The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

[IvW]

But IvW, in my thread " Buckshot and leopard : fact or fiction ? " another member posted a video of leopards being hunted from a Jeep with semi auto shotguns and you had commented that the hunt was illegal because semi autos weren't allowed in Africa ?
PS : Do you ever use your poor man's Double with shot for bird hunting ?

You read but do not take in the facts of what is stated.

Semi automatics are illegal for use in Botswana which is only a small part of Africa. Nowhere is it stated that they are illegal in all of Africa.

PS: Yes but rarely, I do for partridge/francolin over dogs as chokes are of no consequence is this situation and I then refrain from taking shots past my limit

 

[IvW]

@kurpfalzjäger

Selection of cartridges - calibers, is not always based on cartridge and calibers performance (which one is better), but also with two other things to consider:

1) price of ammunition, and availability of ammunition in local shops
2) availability and price of rifles in certain calibers.

So who ever is limited in budget and market-offer options , will have to look in direction of 458 wm, for instance.


So, basic question is, from all calibers good enough in DG performance:
- what is available, and what is economic?
- Not what is better or the best.

That is the main point of view when considering 458 wm caliber.

And a bad point of view it is. Get something else....

You should choose what has a proven track record when hunting DG not what is "economic", this may get you or somebody in the hunting group killed, simple as that...

You should rather definitely choose what is better or the best..

Same goes for ammunition such as Hornady, too many people use it on DG because it is cheap....what a "penny wise pound foolish" idea of deciding what bullets to use....spend a bit more and know what you are using is up to the task.

You want to hunt dangerous game use proven rifles, proven calibers and most definitely proven ammunition...the 458WM does not make the cut in my book especially not if chosen due to cost.

 

[mark-hunter]

@IvW
Coming from you, thats a valid point!
Well noted!

Options reduced down to 375 H&H, that would be acceptable?

 

[grand veneur]

Unfortunately , I don't know how far people are honest with themselves , when they say that the 458 Win Mag is a good cartridge for hunting DG. Until now no one told me that he uses this cartridge because nothing else is available or can afford. Such considerations should not normally concern a client. Why this cartridge is then chosen and other are discredited , i don't know.

We have nowadays as client enough rifles and cartridges available so that we can choose something suitable , without compromises , for the DG hunting.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

@IvW
Coming from you, thats a valid point!
Well noted!

Options reduced down to 375 H&H, that would be acceptable?

Mark Hunter
I am not IvW , so our experience may vary. However , my view is this :
With perhaps the exception of a big bull elephant , l can say with certainty that you will never find a .375 Holland and Holland magnum lacking for any dangerous animal. Also take this into consideration . As you are the client and not the professional hunter . This means that you typically are not expected to stop charges or pursue wounded animals. The professional will get you in the correct position for the picked shot. With this in mind , the .375 Holland and Holland magnum will serve you well , l should think.
The forum member Bull Hunter , once told me that in some places in Africa , a 9.3 millimeter mauser is permissible as the legal minimum for dangerous animals like buffaloes . If this is true , then you can keep that as an option too , although l find the 14 grain heavier weight of the .375 bore bullet to be decidedly advantageous.
75 % of my clients used to bring a .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre rifle to India and they were never let down. I am biased a little towards this cartridge.

 

[Foxi]

Well, because you like to chase a phantom.
Nobody here oh so experienced has put himself here and clearly explained, that he has lost with a good shot and appropriate distance an elephant with the .458.
Or have I read something over ?

What would you answer my Phs and controller friends from Zimbabwe, if they tell you in unison, each of us has already shot three-figured elephants with the .458 in the last 30 years and was satisfied. Are no empirical values ?
But that can't be because it can't be ?

I am now out of the discussion

 

[IvW]

Well, because you like to chase a phantom.
Nobody here oh so experienced has put himself here and clearly explained, that he has lost with a good shot and appropriate distance an elephant with the .458.
Or have I read something over ?

What would you answer my Phs and controller friends from Zimbabwe, if they tell you in unison, each of us has already shot a cheeky elephant with the .458 in the last 30 years and was satisfied. Are no empirical values ?
But that can't be because it can't be ?

I am now out of the discussion

Lets not forget, that most of these professionals particularly from Zim had no option, the 458 WM was all they had and they were forced to use it. They made it work...

Does that make it a better or the best DG cartridge to use with what is freely available today? Certainly not.....If that was the case all current professionals would use it and not 458 Lott, 500 Jeff, 500 NE, 470 NE etc...

 

[IvW]

@IvW
Coming from you, thats a valid point!
Well noted!

