The old crf vs prf debate....

[baxterb]

All i know is that there is something very satisfying about working a PROPERLY setup Mauser action. It’s like a small machine (remember it’s called the System 98), with all of its interconnected parts working together. Really fine actions like FZH and Prechtl, GMA, or Mayfair are things of beauty.

 

[Fastrig]

I see that several learned and experienced gentlemen are providing their insight on this subject . Thus , I felt that I might as well provide my own .
Below , is a link to an article which I have recently written for African Hunting Forums . It is titled " Tools Of The Trade : Rifles & Reliability .
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/tools-of-the-trade-rifles-reliability.55422/
I refer all of you gentlemen to the section " Push Feed Phobia " .
Please bear in mind that these are merely my personal observations on the subject , gathered from my 10 year career as a professional shikaree ( from 1961 to 1970 ) in Nagpur , India. I mean not to act authoritarian in my views , because I always believe in keeping an open mind when discussing any debatable subjects .

GREAT article!!! Thank you. In modern rifles, IMO, the arguments between the two are pretty much null and void. A quality rifle of either type feed is going to give years of worry free service, if maintained and cared for properly.

 

[Major Khan]

GREAT article!!! Thank you. In modern rifles, IMO, the arguments between the two are pretty much null and void. A quality rifle of either type feed is going to give years of worry free service, if maintained and cared for properly.

Why thank you ! While doing my own research for writing that part of the article , it had been brought to my attention that the English company , John Rigby & Co . had actually built 3 bolt rifles in the 1970s , which were all chambered in .458 Winchester magnum calibre and built on Sako actions . I really hope that someday. I get to see 1 of these 3 rifles in existence.

 

[baxterb]

Bruce I have had an M17 - read Mauser 98- claw extractor jump the rim of a stuck case. So not totally sold -almost but not totally-on the sales pitch about the Mauser extractor. Yes I think it is the best extractor out there, just not 100% reliable. Like you I believe the Mauser 98 is right up there in dealing with ruptured cases.

Your non fitting ammo may well have been the brass in the case was to soft and you would need a small base die to have any hope of getting it to fit. Had that problem with a batch of brass once. It got junked.

the m-17 does not have the “deep undercut” of a Mauser, that’s why it can jump the rim. The foot behind the extractor blade is more like a model 70 and does not have the angled “catch” that wedges the extractor blade against the case upon extraction.

 

[Tanks]

Every branch of the US military (and many other countries) use a 700 push feed rifle for their long range work. So ya, definitely not for use in stressful situations, especially when your life or the life of your guys are at stake...

Ahem, one elephant I shot burst out of the bushes at 18 meters. Brain shot, but I worked the bolt and put another as it was going down. Didn't need to worry about short stroking it due to stress etc. due to CRF.

Snipers are shooting prone, ranging, reading the wind, adjusting their scope and finally taking their shot (I know some of that can be done earlier if doing overwatch in field conditions). Different levels of stress. The final test at Quantico was not hitting the gong and rapidly hitting it again, it was hitting it and still be concealed so the observers could not locate you after the shot.

 

[Von S.]

Sure, they both can work under MOST circumstances and both can malfunction if dirty but that’s not the point.

A proper CRF rifle is a requirement in those circumstances when things go badly on a DG hunt with a wounded or charging animal or when you’ve been knocked down with your rifle inverted while laying on your back or side trying to get another round in the chamber! I’m not talking about shooting off of sticks here as a client. When things go haywire, you want a bolt that grabs onto that cartridge. I have been to Africa several times and I guide for brown bears in Alaska where a good friend of mine was horribly mauled by a wounded brown bear when his rifle malfunctioned after he was knocked down. That’s what a proper CRF rifle is for and anything less is a risk to your life and the others in your party.

Oh my.....

How about when going over Niagara Falls in a barrel?

In the 40 plus years in my shop I have sold thousands of rifles and handguns. I have also trained hundreds of people how to shoot and where to hit animals at. In that time and before I have personally fired many thousands of rounds out of just about every firearm made as well as calibers from .22 to 20 mm and have never experienced the almost never ending drama of unbelieveable catastrophic firearm failures that I have read here at this site.

Scott........yes......I do believe that people get stomped and eated world wide even if they are armed to the teeth, but to make a claim that putting everyone else with you in mortal danger because you have a push feed is simply preposterous .

