The old crf vs prf debate....

[Aaron N]

While this true, it does not change the fact I have stated. No amount of rationalization will change the fact as I have stated, regardless of the reason.

How can you even compare snipers shooting people a mile away who have no clue they are even a target, and working your way within 30 yards of an elephant who could flatten you in 3 seconds flat? Would you ride through the streets of Syria with only your trusty Remington as a weapon? If so, I’ll have what you’re smoking.

 

[Rule 303]

The .303 chambered SMLE was not more reliable in combat, it did however have a higher ROF.

In deed it was reliable and somewhat more so than the M98. I don't know what make you think otherwise.

 

[Ray B]

In addition to what I wrote earlier in the thread I will add: The M700 has been in production since 1862 and with regard to its extractor system, including the M721 & 722 it's been in production for about 70 years. During that time Remington has faced several challenges both legally and financially. These challenges have affected the quality of their product. Most of what I read where users are dissatisfied with the M700 are the result of relaxed quality control rather than design. As noted earlier, the M700 that I have used was made in 1962 and qualifies as a Curio & Relic, but none the less, I continue to use it for hunter education classes where it is cycled with dummy ammunition several hundred times per class and it's been doing it for 30 years. When live fire of personal rifles was allowed, it also fired several hundred rounds per year. All of this with the only problem that occurred was the one mentioned when my cousin was using it. I consider it's record of reliability equal to any CRF- but as noted by several, others have had problems - but it appears to me the problems are based on the quality of the product, not the basic design.

 

[1dirthawker]

Unless you live in Alaska, you can test your ammunition in the summer rather easily.

Eric,

since i do live in alaska, i have tried to come up with an easy solution. so a quick and easy way to get around having actual hot weather was to put my 460 weatherby ammo in the oven, bake, at 425 degrees for about 9 minutes....naah, even I'm not that stupid.

i am just gonna shoot my rifle that duplicates factory rounds, I'm sure will be fine. i was chuckling the whole time i wrote the paragraph above!

 

[Pondoro]

In deed it was reliable and somewhat more so than the M98. I don't know what make you think otherwise.

Why do you say the SMLE was/is more reliable..? I have both the original WW2 M98 and a 1918 vintage SMLE and have shot them extensively and I cannot fathom why a SMLE are more reliable...that said, if to choose between the two in war I would take the SMLE because I shoot it faster and it has a 10 round magazine..the Mauser is somewhat slower to operate...in my hands at least..

If by more reliable you mean its faster to operate...then we agree..

 

[Dwight Beagle]

I certainly wouldn’t call the model 700 unreliable based on a sample of one. When I was selling firearms we carried CRF and PF rifles. Customers had issues with both.

If I were hunting DG I would want to use a rifle with an extractor that took a bigger bite on the rim than a Model 700.

It’s also easy to see how a larger cartridge could exacerbate extraction issues, there’s more metal to get stuck.

 

[BenKK]

So where does my Sako .500J fit into this discussion? CRF or PF?

 

[Rule 303]

Why do you say the SMLE was/is more reliable..? I have both the original WW2 M98 and a 1918 vintage SMLE and have shot them extensively and I cannot fathom why a SMLE are more reliable...that said, if to choose between the two in war I would take the SMLE because I shoot it faster and it has a 10 round magazine..the Mauser is somewhat slower to operate...in my hands at least..

If by more reliable you mean its faster to operate...then we agree..

The SMLE is a rear locking bolt, as you know. This means it is easier to keep clean and if mud, dust, debris gets into the action it is quicker and easier to clean and less likely of fouling the locking lugs as on a front locker. Also the locking lug on the SMLE has room above it to squash some mud/debris into when closed.

When the action is fast and large numbers of rounds being fired the heating of the action causes different expansion rates. This causes the front locker to become stiffer/harder to operate, not so much with the rear locker. Also this pertains to the cock on opening as opposed to the cock on closing of the SMLE. Less lubrication required on the SMLE.

I have read of the M98's freezing up in the Soviet campaign but not the Mossin Negants. Just me, as I do not know, but I put this down to the lubricants the Germans used not the design unless, moisture from the air was in the action and froze the lugs to the action overnight or similar.