Options reduced down to 375 H&H, that would be acceptable?

Well there is big difference between a clients rifle needs and that of a PH.

For a client a 375 H&H with the correct bullet would be acceptable for all of the big 5. Having said that the 400's are a better option for DG only. I would recommend 450/400 3", 416 Rigby and 404 Jeff. As long as he is competent with it and most important can place the first shot rather than worry about fire power and back up shots.

For elephant 375 H&H is ok for client or the mentioned 400's and if the client is competent anything up to the 500's.

For a PH, 375 H&H is good for up to and including leopard and lioness. For Lion and buffalo 404 or 416 Rigby (not RM).
In 458 only the 450 Rigby will make the cut(for me) as it fits my DG cartridge criteria. In doubles any of the 458 or 470 will do.

For elephant 500 Jeff above the 505 Gibbs and in double 500 NE.

My preference anyway....

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I take it you don’t like belts @IvW

 

[Jaws]

Three of the best calibers ever invented and most widely used by professionals and visiting hunters alike yet you do not like them? Very strange....

Recoil seems to be the main factor


Again recoil....

IvW, your assumption wrt recoil or rather lack there of as my only preference to certain calibers is incorrect. But please enlighten me with what it is you trying to get at.

For good orders sake, I did not reprobate any of those calibers, I stated that they don't appeal to me.
But I find it strange, that one can't appreciate the matter of personal preference for one thing over another.

Back to the .458WM, and my apologies to the OP that this thread has ventured OT already. I do not claim the .458WM to be the perfect caliber, and surely there cant be one, but I do state it is capable of being a DG caliber and it has been proven, unless all the hunters whom have killed DG & found it more than adequate under various circumstances to be absolute liars or delusional.
It is quite unfortunate that these experienced hunters are out in the field mostly & don't have the luxury of computers & internet access to share their views on this great forum.

Lastly, IvW, I appreciate your sincere concern for my safety. But I'll manage just fine thanks

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

IvW, your assumption wrt recoil or rather lack there of as my only preference to certain calibers is incorrect. But please enlighten me with what it is you trying to get at.

For good orders sake, I did not reprobate any of those calibers, I stated that they don't appeal to me.
But I find it strange, that one can't appreciate the matter of personal preference for one thing over another.

Back to the .458WM, and my apologies to the OP that this thread has ventured OT already. I do not claim the .458WM to be the perfect caliber, and surely there cant be one, but I do state it is capable of being a DG caliber and it has been proven, unless all the hunters whom have killed DG & found it more than adequate under various circumstances to be absolute liars or delusional.
It is quite unfortunate that these experienced hunters are out in the field mostly & don't have the luxury of computers & internet access to share their views on this great forum.

Lastly, IvW, I appreciate your sincere concern for my safety. But I'll manage just fine thanks

Jaws
No apology necessary. Any discussion is enlightening .

 

[Jeffrey]

Richard Harland in Zimbabwe (4 figure elephant kills and the PH for the largest elephant ever hunted in Zim) in his book Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant recommends the rifle he used for most of his Tsetse Fly corridor culling. It is a four shot rotary magazine Mannlicher (PUSH FEED!!!) in 458 Win Mag. Harland said for serious Elephant work, it could hardly be improved upon. His apprentice, Barry Duckworth (also a prolific and legendary PH in Zim who retired just this year) also recommends the rifle/chambering set up, having said on more than one occasion "I'd be dead if I had a double." In his book, Harland also has an appendix chapter at the end devoted SPECIFICALLY to the 458 Win Mag and how uniquely great a chambering it is - especially for elephant.

All that being said, I honestly think the Lott is an improvement if for nothing else than reduced pressure. While a Lott is going to be my next center fire rifle purchase, MANY people I respect are using fifties.

For clients, consider the awesome new 350 grain 375 bullets out now, or maybe a 404 Jeffery for coolness points. For PAC or PHing, I'd recommend the biggest damn thing you can shoot straight that holds the most cartridges in the magazine

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Richard Harland in Zimbabwe (4 figure elephant kills and the PH for the largest elephant ever hunted in Zim) in his book Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant recommends the rifle he used for most of his Tsetse Fly corridor culling. It is a four shot rotary magazine Mannlicher (PUSH FEED!!!) in 458 Win Mag. Harland said for serious Elephant work, it could hardly be improved upon. His apprentice, Barry Duckworth (also a prolific and legendary PH in Zim who retired just this year) also recommends the rifle/chambering set up, having said on more than one occasion "I'd be dead if I had a double." In his book, Harland also has an appendix chapter at the end devoted SPECIFICALLY to the 458 Win Mag and how uniquely great a chambering it is - especially for elephant.

