The old crf vs prf debate....

[MS Hitman]

We are not talking sniping here but rather hunting which may include DG.

The Remington Model 700 is probably one of the worse platforms to use as a DG rifle or even a African PG rifle.

That must be why so many use it.

 

[IvW]

That must be why so many use it.

Most certainly not on DG as a back up rifle that I can assure you.

 

[Dwight Beagle]

The Remington Model 700 is probably one of the worse platforms to use as a DG rifle or even a African PG rifle.

I’m curious as to why you think it’s one of the worst platforms for PG too.

 

[MS Hitman]

I’m curious as to why you think it’s one of the worst platforms for PG too.

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Eric Anderson]

Inquiring minds want to know.

I’ll take a stab at this.

There is nothing wrong with a properly made Remington 700 for plains game.
Good luck finding one properly made in the last decade. The only rifle I never regret selling was a Remington 700 chambered in 30-06. It would print cloverleafs at 100 yards, if you could get it to cycle. The bolt was that rough, and out of tolerance. I have handled several on store racks since then. All were that bad or worse.
When wartime manufacturing quality (midway 1903A3) puts you to absolute shame, you have a problem.

 

[Ray B]

Appears our opinions are convoluted because the premises of those opinions are based on different criteria. A quick review of the above comments show the basis to be 1. basic design, 2. primary goals of design, 3. care/precision in manufacture. The last basis is not a function of design but rather the skill level of the machinists, the time allowed and the acceptable level of precision in manufacture. The weaponry needs of a designated marksman differ from those of a pointman of a patrol. Similarly, armies are funded by governments subject to budgets. There was a joke about comments made by astronauts on the early flights into space- essentially one says to the other: We are sitting on a rocket about to shoot us into space and every part of the rocket was supplied by the lowest bidder. Whereas governments that supply the troops with weaponry have a bottom-line on costs, the cost of a rifle to someone on safari or a DG PF is only a small portion of their budget.

So for the conclusions to be valid, please focus on how this or that design facilitates the needs of the users, rather than deviating into the other issues of workmanship and alternate uses.

 

[MS Hitman]

I said nor implied anything with regards to machining. I am merely stating the most dangerous game on Earth is typically hunted with push feed rifles.

 

[Eric Anderson]

I said nor implied anything with regards to machining. I am merely stating the most dangerous game on Earth is typically hunted with push feed rifles.

With the exception of a almost statistically irrelevant about of bolt guns, all push feed military rifles are semiautomatic or automatic. That is because CRF actions are not suitable for the rates of fire/cycling. It simply takes to long to push a round up under the claw when you need to do it 800 times a minute.
Also, has fed semi auto/auto rifles can push the round into the chamber than gravity can pull it out when shooting in positions sometimes found in combat.
When bolt actions were standard infantry rifles CRF was the order of the day.

The reason the military uses push feed for bolt action rifles is because that is what Remington made after the Springfield 1903A4’s were starting to be retired.

 

[MS Hitman]

While this true, it does not change the fact I have stated. No amount of rationalization will change the fact as I have stated, regardless of the reason.

With the exception of a almost statistically irrelevant about of bolt guns, all push feed military rifles are semiautomatic or automatic. That is because CRF actions are not suitable for the rates of fire/cycling. It simply takes to long to push a round up under the claw when you need to do it 800 times a minute.
Also, has fed semi auto/auto rifles can push the round into the chamber than gravity can pull it out when shooting in positions sometimes found in combat.
When bolt actions were standard infantry rifles CRF was the order of the day.

The reason the military uses push feed for bolt action rifles is because that is what Remington made after the Springfield 1903A4’s were starting to be retired.[/QUO

 

[BenKK]

Is my Sako Brown Bear .500 Jeffery a push-feed or crf? It seems to work fine.

Also, my Dad had a wonderful adventure hunting plainsgame in the Eastern Cape with his Remington Sendero 7mm STW. Such a special time, that safari with my brother and Dad. The Old Man shot better than his boys back then. Never had any problems with his rifle, just made some marvellous memories.

