thats why I dont like doubles (have one)

[Foxi]

@Foxi apparently I'm missing point as to why you don't like doubles. Please elaborate. By my count the PH got in four shots (with a double) and the client two shots (with a bolt gun).

There are one or two points.
I may have exaggerated the headline a bit, but here in Germany, where there is sometimes a lot of money, you hardly ever see them on hunts.
Often only this miserable plastic gun R8 from Blaser
Our tracking guides don't have them in principle (40-100 wound searches for boars and stag in the densest forest per year minimum).These professionals use a 98 mauser system almost without exception.

They are also divas, possibly a different point of impact every 8 months, although they are only in the cupboard (soldered barrels I just say, they just work, I can see it on my Ferlacher).

A friend went a buch of pigs in the wheat with his Heym.
He shot with his double rifle no.1 from the herd and then immediately with shot no. 2 another one.unfortunately too far behind.this one attacked immediately and his luck was that it was only a sow with almost 40 kg that he could fend off with his rubber boots until he finally, finally reloaded and finished the subject.with a big boar that would have been his death,not to mention the buffalo.

The double rifle hunters I met in Africa were all experienced hunters who wanted to try them out once or more often, not one of them was a 'once in a lifetime' hunter.
Each of them had several buffalo or elephants hanging on the wall, so it's not so bad if you come home without an expensive trophy.

And a glass on a double rifle in cal .450 upwards might smash your skull in the hustle and bustle.it's only about rear sight and front sight or-and that makes them ugly with aimpoint.
that means you can't shoot far at buffalo in the dark miombo bush where everything is black anyway only with your eyes without a scope.

Quickly fire three shots from your bolt action rifle and three from a double rifle..........

I love them for their elegance, but elegant ladies are not always suitable for the hard bread of everyday life.
Only my two cents
Foxi

to continue this marvellous discussion ,there is a short video from Ivan Carter in AH, where he says there is nothing like a double rifle. Could someone please post this link ? I can't find it anymore.

 

[Tanks]

I have shot only three elephants and two buffalo with a double in the last three years, so not a prolific user of a double. All the rest have been with bolt rifles in the past.

That being said, I prefer the double rifle for DG. I find having two fast shots better than having 3 (my big bores hold 3) slower shots. Others, of course, might have other preferences. And if one has to reload from empty it is faster to reload a double than a magazine rifle.

My next hunt of lion, hippo, buffalo will all be with a Rigby double.

 

[Foxi]

mount down your bloody scope after the first shot.

@ Tanks
the lion in the dawn possibly,the hippo on 70m in the brain ?
With a double without a scope.
I cant do that,thats the reason for my bolt action system and my Swaro.
My Brünner Safari can hold 6 cartridges.
5 in the magazin,1 in the barrell.
When thats not enough I would give it up.
But a good first shot is the answer of all questions.

 

[Altitude sickness]

That camera man did an amazing job

 

[hoytcanon]

That camera man did an amazing job

Yup... that guy needs a raise! Running camera men are why we don't see more of these videos!

 

[pilar]

After watching about 25-30 buffalo YouTube videos with a buffalo hunt in the past week , I have noticed that many people have a terrible tendency to habitually lay their gun over sideways to catch the bass , this in particular causes some bolt action to jam , and imo is a terrible habit when the shit hits the fan or a buff is needing some more lead on a follow up
its so common I noticed some PH’s automatically start shooting after the first shot
also some bolt action will jamb with a low profile scope mount, and folks with a brass catching habit don’t know what has happened when rapid fire is needed and the spent case has fallen back to the gun

 

[HankBuck]

Ammo is slow and typical round nosed jacketed solids are useless in this case.
You are limited to regulated ammo.
They are extremely expensive.
You have to look down to reload.
You cannot reload it in the shoulder.
After 2 your gun is empty.....

A well built bolt and experienced ph would not have the same issue as the client.
I use a 500 Jeff premium expanders only for buff. Normal load is 570gr. Currently ecperimenting with 600gr to get the sd up to .330...

IVW, a few Qs: 1). what so you mean “Ammo is slow?”
2). Is the Spenser of SxS ammo really a deciding factor? (No big bore is “cheap”).
3). Why is reloading at the shoulder perferrred? And can’t some load a double rifle by feel or as “quick” a glance as any other rifle.
Agree with you that after Two you’re empty - but its a quick 2 shots that rarely malfunction

 

[Tanks]

...
@ Tanks
the lion in the dawn possibly,the hippo on 70m in the brain ?
With a double without a scope.
I cant do that,thats the reason for my bolt action system and my Swaro.
...

I always put a red dot on my big bores, even bolts. So, it is not just using iron sights. This elephant was shot off-hand at 55m on a full moon night. No issues with seeing it.

