The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

[IvW]

I take it you don’t like belts @IvW

No not on a dedicated DG rifle

 

[IvW]

IvW, your assumption wrt recoil or rather lack there of as my only preference to certain calibers is incorrect. But please enlighten me with what it is you trying to get at.

For good orders sake, I did not reprobate any of those calibers, I stated that they don't appeal to me.
But I find it strange, that one can't appreciate the matter of personal preference for one thing over another.

Back to the .458WM, and my apologies to the OP that this thread has ventured OT already. I do not claim the .458WM to be the perfect caliber, and surely there cant be one, but I do state it is capable of being a DG caliber and it has been proven, unless all the hunters whom have killed DG & found it more than adequate under various circumstances to be absolute liars or delusional.
It is quite unfortunate that these experienced hunters are out in the field mostly & don't have the luxury of computers & internet access to share their views on this great forum.

Lastly, IvW, I appreciate your sincere concern for my safety. But I'll manage just fine thanks

I just find it strange that somebody would not like three of the best, widely used and very successful cartridges ever made. I do like the ones you like except for the 458WM of course.

As stated most of the ones who used the 458 WM for PAC work had no choice and as mentioned had no option but to use them. They had many years experience and many elephants to their credit, they also new exactly where to shoot elephants. Is this comparable to somebody with no elephant experience? Does this then make iot a good choice for a DG rifle/cartridge for a first time or a visiting hunter? In my opinion definitely not.

As for push feed actions, widely recognized as not being the best choice for a DG rifle with good reason. As for the Musgrave mod 90 push feed action, very strong and accurate however the extractor is a major drawback for a DG rifle, with enough use it will fail especially in 458 WM caliber. I sincerely hope it does not fail on your elephant hunt.

Of course each have their own opinion and are entitled to their own choice of rifle and caliber. I have seen to many issues with this caliber and dislike it, just as you believe it is adequate for DG.

Threads would be boring if we all agreed on points raised, I have merely shared mine and again anybody reading it can do what they like with the information, disagree or agree.

I strongly believe the 458WM is not a good choice for a hunter to use as a DG rifle as there are many better choices.

 

[IvW]

Richard Harland in Zimbabwe (4 figure elephant kills and the PH for the largest elephant ever hunted in Zim) in his book Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant recommends the rifle he used for most of his Tsetse Fly corridor culling. It is a four shot rotary magazine Mannlicher (PUSH FEED!!!) in 458 Win Mag. Harland said for serious Elephant work, it could hardly be improved upon. His apprentice, Barry Duckworth (also a prolific and legendary PH in Zim who retired just this year) also recommends the rifle/chambering set up, having said on more than one occasion "I'd be dead if I had a double." In his book, Harland also has an appendix chapter at the end devoted SPECIFICALLY to the 458 Win Mag and how uniquely great a chambering it is - especially for elephant.

All that being said, I honestly think the Lott is an improvement if for nothing else than reduced pressure. While a Lott is going to be my next center fire rifle purchase, MANY people I respect are using fifties.

For clients, consider the awesome new 350 grain 375 bullets out now, or maybe a 404 Jeffery for coolness points. For PAC or PHing, I'd recommend the biggest damn thing you can shoot straight that holds the most cartridges in the magazine

Yes correct. However he had a choice of 3 rifles at the time. A 375 H&H with dodgy ammunition, the mentioned 458 WM with new ammunition and a double 450 by Rigby which had a butchered and battered stock.

Which would you choose?

Tsuro his tracker used the double Rigby as back up and dispatched many of the elephants first shot by Richard.

Again for a professional culling elephants on a daily basis yes you could make it work but again in my opinion it is still not a good choice for a current hunter to use as there are so many more better choices away.

Yes the 458 Lott is a major improvement over the 458Wm and the great 350 gr bullets now available for the 375 H&H puts it in a much more favorable position as a DG rifle, however still lacks a bit as a stopping rifle.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Qouted: It is a four shot rotary magazine Mannlicher (PUSH FEED!!!) in 458 Win Mag.

