The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

[HWL]

Almost incomprehensible !

The 460WM is in the meantime a european cartridge. Every week a rifle caliber 460WM is offered for sale in Germany.

And most of these end as concret reinforcement....



HWL

 

[grand veneur]

And most of these end as concret reinforcement....



HWL

I think we are opening an topic about a cartridge which is loved by nobody , loathed by everyone , but unknow by all.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

I think we are opening an topic about a cartridge which is loved by nobody , loathed by everyone , but unknow by all.

Kurpfalzjager
Hopefully , after l try it next year , l will write an article about it over here based on my experience with the cartridge .

 

[IvW]

But IvW , l thought you once wrote here that you still hunt bush pigs with Buck shot ? . Or did you ditch that too ?

Nope I never use buckshot on bush pig boars. I do have a friend I hunt with who uses a semi auto loaded with slug LG slug LG in the corn at night for bush pigs...

AAA I use on forest duikers

 

[cmk]

Almost incomprehensible !

The 460WM is in the meantime a european cartridge. Every week a rifle caliber 460WM is offered for sale in Germany.

Could it perhaps be same gun being sold every week, as each new owner only fires a round or two before passing it on?

 

[cmk]

Sorry for straying from the topic a little. @Red Leg : I'm guessing that you may hold the answer to this one; when using a belted magnum in a double rifle, why not make the extractor/ejector work on the belt rather than the groove? Wouldn't that be as failsafe as the rim on a rimmed cartridge?

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Sorry for straying from the topic a little. @Red Leg : I'm guessing that you may hold the answer to this one; when using a belted magnum in a double rifle, why not make the extractor/ejector work on the belt rather than the groove? Wouldn't that be as failsafe as the rim on a rimmed cartridge?

Cmk
No apology necessary. Any topic here for the education of fellow forum members is welcome on my articles. It also gives me an opportunity to broaden my mind.

 

[IvW]

I am one of the 54 and 42.....

I do not like the 458 WM for DG.

A lot of it has to do with what you grew up with and the rest with experience
.
Lets take Land Rover vs Land Cruiser for example. If you are from England or you grew up around Land Rovers you would be hard pressed to believe that something can be better no matter the challenges faced of owning and trying to hunt with one of these. You will always like a Land Rover. I was luckily introduced to these and Land Cruisers during my time in the military and my first 2 years in Zim luckily cured me totally from Land Rovers for use as a hunting/safari vehicle. I am of the opinion that only people who do not have enough other crap in their yard use Land Rovers.

Same with guns. If you grew up around a 458 WM you would be of the opinion that it the best thing since sliced bread. I witnessed too many times issues with them, be it the rifle, the old ammo, the too small case capacity or whatever is irrelevant to me, I have no confidence in the caliber.

It also possesses some things I personally do not like in a DG caliber for use as a back up rifle which are.

Straight wall case
Belt
High pressure
And just not enough velocity

And yes as mentioned, to me it does not make sense as there are so many better options available as a DG cartridge, but as always to each his/her own.

 

[IvW]

Sorry for straying from the topic a little. @Red Leg : I'm guessing that you may hold the answer to this one; when using a belted magnum in a double rifle, why not make the extractor/ejector work on the belt rather than the groove? Wouldn't that be as failsafe as the rim on a rimmed cartridge?

Oh the belt is for head space not extraction. I recon the extraction reliability will take a nose dive, the belt is too thin...leaving you with a two shot...

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

I am one of the 54 and 42.....

I do not like the 458 WM for DG.

A lot of it has to do with what you grew up with and the rest with experience
.
Lets take Land Rover vs Land Cruiser for example. If you are from England or you grew up around Land Rovers you would be hard pressed to believe that something can be better no matter the challenges faced of owning and trying to hunt with one of these. You will always like a Land Rover. I was luckily introduced to these and Land Cruisers during my time in the military and my first 2 years in Zim luckily cured me totally from Land Rovers for use as a hunting/safari vehicle. I am of the opinion that only people who do not have enough other crap in their yard use Land Rovers.

Same with guns. If you grew up around a 458 WM you would be of the opinion that it the best thing since sliced bread. I witnessed too many times issues with them, be it the rifle, the old ammo, the too small case capacity or whatever is irrelevant to me, I have no confidence in the caliber.

It also possesses some things I personally do not like in a DG caliber for use as a back up rifle which are.

Straight wall case
Belt
High pressure
And just not enough velocity

And yes as mentioned, to me it does not make sense as there are so many better options available as a DG cartridge, but as always to each his/her own.