The Lee Metford action was around when the Boer War happened but the Brits had their arses handed to them by the bores with Mausers. The SMLE was developed after the poms researched why their rifles where not up to scratch and the Mauser were (Predominately M96 I believe). The SMLE was result of this. The SMLE front sight is bulkier than the M98's and quicker to pick up. However the M98 with a fine hold is better for distance shooting. Both have their bolt handles in about the right place, the M98 a bit further forward. That is rifle fired, trigger finger and thumb come straight up to the bolt knob to cycle the action and then come straight down onto the trigger.

Don't be misled by my forum name. That is part of a quote from a Famous ( Infamous Aussie to some). The actions around him caused the Aust Government to put in place certain safeguards for the Aust Army that served Aust and her allies well in the future wars they were involved in.

 

[IvW]

I have seen a several short strokes on M98s that fucked up.

Short stroking any bolt action rifle irrespective of action type is operator error or incompetence on the part of the hunter and has nothing to do with the action type.

 

[Scott CWO]

Say what you want to about a PRF not making a good DG rifle, but some of the most dangerous game in the world has been hunted by military and police snipers using a Remington 700 platform.

Yes that’s because it’s an inherently accurate platform due to its circular design which makes it a good choice for long range applications but has NOTHING to do with a charging brown bear, elephant, buffalo or lion at close range. Isn’t this common sense??

 

[Rule 303]

Short stroking any bolt action rifle irrespective of action type is operator error or incompetence on the part of the hunter and has nothing to do with the action type.

Show me where I said it was a design fault. Then re read what I wrote and the context it is in. You will see that I am saying even your fabled perfect CRF that should not fuck up and double feed, drop cases in the mag and jam when the operator short strokes it, can and does. At the moment you come across as nit picking trying to defend/justify the CRF.

 

[Pondoro]

The SMLE is a rear locking bolt, as you know. This means it is easier to keep clean and if mud, dust, debris gets into the action it is quicker and easier to clean and less likely of fouling the locking lugs as on a front locker. Also the locking lug on the SMLE has room above it to squash some mud/debris into when closed.

When the action is fast and large numbers of rounds being fired the heating of the action causes different expansion rates. This causes the front locker to become stiffer/harder to operate, not so much with the rear locker. Also this pertains to the cock on opening as opposed to the cock on closing of the SMLE. Less lubrication required on the SMLE.

I have read of the M98's freezing up in the Soviet campaign but not the Mossin Negants. Just me, as I do not know, but I put this down to the lubricants the Germans used not the design unless, moisture from the air was in the action and froze the lugs to the action overnight or similar.

The Lee Metford action was around when the Boer War happened but the Brits had their arses handed to them by the bores with Mausers. The SMLE was developed after the poms researched why their rifles where not up to scratch and the Mauser were (Predominately M96 I believe). The SMLE was result of this. The SMLE front sight is bulkier than the M98's and quicker to pick up. However the M98 with a fine hold is better for distance shooting. Both have their bolt handles in about the right place, the M98 a bit further forward. That is rifle fired, trigger finger and thumb come straight up to the bolt knob to cycle the action and then come straight down onto the trigger.

Don't be misled by my forum name. That is part of a quote from a Famous ( Infamous Aussie to some). The actions around him caused the Aust Government to put in place certain safeguards for the Aust Army that served Aust and her allies well in the future wars they were involved in.

The "freeze up" argument only apply when the bolt is packed with grease...in temperatures from - 20 degree C and lower, been there done that. When thin oil is applied the M98 is utter reliable..

 

[Rule 303]

The "freeze up" argument only apply when the bolt is packed with grease...in temperatures from - 20 degree C and lower, been there done that. When thin oil is applied the M98 is utter reliable..

That is what I thought. I figured that one freeze up and every solider would be making damn sure it didn't happen again, just had no direct knowledge.

 

[IvW]

Show me where I said it was a design fault. Then re read what I wrote and the context it is in. You will see that I am saying even your fabled perfect CRF that should not fuck up and double feed, drop cases in the mag and jam when the operator short strokes it, can and does. At the moment you come across as nit picking trying to defend/justify the CRF.

Short stroking and any resultant issue are as a result of incorrect use by the operator and has nothing to do with the action type.