 

[HankBuck]

That camera man did an amazing job

Altitude, Yes great camera work BUT - if that was ME with a Buffalo horn up my A-s….I’d prefer less video and the camera guy grabbed a rifle and helped me !!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

IVW, a few Qs: 1). what so you mean “Ammo is slow?”
2). Is the Spenser of SxS ammo really a deciding factor? (No big bore is “cheap”).
3). Why is reloading at the shoulder perferrred? And can’t some load a double rifle by feel or as “quick” a glance as any other rifle.
Agree with you that after Two you’re empty - but its a quick 2 shots that rarely malfunction

Sometimes too quick. There was a thread recently about double firing and I was surprised to learn it's not as rare as I thought. Double fire = instant unloaded rifle. I have seen one Cape buffalo video where it definitely happened and several where the second barrel was fired so quickly the client was not even remotely close to being back on target after recoil. Obviously, the disadvantage to a double rifle, as is clearly shown in this video, is it is difficult reloading  any rifle on the run. A double requires reloading after only two shots while most bolt DGRs are good for at least four shots before requiring reloading. And reloading a double on the run is much more difficult than simply dropping a cartridge in an open chamber and closing the bolt. If you've ever handled a broken open double gun, you'll know how awkward they are. There's a reason why guys at the range carry their O/Us over their shoulder broken open. Try carrying one around broken any other way. The gun is  extremely out of balance.

 

[HankBuck]

Sometimes too quick. There was a thread recently about double firing and I was surprised to learn it's not as rare as I thought. Double fire = instant unloaded rifle. I have seen one Cape buffalo video where it definitely happened and several where the second barrel was fired so quickly the client was not even remotely close to being back on target after recoil. Obviously, the disadvantage to a double rifle, as is clearly shown in this video, is it is difficult reloading  any rifle on the run. A double requires reloading after only two shots while most bolt DGRs are good for at least four shots before requiring reloading. And reloading a double on the run is much more difficult than simply dropping a cartridge in an open chamber and closing the bolt. If you've ever handled a broken open double gun, you'll know how awkward they are. There's a reason why guys at the range carry their O/Us over their shoulder broken open. Try carrying one around broken any other way. The gun is  extremely out of balance.

I found my Double rifle much less awkward (when open) then my O/U shotguns - yes it’s much heavier but SxS allows the barrels to be accessed (loaded) at less of an angle then those of a O/U. I can also reload my SxS shotgun faster then my OU shotguns —- but of course I’ve never done either when being charged by anything bigger then a “dove”. As far as double discharge - always possible and usually caused when during recoil your finger “taps the 2nd trigger”. If that happens your 2nd shot is likely pointed towards the “sky”. Definitely Pros & Cons to each type of rifle and I don’t have the DG experience to determine “whats better”…but the PH’s that do seem to prefer a Double Rifle

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I found my Double rifle much less awkward (when open) then my O/U shotguns - yes it’s much heavier but SxS allows the barrels to be accessed (loaded) at less of an angle then those of a O/U. I can also reload my SxS shotgun faster then my OU shotguns —- but of course I’ve never done either when being charged by anything bigger then a “dove”. As far as double discharge - always possible and usually caused when during recoil your finger “taps the 2nd trigger”. If that happens your 2nd shot is likely pointed towards the “sky”. Definitely Pros & Cons to each type of rifle and I don’t have the DG experience to determine “whats better”…but the PH’s that do seem to prefer a Double Rifle

Ruark's Harry Selby preferred his standard action 98 Mauser in 416 Rigby for almost forty years. And Selby shot it left-handed! Capstick's ivory hunter Wally Johnson made a career shooting hundreds, maybe thousands, of elephants with a Model 70 in 375. Both men had double rifles available to them. My PHs also prefer bolt action for dangerous game backup. For what it's worth (absolutely nothing), I prefer that they have bolt action backup rifles, especially after watching this video.

 

[Tanks]

Well, I have shot two elephants and one buffalo with Dean as the PH on the last two hunts. I had no qualms about him backing me up with a double. I would hunt with him again anytime.

Then, again, I was using a .500 NE double not a rat caliber bolt in .375, so he had no need to back me up.

 

[Foxi]

Well, I have shot two elephants and one buffalo with Dean as the PH on the last two hunts. I had no qualms about him backing me up with a double. I would hunt with him again anytime.

Then, again, I was using a .500 NE double not a rat caliber bolt in .375, so he had no need to back me up.

my Shona PH always said to me : a .500 NE is for cowards

 

[pilar]

Ruark's Harry Selby preferred his standard action 98 Mauser in 416 Rigby for almost forty years. And Selby shot it left-handed! Capstick's ivory hunter Wally Johnson made a career shooting hundreds, maybe thousands, of elephants with a Model 70 in 375. Both men had double rifles available to them. My PHs also prefer bolt action for dangerous game backup. For what it's worth (absolutely nothing), I prefer that they have bolt action backup rifles, especially after watching this video.