IvW
Your insight is given the highest value by myself. Thank you so much for explaining it to me in an analogy with vehicles ( on a related subject , my Shikari outfitting firm actually used to use land rovers . How interesting ) . Your experience in the military reminded me of our own Bangladesh army . Many older officers from our ( my ) generation still believe that the old Soviet Tokarev TT-33 7.62 millimeter calibre service pistol is one of the best service pistols in existence ( because we have had it since our 1971 war of Independence). Newer officers however, are pushing for the 9 millimeter Browning Hi Power pistol to be standardized as the official service pistol .
Despite personally being from the Tokarev generation and finding it a good pistol , l welcome the change and concede that the 9 millimeter Browning Hi Power pistol will indeed be a better choice for our soldiers .
Much like yourself , my late Shikar partner , Karim Chowdhury was an outspoken critic of this cartridge . While , l try being more neutral , my personal preference lies with the .375 Holland and Holland magnum , preferably built on a French Brevex mauser action . For a double barrel rifle , this would have 26 inch barrels , no automatic safety mechanism and two triggers . This cartridge can tackle anything in India ( except perhaps a large six ton bull elephant , but of that l am not sure , since l have never had the privilege to shoot an elephant or guide a Shikar for an elephant in India ).

 

[Foxi]

I am one of the 54 and 42.....

I do not like the 458 WM for DG.

A lot of it has to do with what you grew up with and the rest with experience
.
Lets take Land Rover vs Land Cruiser for example. If you are from England or you grew up around Land Rovers you would be hard pressed to believe that something can be better no matter the challenges faced of owning and trying to hunt with one of these. You will always like a Land Rover. I was luckily introduced to these and Land Cruisers during my time in the military and my first 2 years in Zim luckily cured me totally from Land Rovers for use as a hunting/safari vehicle. I am of the opinion that only people who do not have enough other crap in their yard use Land Rovers.

Same with guns. If you grew up around a 458 WM you would be of the opinion that it the best thing since sliced bread. I witnessed too many times issues with them, be it the rifle, the old ammo, the too small case capacity or whatever is irrelevant to me, I have no confidence in the caliber.

It also possesses some things I personally do not like in a DG caliber for use as a back up rifle which are.

Straight wall case
Belt
High pressure
And just not enough velocity

And yes as mentioned, to me it does not make sense as there are so many better options available as a DG cartridge, but as always to each his/her own.

Jim Corbet shot most of his man-eating tigers with the 7x57(275 Rigby), a cartridge that here hardly anyone to the driven hunt on boars may take.
What I want to say: you should already be able to shoot

p.s.
But your landrover executions are a direct hit,a car for masochists.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Jim Corbet shot most of his man-eating tigers with the 7x57(275 Rigby), a cartridge that here hardly anyone to the driven hunt on boars may take.
What I want to say: you should already be able to shoot

p.s.
But your landrover executions are a direct hit,a car for masochists.

Foxi
Jim Corbett is my child hood hero , alongside Stewart Granger .
You are 100 % correct about his 7 millimeter mauser calibre bolt operation rifle.
But I am fairly certain that Mr. Corbett also had a larger .400 bore double barrel rifle made by the firm , Jeffery as insurance , also. However , you probably already know this .

 

[IvW]

Jim Corbet shot most of his man-eating tigers with the 7x57(275 Rigby), a cartridge that here hardly anyone to the driven hunt on boars may take.
What I want to say: you should already be able to shoot

p.s.
But your landrover executions are a direct hit,a car for masochists.

The 7x57mm is a fine cartridge and is my favorite PG caliber, however a correction is in order. Jim Corbett, although he did shoot a number of tiger and leopard with the 7x57mm, shot most of his Tigers with a double 450/400 By Jeffery.

I would use the 7x57mm with the right bullets on any driven hunt including the biggest of wild boars...

 

[cmk]

Oh the belt is for head space not extraction. I recon the extraction reliability will take a nose dive, the belt is too thin...leaving you with a two shot...

Oh, I know what the belt is for, but it seemed to me that it could possibly also work for extraction purposes. But perhaps the belt is too thin, and it may indeed 'slip over' the extractor, especially with tapered cases when they are halfway out.

The fact that they are not built like that could indicate that it is not a good idea.

It was just an idea I got, I don't have any double rifle, and none of my rifles are chambered for belted or rimmed cartridges (apart from the 22).

Edit: added a missing "not"

 

[sestoppelman]

Sestoppelman
That is most fascinating . May l ask what firm made the rifle ? The one which my client used , was made by the firm , Holland and Holland. And regulated for the Remington pattern of cartridge .

Unfortunately I don't know, not sure I ever did know, but if I did I have forgotten. He rarely carried it, or anything else for that matter while hunting. His way of chasing lions off a kill was to wave his hat at them and holler!! Willie Engelbrecht was his name, he is unfortunately no longer with us, a real character.

 

[Red Leg]

Oh, I know what the belt is for, but it seemed to me that it could possibly also work for extraction purposes. But perhaps the belt is too thin, and it may indeed 'slip over' the extractor, especially with tapered cases when they are halfway out.

The fact that they are not built like that could indicate that it is not a good idea.

