The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

[HWL]

Sorry , but we speak about heavy DG cartridges and not magnum cartridges , the 10,75x68 and 458 Win Mag are not included too , they are not very heavy.

I answered to your #128, you talk about Mannlicher magazines,... and obviously the cartridges they where made for.

Sorry, when I misunderstood.




HWL

 

[HWL]

HWL
My client hunted a 494 pound Royal Bengal male tiger with this cartridge and a single soft head bullet .
He attempted to also use it on a 2000 pound male Gaur , but it did not work very well and we had to face a charge and a great deal of difficulty in killing the Gaur . It took eight SG cartridges from our 12 bore side by side shot-guns and six .375 bore cartridges from the client's Mannlicher rifle to end it's life.

Retrospetive, do you think the cartridge was appropriate for the tiger?

The gaur went wrong because of bad bullet placement or bad bullet performance?

HWL

 

[IvW]

IvW
I must ask a naive question ( since l know so little about Africa ) . In one of Hoss Delgado's threads , you mentioned a gentleman named Mr. La Grange who liked to use a rifle in .458 Winchester magnum calibre loaded with 500 grain Hornady metal envelope bullets to cull large amounts of elephants. Was his choice , also based on availability alone ?
Also , l may be very mistaken , but the photograph you had shown of this gentleman would indicate that he was using a double barrel rifle in the .458 Winchester magnum calibre.

Yes department issued 458 WM. The double I believe was his personal firearm.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Retrospetive, do you think the cartridge was appropriate for the tiger?

The gaur went wrong because of bad bullet placement or bad bullet performance?

HWL

HWL
Since , l had only ever had one client bring a rifle in such a calibre , it would be unwise for me to make a conclusive statement.
For the Royal Bengal tiger , our client used a soft head bullet and he shot the creature from the side at a distance of 70 yards . The bullet pierced both lungs . The animal went a hundred yards before dropping lifeless , all the while coughing blood . Based on that performance alone , l would say that it went well. However , l cannot comment on the proficiency of a Royal Bengal tiger cartridge until l see how well it can stop a charging Royal Bengal tiger with a front side shot .
For the Gaur , l mean no disrespect to our respected client . However , l am of opinion that had he listened to us , things may have worked out better. We advised him to use a soft head cartridge for the first shot and metal envelope cartridges for the insurance shots . He was adamant that he only wanted to use metal envelope cartridges for the Gaur . So , we got him into a side position for the traditional two lung shot at the animal.
He fired . The bullet did not make an adequate wound channel into the beasts lungs . I still believe that , had he used a soft head cartridge , it would have opened properly inside the beast's lungs and it would have made short work of the Gaur. A Gaur bison shot through both lungs and coughing copious amounts of blood seldom thinks of charging , you see . It goes a short distance , coughing a fountain of blood and drops lifeless.

It my time , the standard three large game cartridges brought by clients was the following :
9.3 millimeter mauser
.375 Holland and Holland magnum
.458 Winchester magnum.
I can give better opinion on them .
I apologize if l could not be more helpful. But it is unethical to give more information than what l have seen ,first hand.

 

[IvW]

Richard Harland in Zimbabwe (4 figure elephant kills and the PH for the largest elephant ever hunted in Zim) in his book Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant recommends the rifle he used for most of his Tsetse Fly corridor culling. It is a four shot rotary magazine Mannlicher (PUSH FEED!!!) in 458 Win Mag. Harland said for serious Elephant work, it could hardly be improved upon. His apprentice, Barry Duckworth (also a prolific and legendary PH in Zim who retired just this year) also recommends the rifle/chambering set up, having said on more than one occasion "I'd be dead if I had a double." In his book, Harland also has an appendix chapter at the end devoted SPECIFICALLY to the 458 Win Mag and how uniquely great a chambering it is - especially for elephant.

All that being said, I honestly think the Lott is an improvement if for nothing else than reduced pressure. While a Lott is going to be my next center fire rifle purchase, MANY people I respect are using fifties.