This is something new!
Can anybody explain what are the benefits of rotary magazine in DG rifle?

Mark Hunter
Do you remember that l once mentioned that a client brought a Hi Power model rifle from Browning in .458 Winchester magnum cartridge ? And that after firing the first shot , the trap door hatch in the bottom swung open and the client's cartridges fell out ?
In a Mannlicher rifle , with a rotating magazine , each cartridge is held individually . What that means , is that this problem can never occur. Also , jamming is much less likely , as each cartridge is held individually.
There is a disadvantage , however . You cannot convert the fire arm to accomodate a larger calibre ( what you gentlemen call " re-chambering ) .

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Yes correct. However he had a choice of 3 rifles at the time. A 375 H&H with dodgy ammunition, the mentioned 458 WM with new ammunition and a double 450 by Rigby which had a butchered and battered stock.

Which would you choose?

Tsuro his tracker used the double Rigby as back up and dispatched many of the elephants first shot by Richard.

Again for a professional culling elephants on a daily basis yes you could make it work but again in my opinion it is still not a good choice for a current hunter to use as there are so many more better choices away.

Yes the 458 Lott is a major improvement over the 458Wm and the great 350 gr bullets now available for the 375 H&H puts it in a much more favorable position as a DG rifle, however still lacks a bit as a stopping rifle.

IvW
I must ask a naive question ( since l know so little about Africa ) . In one of Hoss Delgado's threads , you mentioned a gentleman named Mr. La Grange who liked to use a rifle in .458 Winchester magnum calibre loaded with 500 grain Hornady metal envelope bullets to cull large amounts of elephants. Was his choice , also based on availability alone ?
Also , l may be very mistaken , but the photograph you had shown of this gentleman would indicate that he was using a double barrel rifle in the .458 Winchester magnum calibre.

 

[mark-hunter]

Dear Mr Rahman, thanks for comments! Appreciated!

 

[grand veneur]

So I found this and am reading it now:http://www.huntnetwork.net/modules/wfsection/html/505magnum.pdf

I often wished I had owned this rifle back in the days when much of my time had been spent hunting bulls in tsetse fly corridors, tribal areas, cattle ranches, sugar farms, or just for the ivory. This is not to say the .458s I used were ever unsatisfact.

He quickly corrects himself towards the end !

But that's what a well-known European (spanish) elephant hunter has also said after speaking of the cartridge 500 Jeffery. But he has never had a great opinion of the cartridge 458 Win Mag.

 

[grand veneur]

Qouted: It is a four shot rotary magazine Mannlicher (PUSH FEED!!!) in 458 Win Mag.

This is something new!
Can anybody explain what are the benefits of rotary magazine in DG rifle?

None , on the contrary , the magazine of a MS rifle is very weak for heavy cartridges.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

None , on the contrary , the magazine of a MS rifle is very weak for heavy cartridges.

Kurpfalzjager
This is something l never thought of. Could you elaborate , please ?
There is so much to learn here.

 

[grand veneur]

It is up to the metal spring of the system that has to press the follower of the rotary magazine up from the side.

In the Mauser magazine , the spring pushes the follower from below , which is much more efficient to lift 3 to 4 heavy cartridges.

As far as I know , you only have the cartridge 458 Win Mag as DG cartridge built in a MS action.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

It is up to the metal spring of the system that has to press the follower of the rotary magazine up from the side.

In the Mauser magazine , the spring pushes the follower from below , which is much more efficient to lift 3 to 4 heavy cartridges.

As far as I know , you only have the cartridge 458 Win Mag built in a MS action.

Kurpfalzjager
Thank you so much for your explanation.
On a related subject , one of my clients did have a Mannlicher rifle , calibrated for the .375 Austrian Mannlicher cartridge ( but it is a smaller calibre than the .375 Holland and Holland magnum )

 

[grand veneur]

That was the 9,5x57mm Mannlicher-Schönauer cartridge also called 375 Rimless NE , still in service but not as DG cartridge.