It was just an idea I got, I don't have any double rifle, and none of my rifles are chambered for belted or rimmed cartridges (apart from the 22).

Edit: added a missing "not"

You would have to come up with a design where a substantial portion of the rear of the chamber acted as an extractor. And then one still wouldn't have much to grab on the case. I would actually prefer the tabs to that. And let me say, the tabs do work.

 

[Jaws]

Interesting discussions, & thanks to the OP for the entertaining stories from India's glory days.

I'm probably one of the very few people that has no affection towards the .300WM .375H&H / Ruger & .416 in all its forms.
I am however captured by the .300H&H, 9.3, 404, 450/400Ne, 450Ne & .470Ne. Believe me if I say I really cant put my finger on it as to why precisely, besides from the fact that I perceive these calibers to be practical in their functions , recoil vs ability & moderate velocities. There is also just the look to what I like about the form of these cases. Its somewhat hard to explain so I will call it an emotional attraction to the somewhat underdogs vs the raved about champions...
I dislike the .416 Rigby due to the obnoxious fellow that introduced me to the caliber when I was a young boy & the BS he spewed over his safe queen.

It is pretty obvious, my opinion regarding the .458WM will be in support of this underdog.
I used to be skeptical as a result of all the critics , historical, current by all & sundry whether professional or not but blasting away with an opinion of their own. Some with plausible credit, others based purely on conclusion from literature.
The old man & I obtained a .458WM with the intention of converting it to a Lott, but due to the endless license issues in SA, we decided to give the WM a try & surprisingly we both fell in love with it. The mild recoil makes it a pleasure to shoot, despite being a Musgrave push feed,( I can imagine the critics going nuts about this double whammy for a DG gun) it functions flawlessly, is accurate as can be & it kills what it is aimed at.
Reloading 450grn / 480grn Peregrine bullets (another sh!t in the pants moment, light for caliber bullets!) the old man has taken from jackal to lion & if we can get the bloody time, buffalo, hippo & elephant without a doubt.

With modern ammunition, the .458WM has come to its own right as a capable DG rifle. Probably not the best choice as a PH rifle, but heck, I know of plenty PH's that legally guides with a .375 which I don't consider a stopping rifle.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Interesting discussions, & thanks to the OP for the entertaining stories from India's glory days.

I'm probably one of the very few people that has no affection towards the .300WM .375H&H / Ruger & .416 in all its forms.
I am however captured by the .300H&H, 9.3, 404, 450/400Ne, 450Ne & .470Ne. Believe me if I say I really cant put my finger on it as to why precisely, besides from the fact that I perceive these calibers to be practical in their functions , recoil vs ability & moderate velocities. There is also just the look to what I like about the form of these cases. Its somewhat hard to explain so I will call it an emotional attraction to the somewhat underdogs vs the raved about champions...
I dislike the .416 Rigby due to the obnoxious fellow that introduced me to the caliber when I was a young boy & the BS he spewed over his safe queen.

It is pretty obvious, my opinion regarding the .458WM will be in support of this underdog.
I used to be skeptical as a result of all the critics , historical, current by all & sundry whether professional or not but blasting away with an opinion of their own. Some with plausible credit, others based purely on conclusion from literature.
The old man & I obtained a .458WM with the intention of converting it to a Lott, but due to the endless license issues in SA, we decided to give the WM a try & surprisingly we both fell in love with it. The mild recoil makes it a pleasure to shoot, despite being a Musgrave push feed,( I can imagine the critics going nuts about this double whammy for a DG gun) it functions flawlessly, is accurate as can be & it kills what it is aimed at.
Reloading 450grn / 480grn Peregrine bullets (another sh!t in the pants moment, light for caliber bullets!) the old man has taken from jackal to lion & if we can get the bloody time, buffalo, hippo & elephant without a doubt.

With modern ammunition, the .458WM has come to its own right as a capable DG rifle. Probably not the best choice as a PH rifle, but heck, I know of plenty PH's that legally guides with a .375 which I don't consider a stopping rifle.

Jaws
What a most insightful reply . For a gentleman such as yourself , l should think a 9.3 millimeter mauser calibre bolt operation rifle for general use and a .458 Winchester magnum calibre bolt operation rifle for Gaur would be the perfect Shikar battery which l would recommend to you , were l guiding you in India during my career as a professional Shikari from 1962 to 1970 .

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Nope I never use buckshot on bush pig boars. I do have a friend I hunt with who uses a semi auto loaded with slug LG slug LG in the corn at night for bush pigs...

AAA I use on forest duikers

But IvW ,
Aren't semi autos illegal in Africa ?

 

[Jaws]

But IvW ,
Aren't semi autos illegal in Africa ?

Not illegal in SA, for hunting purposes, the magazine has to be altered to allow for only two rounds to be fed + 1 in the chamber. But difficult to obtain a license though.