A proper CRF that is not damaged cannot double feed. The only way it can double feed is if the extractor, the ejector or the ejector spring is damaged and it fails to eject. This is a result of damage to these parts mentioned and not due to their design.

Proper CRF actions do not even drop live unfired rounds on top of the mag let alone empty cases. Certain pushfeeds are notorious for doing this and same cannot eject unfired rounds. This is a result of bad design and not damage.

Yes some CRF actions also have issues in certain rifles but, again this is as a result of design faults. These issues are not found in proper CRF actions.

Agreed, any action can cause issues when used by incompetent persons even double rifles and falling blocks.

At the moment you come across as nit picking trying to defend/justify the CRF.

I am merely stipulating facts and certainly not nit picking. CRF is the prefered action for use on DG back up rifles by experienced professionals and not PRF actioned rifles. This is due to profen reliability over many years.

You on the other hand appear to be trashing CRF actions due to incompetent/incorrect use by somebody who is short stroking a CRF action or used a damaged CRF action.

Any action or rifle can give issues if used by somebody who does not know what they are doing.

No point in getting upset.

I own 1 PF actioned rifle(Weatherby) and have had issues with this action. I use to own another(the mentioned M 700) which I thankfully got rid of. I still own a 222 Rem also on a push feed action also with issues and it is getting sold as we speak. I now own six rifles on CRF actions and have not had single problem with any of them. After many many years of hard use.

I prefer CRF actioned rifles you can use what you prefer.

 

[Rule 303]

Short stroking and any resultant issue are as a result of incorrect use by the operator and has nothing to do with the action type.

A proper CRF that is not damaged cannot double feed. The only way it can double feed is if the extractor, the ejector or the ejector spring is damaged and it fails to eject. This is a result of damage to these parts mentioned and not due to their design.

Proper CRF actions do not even drop live unfired rounds on top of the mag let alone empty cases. Certain pushfeeds are notorious for doing this and same cannot eject unfired rounds. This is a result of bad design and not damage.

Yes some CRF actions also have issues in certain rifles but, again this is as a result of design faults. These issues are not found in proper CRF actions.

Agreed, any action can cause issues when used by incompetent persons even double rifles and falling blocks.

At the moment you come across as nit picking trying to defend/justify the CRF.

I am merely stipulating facts and certainly not nit picking. CRF is the prefered action for use on DG back up rifles by experienced professionals and not PRF actioned rifles. This is due to profen reliability over many years.

You on the other hand appear to be trashing CRF actions due to incompetent/incorrect use by somebody who is short stroking a CRF action or used a damaged CRF action.

Any action or rifle can give issues if used by somebody who does not know what they are doing.

No point in getting upset.

I own 1 PF actioned rifle(Weatherby) and have had issues with this action. I use to own another(the mentioned M 700) which I thankfully got rid of. I still own a 222 Rem also on a push feed action also with issues and it is getting sold as we speak. I now own six rifles on CRF actions and have not had single problem with any of them. After many many years of hard use.

I prefer CRF actioned rifles you can use what you prefer.

Last question first. I don't care, I like and appreciate both action types. For DG I lean towards CRF, for military , Push Feed, for general hunting any, I like most of them.

In this post you are talking about the design and I agree by design the CRF should not double feed but as I said they do. Also nowhere have I said that CRF stuff up because of design. In the real world they do fuck up period. To be clear, I say again, not every CRF fucks up, I would say very few fuck up, but they do, any firearm type does and not just because the person is incompetent, but also because the firearm is faulty.

"You on the other hand appear to be trashing CRF actions due to incompetent/incorrect use by somebody who is short stroking a CRF action or used a damaged CRF action."
Like I keep say read what I write. I am not trashing your beloved CRF. I am merely pointing out that they do stuff up and as so much bull dust is written about how infallible they are, when it simply is not true. Note! that the action may not be damaged as you say by could be faulty due to manufacture, worn and a part need replacing. Now you canned some PF for the very same reason if memory serves.

"Short stroking and any resultant issue are as a result of incorrect use by the operator and has nothing to do with the action type."
Show me where I have said short stroking is because of action design. Please if you are going to have a shot at me read what I write. Because when you write this type of garbage and imply I said it, you really do yourself a disservice.

 

[Red Leg]

Say what you want to about a PRF not making a good DG rifle, but some of the most dangerous game in the world has been hunted by military and police snipers using a Remington 700 platform.