I’m ambivalent on whether someone is carrying a bolt or double gun , but lots of pros carry a big bore double laying some serious energy down , and a double imo is faster and easier to achieve results.
my two buddies can shoot two swinging milk jugs much faster and easier with their doubles, compared to a bolt

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I’m ambivalent on whether someone is carrying a bolt or double gun , but lots of pros carry a big bore double laying some serious energy down , and a double imo is faster and easier to achieve results.
my two buddies can shoot two swinging milk jugs much faster and easier with their doubles, compared to a bolt

And what if they miss a shot at one of the milk jugs? Can they reload and get a third shot off quicker than the guy with a bolt rifle and two (or three) rounds left in his gun? Doubtful. Shooting at swinging milk jugs is not the same as a charging buffalo. I take guys bird hunting who average in the twenties on the skeet range but can't hit geese to save their life at thirty yards. They might be deadly on the trap range but come totally unglued and fan three shots when a pheasant gets up over a dog on point.

 

[AZDAVE]

No need to comment on the video as pretty much everything has been analyzed.

My observation is that each weapon system, (bolt, double, single shot, straight pull, and lever gun all have a different manual of arms. Practice with your rifle platform until you can do it moving in the dark! Muscle memory is king and once you have it ingrained it should be practiced daily the month before you go out on your safari. You owe it to yourself, the PH, tracker and most importantly the animal to be as proficient as possible. I can shoot a double faster for two shots than any other platform. Can shoot three shots faster with a bolt and lever than a double. can shoot a double 4 shots faster than the others. Back when I practiced all the time with my Ruger #1 I could shoot it faster for 5 shots than any of the above. (Out of practice now) have no experience with a modern straight pull so no evaluation on that platform.

So please concentrate on making that first shot count!!!!! then events and the will of the DG will dictate what the rest of the story will be.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

There are one or two points.
I may have exaggerated the headline a bit, but here in Germany, where there is sometimes a lot of money, you hardly ever see them on hunts.
Often only this miserable plastic gun R8 from Blaser
Our tracking guides don't have them in principle (40-100 wound searches for boars and stag in the densest forest per year minimum).These professionals use a 98 mauser system almost without exception.

They are also divas, possibly a different point of impact every 8 months, although they are only in the cupboard (soldered barrels I just say, they just work, I can see it on my Ferlacher).

A friend went a buch of pigs in the wheat with his Heym.
He shot with his double rifle no.1 from the herd and then immediately with shot no. 2 another one.unfortunately too far behind.this one attacked immediately and his luck was that it was only a sow with almost 40 kg that he could fend off with his rubber boots until he finally, finally reloaded and finished the subject.with a big boar that would have been his death,not to mention the buffalo.

The double rifle hunters I met in Africa were all experienced hunters who wanted to try them out once or more often, not one of them was a 'once in a lifetime' hunter.
Each of them had several buffalo or elephants hanging on the wall, so it's not so bad if you come home without an expensive trophy.

And a glass on a double rifle in cal .450 upwards might smash your skull in the hustle and bustle.it's only about rear sight and front sight or-and that makes them ugly with aimpoint.
that means you can't shoot far at buffalo in the dark miombo bush where everything is black anyway only with your eyes without a scope.

Quickly fire three shots from your bolt action rifle and three from a double rifle..........

I love them for their elegance, but elegant ladies are not always suitable for the hard bread of everyday life.
Only my two cents
Foxi

to continue this marvellous discussion ,there is a short video from Ivan Carter in AH, where he says there is nothing like a double rifle. Could someone please post this link ? I can't find it anymore.

Thank you, Will put

Lon

 

[pilar]

And what if they miss a shot at one of the milk jugs? Can they reload and get a third shot off quicker than the guy with a bolt rifle and two (or three) rounds left in his gun? Doubtful. Shooting at swinging milk jugs is not the same as a charging buffalo. I take guys bird hunting who average in the twenties on the skeet range but can't hit geese to save their life at thirty yards. They might be deadly on the trap range but come totally unglued and fan three shots when a pheasant gets up over a dog on point.

No we are pretty much implements of death with firearms in hand , live fire practice is conducted by a hole in the fence which feral hogs are trying desperately to escape back into the brush and we are in their way, it’s pretty sporty practice , milk jugs are just a compromise if hogs don’t cooperate

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Rather than commenting on what a PH should be using, ask why he no use’s what he uses.

Personally is I am by myself walking in the bush I carry my Jefferies .404 J. On client back up either my old Rigby .416 R or my George Gibbs .470 depending on where I am hunting.

Dean, in the video has loaded and taken down more DG than most will have the opportunity to pull the trigger on.

He had several things on his mind, client, cameraman & buffalo, oh & loading his double.

Lon