 

[IvW]

Inquiring minds want to know.

When I started my professional career the first DG rifle I bought was a Remington Model 700 classic in 375 H&H. The straight classic stock looked good. The rifle was too light for the caliber and recoil was not pleasant. The mag only held 3 cartridges.

I experienced some misfires with this rifle indicating some issue with the bolt/firing pin. This could never be resolved. Then it would fire and every now and again it would not. The same round fired through a different rifle would fire no problem.

I could never get the bolt smooth it always seemed sticky.

Reloading it at speed from the top into the mag was also not done easily. If not done exactly right they would pop out again. Slow to reload. Double stacking or double feeding also occurred.

The safety had to be kept clean, any small debris would cause it to not move properly.

Others experienced same issues with 375 H&H and 416 Remington in the M700.

Broken extractor claws where not uncommon.

Cracked stock.

I got rid of this piece of junk after the first season.

I bought a ZKK 602 action(with pop up peep sight), found a original classic stock, fitted a 375 H&H barrel and never looked back. This rifle never gave me any issues even after many years(27) of hard service. I still own this rifle and use it and many clients have done the same.

I know own 3 DG rifle on the same action and have never experienced a single issue with either of them.

Anybody can use what they want but the Rem m700 is a poorly put together and constructed rifle. The bigger the calibers get the bigger the problems become.

I need a rifle that is 110% reliable everytime I use it be it for DG or PG, unfortunately the Rem m700 falls far short.

The argument that police and the military use them as platforms for sniping purposes holds no water and has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the system when compared to DG hunting or even PG hunting.
Yes they probably can be worked into very accurate rifles for long range application be it sniping or pg hunting, however reliable and 110% they are far from when used under short range charge situations in bigger calibers.

How you conclude(that is my understanding of your statement) that if they are good enough for the US forces they are good enough for DG hunting is beyond my experience.

If you plan on hunting DG find a reliable rifle, the m700 is not.

I will be most surprised if there is any experienced DG PH on this forum that uses a Remington M700 in whatever caliber as a back up rifle.

Most if not all will be using either a Mauser/or Mauser type actioned or ZKK 602 or CZ actioned rifle or a good double.

A Remington M700 is what it is but it is not a DG rifle.

 

[Pondoro]

If you people knew how much research, science, cut & try and not to mention time and money Peter Paul Mauser spent to produce a state of the art foolproof combat rifle for the german infantry we would not have this debate..

He spent YEARS perfecting his rifle while funded by the german army..

 

[Rule 303]

IvW if you do need this "I need a rifle that is 110% reliable everytime I use it be it for DG or PG, unfortunately the Rem m700 falls far short." then you would not have a rifle as it does not exist. As I said earlier for the first 20 years of my shooting life I would not touch a CRF because of all the problems I or my friends and others experienced with them.

Your experience with the Rem 700 is a complete 180 degrees from mine, so I would beg to differ.

Re M98 being a "state of the art combat rifle" again this is bull dust. The SMLE and some say the Carcano were more reliable in combat than the M98. The M98 makes a far better sporting rifle than the others but not a combat rifle. If you want me to expand on the reasons, happy to do so.

 

[Pondoro]

Rule 303...ask yourself this question:

Why do all the premium british gunmakers like Holland&Holland, Purdey, Westley Richards, etc. use Mauser M98, Magnum Mauser or other derivative mauser actions when buliding bolt rifles for DG hunting..?

 

[IvW]

IvW if you do need this "I need a rifle that is 110% reliable everytime I use it be it for DG or PG, unfortunately the Rem m700 falls far short." then you would not have a rifle as it does not exist. As I said earlier for the first 20 years of my shooting life I would not touch a CRF because of all the problems I or my friends and others experienced with them.

Your experience with the Rem 700 is a complete 180 degrees from mine, so I would beg to differ.