All that being said, I honestly think the Lott is an improvement if for nothing else than reduced pressure. While a Lott is going to be my next center fire rifle purchase, MANY people I respect are using fifties.

For clients, consider the awesome new 350 grain 375 bullets out now, or maybe a 404 Jeffery for coolness points. For PAC or PHing, I'd recommend the biggest damn thing you can shoot straight that holds the most cartridges in the magazine

Jeffrey
That is a most educational comment .
Indeed , many of my clients were very successful with the .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifles for Royal Bengal tigers and Gaur bisons .
However , fellow forum member , Hoss Delgado showed me an article about the mentioned gentleman ( written by Mr. Harland himself ) where he states that he prefers a rifle calibre called a .505 Gibbs over the .458 Winchester magnum calibre . Perhaps , Hoss can provide you with the article ?
I always thought that mannlicher rifles had the mauser type extracting claw device , however , l see that l am mistaken . It is always a pleasure to be corrected .

 

[Jeffrey]

Mr. Rahman,

Thank you for your reply and your AWESOME articles here on AH. You should REALLY consider getting an editor and writing a book. It would be an instant classic. Can someone here connect this gentleman with the Safari Press or a similar publisher?

You are 100% correct in that Mr. Harland has very high regard for the 505 Gibbs, and would include him in my list of the "many people I respect (that) are using fifties." Mr. Harland's book came out in 2005, when was that magazine article published? Either way, I don't think his appreciation of the 505 Gibbs necessarily made him think the 458WM a bad chambering. I wish Mr. Harland had an AH account and could discuss the matter with us here, ditto Mr. Duckworth. I was offered the opportunity to meet Mr. Harland in Harare once, but the logistics were tough and didn't pan out.

 

[Alexandro Faria]

"For clients, consider the awesome new 350 grain 375 bullets"

Interesting you say this (have to agree) and I have to agree with your statement regarding FA choice for PH's as well. Stewart projectiles here in SA make/made a 400gr projectile for the various 375's and I think it'll be a champion.

In the end, as long as a FA works well and you match your projectile to the situation, it's largely details and personal preference from there. When it comes down to it, no one can tell you what you like best and what you feel comfortable with and anyone who hunts enough knows how important it is to have faith in your gear.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Mr. Rahman,

Thank you for your reply and your AWESOME articles here on AH. You should REALLY consider getting an editor and writing a book. It would be an instant classic. Can someone here connect this gentleman with the Safari Press or a similar publisher?

You are 100% correct in that Mr. Harland has very high regard for the 505 Gibbs, and would include him in my list of the "many people I respect (that) are using fifties." Mr. Harland's book came out in 2005, when was that magazine article published? Either way, I don't think his appreciation of the 505 Gibbs necessarily made him think the 458WM a bad chambering. I wish Mr. Harland had an AH account and could discuss the matter with us here, ditto Mr. Duckworth. I was offered the opportunity to meet Mr. Harland in Harare once, but the logistics were tough and didn't pan out.

Jeffrey
You will forgive me , as l have no experience with the .505 Gibbs cartridge. During my time as a professional Shikari in Darjeeling , India from 1962 to 1970 , the three largest cartridges brought by clients were the :
9.3 millimeter mauser
.375 Austrian Mannlicher ( only one client )
.375 Holland and Holland magnum
.400 Nitro Express ( only one client )
.458 Winchester magnum .
Hoss will be able to give you more information about the article , as l have only read it once .
Regarding the .458 Winchester magnum , you are very correct . I would have no issues guiding a client who came for Shikar armed with one , to Darjeeling .

@Hoss Delgado , please provide Mr. Jeffery with the article written by Mr. Harland which you showed me last Monday .

 

[Jeffrey]

So I found this and am reading it now:http://www.huntnetwork.net/modules/wfsection/html/505magnum.pdf

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

So I found this and am reading it now:http://www.huntnetwork.net/modules/wfsection/html/505magnum.pdf

Jeffrey
Why yes. That is the one . He does seem to have a healthy respect for the .458 Winchester magnum calibre , however even if he prefers the .505 Gibbs cartridge a little bit more .

 

[Wyatt Smith]

So I found this and am reading it now:http://www.huntnetwork.net/modules/wfsection/html/505magnum.pdf

I enjoyed that, thanks!

 

[mark-hunter]

Qouted: It is a four shot rotary magazine Mannlicher (PUSH FEED!!!) in 458 Win Mag.

This is something new!
Can anybody explain what are the benefits of rotary magazine in DG rifle?