will make the shot so no need for a backup. However, should th PH feel the need to participate his 500-600-700 [whatever] will end all discussion.no need for a second from either party.

Do have to add one personal detail—when I hunted Namibia in 1993 my PH was carrying a REMINGTON 700. I know many of you PHs would know his name, he had been in the buisness a long time.

What where you hunting 25 years ago in Namibia?
What caliber was the rifle?

M 700 is one of the worst actions to use on a DG rifle, especially for back-up.

When hunting springbok and gemsbok I guess it doesn't really matter.
But for DG in the thick stuff no thanks.

 

[Luvthunt]

458 Win mag

 

[IvW]

458 Win mag

Hunting what?

 

[Bas]

Did you get the information from this thread that you need or are you still in need of info.?

11
I was wondering if any one had compiled data To SUPPORT documented occurrences of weapon malfunction while afield under hunting conditions. One replied maybe double rifles should be included as they are commonly used for DG. Just looking at reliability as a whole. There may not be statistics recorded to determine the true story. Only curiosity prompted the inquiry in an attempt to crunch numbers using real word usage. Looks like the stats may not exist.

 

[Luvthunt]

I believe there were occurrences that there was no one left to record stats.
Unless you have the expierence of Africa you may not realize that in many cases humans are prey not predators. Hence the need for a reliabile weapon and not for sport but for self protection.

 

[IvW]

Hence the need for a reliabile weapon...

And a Remington Model 700 in 458 WM is very poor example of this...
Rather a good example of what not to use..

 

[bruce moulds]

adding a sako extractor improves the rem 700 in terms of extraction.
adding an extractor cam improves a sako.
bruce.

 

[IvW]

adding a sako extractor improves the rem 700 in terms of extraction.
adding an extractor cam improves a sako.
bruce.

Or just get a Mauser or BRNO ZKK which also gives you 3-5 in the mag depending on the caliber, no improvements needed