I have never.....ever had a rifle of any make ever not fire and put yet another un-necessary round in the chamber simply because I have been able to control myself and not take wild jackasstic shots that the chances of making a clean one shot kill about as likely as hitting the big lottery with one ticket. And though I have killed everything that I have hit ,I must admit that I have allowed many animals walk off into the sunset unscathed never to be seen by me ever again .

I most assuredly do not now nor have I ever announced to the world that I am some sort of world class hunter.......what I am is world class lucky with the were with all to go places and get my Wild Bill on.

I have shot freight car loads of wild pigs, but never one over 150 pounds, shot many cape buffalo, but nothing worth shooting about. And none of the big five were that big, but after one shot they all became dead.......real fast.

The only thing that I have been real lucky at was bear murdering.... big bear murdering..... and every now and then a giant bunny.

For the past 30 years with nothing smaller than a 378 and the last Russian giant with a 600 ok.

In all the hunts...... with all the places I went with all the people who went with me there was no gun failures......0....nyet.......nonk......none with all the different rifles and calibers simply because I went over all their weapons and the correct way to operate them.

Of course when someone doesn't load their gun and then drops the hammer on a empty chamber, the cycles it two more times and gets two more "tinks" after squeezing the trigger and the animal walks off....

So Squire Scott...... to put it simple........ anything can break...... anything can malfunction...... but no manufacturer makes guns that are designed not to function flawlessly.

 

[Newboomer]

I think 99% of failures are operator error either through negligence, ignorance or failure to maintain their equipment. The equipment won't fail by itself. There has to be a human element involved.

 

[Fastrig]

Oh my.....

How about when going over Niagara Falls in a barrel?

In the 40 plus years in my shop I have sold thousands of rifles and handguns. I have also trained hundreds of people how to shoot and where to hit animals at. In that time and before I have personally fired many thousands of rounds out of just about every firearm made as well as calibers from .22 to 20 mm and have never experienced the almost never ending drama of unbelieveable catastrophic firearm failures that I have read here at this site.

Scott........yes......I do believe that people get stomped and eated world wide even if they are armed to the teeth, but to make a claim that putting everyone else with you in mortal danger because you have a push feed is simply preposterous .

I have never.....ever had a rifle of any make ever not fire and put yet another un-necessary round in the chamber simply because I have been able to control myself and not take wild jackasstic shots that the chances of making a clean one shot kill about as likely as hitting the big lottery with one ticket. And though I have killed everything that I have hit ,I must admit that I have allowed many animals walk off into the sunset unscathed never to be seen by me ever again .

I most assuredly do not now nor have I ever announced to the world that I am some sort of world class hunter.......what I am is world class lucky with the were with all to go places and get my Wild Bill on.

I have shot freight car loads of wild pigs, but never one over 150 pounds, shot many cape buffalo, but nothing worth shooting about. And none of the big five were that big, but after one shot they all became dead.......real fast.

The only thing that I have been real lucky at was bear murdering.... big bear murdering..... and every now and then a giant bunny.

For the past 30 years with nothing smaller than a 378 and the last Russian giant with a 600 ok.

In all the hunts...... with all the places I went with all the people who went with me there was no gun failures......0....nyet.......nonk......none with all the different rifles and calibers simply because I went over all their weapons and the correct way to operate them.

Of course when someone doesn't load their gun and then drops the hammer on a empty chamber, the cycles it two more times and gets two more "tinks" after squeezing the trigger and the animal walks off....

So Squire Scott...... to put it simple........ anything can break...... anything can malfunction...... but no manufacturer makes guns that are designed not to function flawlessly.

BINGO!!!! Haven't been hunting as much as you, haven't shot the wide variety of rifles as you, nor shot that many rounds, BUT been hunting for 40 years and never had a single rifle, shotgun or handgun of any kind fail on me. Lever action, semis, pumps, over unders, side by sides, bolt action, not one of them failed to fire properly so long as I wasn't the problem. Forgot to load a couple which cost me a nice buck and a big elk, but that sure as hell wasn't the rifles fault, nor the feed type.

 

[Newboomer]

BINGO!!!! Haven't been hunting as much as you, haven't shot the wide variety of rifles as you, nor shot that many rounds, BUT been hunting for 40 years and never had a single rifle, shotgun or handgun of any kind fail on me. Lever action, semis, pumps, over unders, side by sides, bolt action, not one of them failed to fire properly so long as I wasn't the problem. Forgot to load a couple which cost me a nice buck and a big elk, but that sure as hell wasn't the rifles fault, nor the feed type.