 

[HWL]

Qouted: It is a four shot rotary magazine Mannlicher (PUSH FEED!!!) in 458 Win Mag.

The Steyr-Mannlicher is a push feed, but not the Mannlicher-Schoenauer!

In the magazine oft the Mannlicher-Schoenauer, the cartridge is hold by claw from the beginning of the loading process to the ejection of the empty case..

Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1905 in 9x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer

The Mannlicher-Schoenauer (I love so much ) was also made for the "loathed by many .458" and the 9,3x64 Brenneke.

HWL

 

[HWL]

None , on the contrary , the magazine of a MS rifle is very weak for heavy cartridges.

This is completely wrong! ...sorry!

The Steyr-Mannlicher plastics rotary magazine was marginal, at it's best.

But the "made from steel" Rotary Magazine of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer was (and still is!) one of the finest, strong and reliable, and never ever felt out.

It was made in .458, 10,75x68, 9,3x64/62, .338, 8x68S, 6,5x68 and 264 and worked flawlessly.


HWL

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

This is completely wrong! ...sorry!

The Steyr-Mannlicher plastics rotary magazine was marginal, at it's best.

But the "made from steel" Rotary Magazine of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer was (and still is!) one of the finest, strong and reliable, and never ever felt out.

It was made in .458, 10,75x68, 9,3x64/62, .338, 8x68S, 6,5x68 and 264 and worked flawlessly.


HWL

HWL
Thank you so much for your educational response. I have had a client come to India with a .375 bore Mannlicher bolt operation rifle as well . As Kurpfalzjager noted , it is the 9.5 millimeter Mannlicher cartridge , l believe.

 

[mark-hunter]

Quoted: It was made in .458, 10,75x68, 9,3x64/62, .338, 8x68S, 6,5x68 and 264 and worked flawlessly.


10.75x68, once very much in use, today very rare, and (at least as per John Pondoro Taylor - in his masterpiece "African rifles and cartirdges"), never proven as reliable DG caliber.

9.3x64 - equal in performance to 375 HH, but legal minimum in some countries remain 375 HH.

And funny enough, of all those - only .458 wm remain as option for DG, in this rifle!

 

[HWL]

10.75x68, once very much in use, today very rare, and (at least as per John Pondoro Taylor - in his masterpiece "African rifles and cartirdges"), never proven as reliable DG caliber.

We should not forget....

John Pondoro Tayler judged the performence of the bullets!, loaded in his time .

All these bullets (and powders!) are gone long since.....with todays bullets, you name it, the situation is different.

10,75x68 is still alive

HWL

 

[grand veneur]

This is completely wrong! ...sorry!

The Steyr-Mannlicher plastics rotary magazine was marginal, at it's best.

But the "made from steel" Rotary Magazine of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer was (and still is!) one of the finest, strong and reliable, and never ever felt out.

It was made in .458, 10,75x68, 9,3x64/62, .338, 8x68S, 6,5x68 and 264 and worked flawlessly.


HWL

Sorry , but we speak about heavy DG cartridges and not magnum cartridges , the 10,75x68 and 458 Win Mag are not included too , they are not very heavy.

 

[HWL]

HWL
I have had a client come to India with a .375 bore Mannlicher bolt operation rifle as well . As Kurpfalzjager noted , it is the 9.5 millimeter Mannlicher cartridge , l believe.

You are right, as well as Kurpfalzjager, it was the M1910 Mannlicher-Schoenauer.

What did you hunt with this rifle/cartridge? DG?!


HWL

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

You are right, as well as Kurpfalzjager, it was the M1910 Mannlicher-Schoenauer.

What did you hunt with this rifle/cartridge? DG?!


HWL

HWL
My client hunted a 494 pound Royal Bengal male tiger with this cartridge and a single soft head bullet .
He attempted to also use it on a 2000 pound male Gaur , but it did not work very well and we had to face a charge and a great deal of difficulty in killing the Gaur . It took eight SG cartridges from our 12 bore side by side shot-guns and six .375 bore cartridges from the client's Mannlicher rifle to end it's life.