The Mauser 98 was the evolutionary final step of a series of designs created as combat rifles. The Remington 700 in sniper form is a recreational rifle adopted to military use. We adopted them because they were accurate, in production, and thus unit cost was low. They are a specialized tool, not a battle rifle design.

Most American hunting has more in common with the former rather than the latter. The ubiquitous deer stand comes to mind. Push feed is not an issue. In an environment where dust is an issue day after day, something created to function reliably in trench warfare seems a pretty good choice.

 

[Iwannahunt]

I would like to ask one question.

Controlled feed actions:
Do they count only as mauser 98 type actions (and clones) with long mauser extractor, or do you guys could consider some other types as well?

For example, sako 85 is advertised as CRF, and in my opinion is mix between CRF and PRF?

So what do you guys consider a CRF, apart of maser 98 clones? Are there any other non-98 examples, or no other types at all?

Did you get the information from this thread that you need or are you still in need of info.?

 

[Red Leg]

The SMLE is a rear locking bolt, as you know. This means it is easier to keep clean and if mud, dust, debris gets into the action it is quicker and easier to clean and less likely of fouling the locking lugs as on a front locker. Also the locking lug on the SMLE has room above it to squash some mud/debris into when closed.

When the action is fast and large numbers of rounds being fired the heating of the action causes different expansion rates. This causes the front locker to become stiffer/harder to operate, not so much with the rear locker. Also this pertains to the cock on opening as opposed to the cock on closing of the SMLE. Less lubrication required on the SMLE.

I have read of the M98's freezing up in the Soviet campaign but not the Mossin Negants. Just me, as I do not know, but I put this down to the lubricants the Germans used not the design unless, moisture from the air was in the action and froze the lugs to the action overnight or similar.

The Lee Metford action was around when the Boer War happened but the Brits had their arses handed to them by the bores with Mausers. The SMLE was developed after the poms researched why their rifles where not up to scratch and the Mauser were (Predominately M96 I believe). The SMLE was result of this. The SMLE front sight is bulkier than the M98's and quicker to pick up. However the M98 with a fine hold is better for distance shooting. Both have their bolt handles in about the right place, the M98 a bit further forward. That is rifle fired, trigger finger and thumb come straight up to the bolt knob to cycle the action and then come straight down onto the trigger.

Don't be misled by my forum name. That is part of a quote from a Famous ( Infamous Aussie to some). The actions around him caused the Aust Government to put in place certain safeguards for the Aust Army that served Aust and her allies well in the future wars they were involved in.

Lol. Just noticed. Where else could we have a discussion between a South African PH (IvW i truly hope you are a Boer and not a Brit) and an Aussie quoting Breaker Morant.

Got to love the Brits. It took true nuance to execute Morant for battlefield excesses while systematically killing 50,000 or so women and children in concentration camps.

 

[Dwight Beagle]

I own 1 PF actioned rifle(Weatherby) and have had issues with this action. I use to own another(the mentioned M 700) which I thankfully got rid of. I still own a 222 Rem also on a push feed action also with issues and it is getting sold as we speak. I now own six rifles on CRF actions and have not had single problem with any of them. After many many years of hard use.

I understand the argument for CRF on DG and agree. If I ever hunt DG a CRF rifle will be in my hands. There are many many people with PF actions who’ve never had an issue yet you own or have owned three with issues. It gives one pause.

 

[Iwannahunt]

Did you get the information from this thread that you need or are you still in need of info.?

Technically I think CRF would be any action that very positively mechanically grabbed/controlled the round as soon as it is fed from the magazine by, the extraction grove in the cartridge case. A Sako extractor wouldn't qualify, but that doesn't mean I have anything against them or other push feed rifles, I'm staying out of this. I have both, prefer CRF for most but not all bolt action "work" but everything could/can fail in one way or another. I think some of the tension is because CRF is more expensive to manufacture and therefore it must be better, that's true some? or most? of the time, maybe. This topic has been known to cause great tension for eons. An analogy would be, Joe drives a Ford for 20 years has no major issues and is very happy. Ted, a new acquaintance of Joe tells Joe that his Chevy is, well... just better. And the fireworks begin.

Hope I'm not telling you something you already figured out, JP