Rule Number One in the military: You clean that damn weapon just as soon as you get back from a mission because you don't know when you'll go out again. Your life and those around you depend on that rifle.

 

[Fastrig]

Rule Number One in the military: You clean that damn weapon just as soon as you get back from a mission because you don't know when you'll go out again. Your life and those around you depend on that rifle.

That’s how I was taught....

 

[Ray B]

I'm not as concerned about CRF v PF, My concern is the size and strength of the extractor. I want the extractor to have as large a grip on the rim as possible and to be strong enough that I don't have to concern myself with some tiny piece of metal breaking under pressure. Generally this means that I'll be using a Pre-64 type Winchester and leaving the Remington 700 at home.

 

[Von S.]

Just for the hell of it Ray.............

Tell us just how many Remington 700 extractors have you personally broken in your lifetime just shooting and not trying to dig one out the wrong way with a screwdriver?

Though one guy swears he broke his shooting the 3 other I replaced in 40 years were broken by the owner in an attempt to take it out......... for whatever reason

 

[Scott CWO]

I stand behind my previous statements. Almost all PHs use CRF for the reasons I have outlined.

Military applications for shooting humans at longer range are a completely different situation and there's no way to make an automatic rifle with CRF and ejection.

 

[Scott CWO]

Oh my.....

How about when going over Niagara Falls in a barrel?

In the 40 plus years in my shop I have sold thousands of rifles and handguns. I have also trained hundreds of people how to shoot and where to hit animals at. In that time and before I have personally fired many thousands of rounds out of just about every firearm made as well as calibers from .22 to 20 mm and have never experienced the almost never ending drama of unbelieveable catastrophic firearm failures that I have read here at this site.

Scott........yes......I do believe that people get stomped and eated world wide even if they are armed to the teeth, but to make a claim that putting everyone else with you in mortal danger because you have a push feed is simply preposterous .

I have never.....ever had a rifle of any make ever not fire and put yet another un-necessary round in the chamber simply because I have been able to control myself and not take wild jackasstic shots that the chances of making a clean one shot kill about as likely as hitting the big lottery with one ticket. And though I have killed everything that I have hit ,I must admit that I have allowed many animals walk off into the sunset unscathed never to be seen by me ever again .

I most assuredly do not now nor have I ever announced to the world that I am some sort of world class hunter.......what I am is world class lucky with the were with all to go places and get my Wild Bill on.

I have shot freight car loads of wild pigs, but never one over 150 pounds, shot many cape buffalo, but nothing worth shooting about. And none of the big five were that big, but after one shot they all became dead.......real fast.

The only thing that I have been real lucky at was bear murdering.... big bear murdering..... and every now and then a giant bunny.

For the past 30 years with nothing smaller than a 378 and the last Russian giant with a 600 ok.

In all the hunts...... with all the places I went with all the people who went with me there was no gun failures......0....nyet.......nonk......none with all the different rifles and calibers simply because I went over all their weapons and the correct way to operate them.

Of course when someone doesn't load their gun and then drops the hammer on a empty chamber, the cycles it two more times and gets two more "tinks" after squeezing the trigger and the animal walks off....

So Squire Scott...... to put it simple........ anything can break...... anything can malfunction...... but no manufacturer makes guns that are designed not to function flawlessly.

You can joke all you like. Even with all your experience, you've obviously never been on your back with a 900 pound brown bear trying to get at your throat while you are trying to get another round loaded. I doubt anyone would be just nonchalantly working the bolt nice and normal. The manufacturer paid his medical bills. After many months of rehab and surgeries, he now carries a proper CRF rifle and a sidearm. I don't understand your belief that a rifle that takes hold of the cartridge in a more secure manner is not superior for DG. Doesn't make any sense.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi,

Almost ALL military bolt action rifles in the first half of the 20 century were CRF. For use with VERY inexperienced and careless shooters, many in very hard conditions.
Mauser itself started with push feed actions (M1889 belgian throught 1891 argentine), but WITH IN LINE MAGAZINES.
But even with that magazine apeared the 1892 spanish with the first blade extractor an CRF. BUT, until the M1898, the blade guide didn't have the angled undercut.
All this, to me, show a clear path to a near perfect and foolproof feeding-extracting system.
No argument to me.

Best Regards!

CF

 

[Rule 303]

Sure, they both can work under MOST circumstances and both can malfunction if dirty but that’s not the point.