For clients, consider the awesome new 350 grain 375 bullets out now, or maybe a 404 Jeffery for coolness points. For PAC or PHing, I'd recommend the biggest damn thing you can shoot straight that holds the most cartridges in the magazine

Furthermore Richard used his 505 Gibbs as a back up rifle when guiding clients on elephant not the 458 WM. It is also the rifle he was using when he guided General Victor Verster who shot the largest elephant to come out of Zimbabwe.

 

[grand veneur]

I answered to your #128, you talk about Mannlicher magazines,... and obviously the cartridges they where made for.

Sorry, when I misunderstood.




HWL

No problem.

I like MS rifle and the MS action too , but the Mauser action is more versatile when it comes to cartridges , especially the big ones.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Nope, what I NEED is have my surgeon remove his last stitches tomorrow so I can hunt more!
I deserve (not need) an ATTABOY! for being able to mow, harrow, and seed Rye in our horse pastures with those stitches still in. Just finished seeding today and a cold front with rain is due tomorrow.
And I NEED to have another big BBQ for my hunting friends (and maybe a couple relatives) to eat some of the game in our freezers so I have an excuse to shoot more.
I NEED to use a few more of my rifles to kill feral hogs so all of them can say they have done that.
I NEED to take my .405 and .458 doubles to Africa, Australia, etc just for the fun of it.
I NEED to kill some black bears with those doubles too. Two such hunts have fallen through , but another is now booked. Wife says she wants a bear rug, so,,,.

I NEED to HUNT more!!!

CEH, you got me there, it is all photo shopped by my wife! She also did this nice Simson Co Trade Label for the Simson DR gun case:

crs,
I NEED to take my loathsome .458 WM to the range more often. Maybe I’ll bring my less loathsome .375 H and H also. I also NEED to start reloading both cartridges to maybe make them less loathsome, if that’s possible? I’m also starting to NEED a lesser loathsome.416, if that’s possible? Loathsome is in the eyes of the beholder or beholden? Ha! Ha! Ha!
CEH

 

[CoElkHunter]

What's going on in Texas ?

This is not a problem in France to find a rifle caliber 460WM , even one of our former presidents had one , by the way , made by the same gunmaker as mine in Strasbourg , and also on a Brevex action.

I could have bought a new Weatherby .460 about three weeks ago at a Denver gun show for about $3,100.00 us? But why, when I might find a .50 BMG bolt action? That ammo is actually easier to find than .460 Weatherby and probably cheaper? But again, why? Bullets are bigger? Ha! Ha! Ha! BUT, in all seriousness, if I had the funds available, I WOULD HAVE bought the .460 for Mr. Rahman, and he could have taken it home to India and hunted anything he wants to with it, as long as he shares his stories and photos with all of us here on AH!

 

[CoElkHunter]

Hoss, it's not my intention
Here are some gas pressures for comparison (is it also tested in America in "bar"?)
.416 Rem. 4300 bar
.416 Rigby 3250
.460 Weatherby 4.400 bar
.470 NE 2.400 bar !!!
.458 WM 3.800 bar
.577 NE 2.200 !!! bar
9,3x74 R 3.000 bar
Factory loads

Wow! I don’t own a .416 rifle yet, but have been thinking about one? The pressure on the Remington seems very high? But, alas, so many people own and like them it’s probably a moot point? Thanks!

 

[grand veneur]

I could have bought a new Weatherby .460 about three weeks ago at a Denver gun show for about $3,100.00 us? But why, when I might find a .50 BMG bolt action? That ammo is actually easier to find than .460 Weatherby and probably cheaper? But again, why? Bullets are bigger? Ha! Ha! Ha! BUT, in all seriousness, if I had the funds available, I WOULD HAVE bought the .460 for Mr. Rahman, and he could have taken it home to India and hunted anything he wants to with it, as long as he shares his stories and photos with all of us here on AH!

I would not buy or build a rifle caliber 460WM any more nowadays. One should not forget that some of us , me too , are not the youngest. The concepts have changed over time and in the last decades.

Nevertheless , rifles caliber 600NE for example , among many others calibers , are still built , rifles that you even less need than a rifle caliber 460WM. Strangely , there is less excitement than when it comes to the cartridge 460WM.