Re M98 being a "state of the art combat rifle" again this is bull dust. The SMLE and some say the Carcano were more reliable in combat than the M98. The M98 makes a far better sporting rifle than the others but not a combat rifle. If you want me to expand on the reasons, happy to do so.

I have never had a single issue with any of my ZKK 602 actioned DG backup rifles 110 % reliability in the last 28 years. I have stopped many DG in some very hair raising circumstances with the utmost satisfaction.

The Rem M700 was a headache not only for me but for many I saw used in my presence. A very poor DG rifle.

How many elephant, buffalo, lion and rhino have you stopped without any issues in a caliber 375 H&H or bigger with your Remington M700?

 

[Nyati]

I use a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle in .243 to hunt Roedeer, and it had to be tuned by a gunsmith before it would chamber/eject properly.

It works fine now, very accurate, with a crisp trigger, but I would never use that platform for DG . Give me a Heym anytime.

 

[Rule 303]

Rule 303...ask yourself this question:

Why do all the premium british gunmakers like Holland&Holland, Purdey, Westley Richards, etc. use Mauser M98, Magnum Mauser or other derivative mauser actions when buliding bolt rifles for DG hunting..?

Please read what I write. Show me where I have said the M98 is not a good sporting or DG rifle?

IvW, I do not doubt what you say in personal experience. What I am saying is no matter what make/type of rifle you have-not your individual rifle- none are fool proof. The only issue I have ever had with my first M700 - still have it- was a short stroke on one occasion. I have seen a several short strokes on M98s that fucked up. They, in theory should not. I have had a M700 that would not shoot for shite but have never had one that failed to extract or eject. I have seen some that do. I have never seen or read of an M700 or Ruger 77 where the action-not the barrel- has let go. I have seen/read about M98, Howa,s, Browning's, Sako's and others that have. I have seen/read of Sako type extractors failing. In the early days of 416Rem mag they were loaded hot and I have heard of extractors pulling through the rim of the case. This is certainly where you want the massive claw extractor. I have said before that for DG I now-since I over came my serious doubts about the m98 action- prefer the M98 action for DG.

My response in relation to my M700 experience being 180 degrees to yours was in relation to PG rifle calibres as I have one in 375H&H - not a problem with it - not in the larger calibres.

So in short any make/type of rifle can and do fail at times.
If you want to have a go at me please do but remember what I have written in the past before repeating what you have said to me before.

 

[Eric Anderson]

IvW if you do need this "I need a rifle that is 110% reliable everytime I use it be it for DG or PG, unfortunately the Rem m700 falls far short." then you would not have a rifle as it does not exist. As I said earlier for the first 20 years of my shooting life I would not touch a CRF because of all the problems I or my friends and others experienced with them.

Your experience with the Rem 700 is a complete 180 degrees from mine, so I would beg to differ.

Re M98 being a "state of the art combat rifle" again this is bull dust. The SMLE and some say the Carcano were more reliable in combat than the M98. The M98 makes a far better sporting rifle than the others but not a combat rifle. If you want me to expand on the reasons, happy to do so.

The .303 chambered SMLE was not more reliable in combat, it did however have a higher ROF.

 

[Rob404]

We are not talking sniping here but rather hunting which may include DG.

The Remington Model 700 is probably one of the worse platforms to use as a DG rifle or even a African PG rifle.

Wow, I wonder if I can get some one take My Rem 35Whelen off my hands

 

[Eric Anderson]

While this true, it does not change the fact I have stated. No amount of rationalization will change the fact as I have stated, regardless of the reason.

While technically correct, that is what I call a lawyer truth. Technically true, but intentionally misleading.
If you could cycle a push feed at even 450 rpm (M2 HB cyclic rate) your argument might hold water...

Don't get me wrong, I own several push feed rifles, and will hunt anything on earth in within the capabilities of a 30-06 with mine. I have that much confidence in my rifle. I am not going to make the argument that the push feed system is superior because the M-16 I used to carry used it though.
The M-16 used a push feed because CRF is inherently unsuitable for high rates of fire.