A proper CRF rifle is a requirement in those circumstances when things go badly on a DG hunt with a wounded or charging animal or when you’ve been knocked down with your rifle inverted while laying on your back or side trying to get another round in the chamber! I’m not talking about shooting off of sticks here as a client. When things go haywire, you want a bolt that grabs onto that cartridge. I have been to Africa several times and I guide for brown bears in Alaska where a good friend of mine was horribly mauled by a wounded brown bear when his rifle malfunctioned after he was knocked down. That’s what a proper CRF rifle is for and anything less is a risk to your life and the others in your party.

Utter hogwash. Push feed work upside down. Proven. CRF fuck up just like push feeds do. Proven. Either type if in good condition and the hands of a person who is competent will work in most conditions. Either type in good or bad condition can fail in the hands of an incompetent person.

Just remember the most dangerous game on earth is now, almost exclusively, hunted with push feed. That DG would be man and they have a habit of shooting back.

Yes, I nowadays prefer CRF for big cartridges and hunting the DG that we hunt on safari.

 

[Rule 303]

Ahem, one elephant I shot burst out of the bushes at 18 meters. Brain shot, but I worked the bolt and put another as it was going down. Didn't need to worry about short stroking it due to stress etc. due to CRF.

Snipers are shooting prone, ranging, reading the wind, adjusting their scope and finally taking their shot (I know some of that can be done earlier if doing overwatch in field conditions). Different levels of stress. The final test at Quantico was not hitting the gong and rapidly hitting it again, it was hitting it and still be concealed so the observers could not locate you after the shot.

Tanks I hate to tell you that you can short stroke a CRF as easy as any other type, and yes you will still have a problem. Means you may well feed the fired case back into the chamber and pull the trigger on an empty case.

Now sniper shooting can and is anything from damn near touching to way out yonder. Also all military engagement with small arms no matter what the range are with push feed nowadays.

Nice shot on the Ele. About where I hit mine.

 

[Fastrig]

You can joke all you like. Even with all your experience, you've obviously never been on your back with a 900 pound brown bear trying to get at your throat while you are trying to get another round loaded. I doubt anyone would be just nonchalantly working the bolt nice and normal. The manufacturer paid his medical bills. After many months of rehab and surgeries, he now carries a proper CRF rifle and a sidearm. I don't understand your belief that a rifle that takes hold of the cartridge in a more secure manner is not superior for DG. Doesn't make any sense.

In that situation a rifle is, for the most part, useless. A side arm is your best bet and why so many hunters in bear country carry them religiously. You Might get a shot off with that rifle if it’s already got one in the chamber when a bear is on you but cycling for a round in that circumstance, i.e. a bear is tearing into you, is going to be damn near impossible. The side arm, and I’m not going to debate wheel gun vs. semi, is by far your best bet as you can fire multiple shots in succession with no cycling necessary, which is what you want in an emergency of that type. A bolt action hunting rifle is not designed for close range encounters, a side arm is. If you want a close range long gun then a double or a shotgun are better designs. Not discounting your comments, but why would a rifle manufacture pay the medical bills for someone that got themselves in that situation? It certainly wasn’t their firearm’s fault and doing so would set a very bad precedent for their company.

 

[Fastrig]

Just for giggles, I went a got a push feed rifle from the safe, loaded it, laid on my back with the gun upside down, and cycled through the shells as fast as I could. Guess what? They all cycled perfectly. Reloaded twice more and tried again, same result. Did the same with a control fed rifle, first two times through, same result. Last time, I screwed up and missed on a round, wasn't the rifles fault. Never even thought about control vs push feed before this thread, but it sure looks like it's more likely the human in the way and not the rifle on a missed cycle. Certainly was in my little impromptu test....both rifles performed flawlessly, I didn't. In all fairness, the push fed rifle I've used a lot, the control fed I've only used a few times, family gun that was given to me, so familiarity with the former could very well have played a part in the test.

While I laid there on my back I also tried to picture a bear or other dangerous game animal on top of me. How the hell would I bring this rifle to a point where I could shoot the animal? A 22" barrel one one and 20" on the other. I can't see how I could get a shot off in that position if I was getting yanked around by a pissed critter, and the feed type wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. I'll stick with my assertion that if an animal is on you, or within feet of you, you are much better off with a high caliber side arm than ANY rifle.

Oh, my wife thinks I'm nuts and was sitting there with a cup of coffee laughing at me during this exercise....explained the reason for the test, she just rolled her eyes and said "guys are stupid" LOL

 

[Hogpatrol]

If I had a bear on me and lived to tell about it, I'd probably figure it was me who made some sort of error. YMMV.