At the end everyone should use what he likes and what he shoot very well. The cartridge should be well suited for the game you are looking for , and done.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

So does this mean that for five decades the one cartridge which l have always dreamt of shooting is actually not liked by any respected member on these forums anymore ?

 

[gesch]

Thank you for another thought provoking and educational post.

 

[grand veneur]

So does this mean that for five decades the one cartridge which l have always dreamt of shooting is actually not liked by any respected member on these forums anymore ?

You must not misunderstand me.

If I had to choose a cartridge caliber .458 again , then I would go back to the 460WM. For me it is the best cartridge of this caliber , in all cases in the hands of a reloader. The factory ammo of this cartridge is another topic.

A client who doesn't need to do his own backup , doesn't need a cartridge caliber 458 , unless he regularly hunts elephants. Otherwise he is well served with a cartridge caliber .416 or 404 Jeffery. As we have said many times , nowadays we have a large selection of well-suited cartridges for DG hunting. That was not always so.

As a young hunter I would first buy or build a rifle caliber 416 Rigby.

 

[perttime]

So does this mean that for five decades the one cartridge which l have always dreamt of shooting is actually not liked by any respected member on these forums anymore ?

From other discussions and articles, many think that the velocities you get with a 500 grain bullet out of 458WM are not quite enough for large and dangerous African game. Elephant and Cape Buffalo. So there have been different solutions for getting the 500 grain .458 bullet to about 2400fps, which many feel is a "sweet spot" (and more is excessive).

 

[grand veneur]

I think @Kawshik Rahman mean the cartridge 460WM and not 458 Win Mag. But I can be wrong.

 

[perttime]

I think @Kawshik Rahman mean the cartridge 460WM and not 458 Win Mag. But I can be wrong.

The original post is about the .458 Winchester Magnum. It is also mentioned in some of his other articles. I have not spotted him mentioning the Weatherby Magnum (which many feel is excessive in cartridge size, velocity, and recoil).

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

The original post is about the .458 Winchester Magnum. It is also mentioned in some of his other articles. I have not spotted him mentioning the Weatherby Magnum (which many feel is excessive in cartridge size, velocity, and recoil).

Perttime
Kurpfalzjager is correct. I am intimately familiar with the .458 Winchester magnum cartridge , as many of my clients used to bring it .However , it had always been my life long dream for the last five decades to shoot a .460 Weatherby magnum calibre rifle. You see , this is because of a sentimental reason :
When l used to be a professional Shikari in Darjeeling , India from 1962 to 1970 , the .460 Weatherby magnum used to be the most powerful commercially loaded cartridge which was available in our time . Some of the foreign clients guided by my fellow Shikari colleagues , used to bring them to India for shooting Gaur. However , none of my clients ever brought a .460 Weatherby magnum calibre rifle . Therefore , l developed a curiosity and later a desire to shoot a .460 Weatherby magnum calibre rifle some day .
This is more out of a youthful craving , rather than for practical purposes . However , l am certain that even you ( and infact every hunter ) has a craving to try some particular calibre some day just for recreation. I am certain that you can relate.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

I think @Kawshik Rahman mean the cartridge 460WM and not 458 Win Mag. But I can be wrong.

Kurpfalzjager
You are correct .

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Thank you for another thought provoking and educational post.

Gesch
Thank you so much for your kind words and support.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

You must not misunderstand me.

If I had to choose a cartridge caliber .458 again , then I would go back to the 460WM. For me it is the best cartridge of this caliber , in all cases in the hands of a reloader. The factory ammo of this cartridge is another topic.

A client who doesn't need to do his own backup , doesn't need a cartridge caliber 458 , unless he regularly hunts elephants. Otherwise he is well served with a cartridge caliber .416 or 404 Jeffery. As we have said many times , nowadays we have a large selection of well-suited cartridges for DG hunting. That was not always so.

As a young hunter I would first buy or build a rifle caliber 416 Rigby.

Kurpfalzjager
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain it to me . If l understand things correctly , then what you are saying is that you respect the .460 Weatherby magnum calibre , but it is just not what you see as being the perfect calibre for your uses anymore. Am l accurate ?