thats why I dont like doubles (have one)

[Ontario Hunter]

I confess to have never heard of short stroking a bolt rifle until coming on this forum ... and I've been hunting big game with a bolt rifle since 1964. As I understand it, short stroke jamming occurs when the bolt is drawn back far enough to pick up the next cartridge in the magazine without ejecting the spent case held in the extractor. The shooter tries to close the bolt with a cartridge and empty case on the bolt head. I just now got both my guns out and tried to  make them jam short stroking. I loaded the magazine with a dummy round, dropped an empty case in the chamber, depressed the magazine round, and closed the bolt, snapping the extractor over on the rim of the case in the chamber. Then I attempted to carefully draw back the bolt till it catches the rim of magazine cartridge without the empty case in the extractor being ejected. It is quite literally impossible to short stroke either rifle. The empty case is  always ejected  before the bolt can slip over the rim of next cartridge in the magazine. Mind you, both are standard length actions: 30-06 Springfield 03A3 and 404 Jeffery on a Czech vz.24 standard length 98 Mauser. And it certainly makes sense that military guns would be designed to make short stroking impossible. No more dangerous game than a target that can shoot back! So if short stroke jamming is a proprietary issue with magnum length sporting actions, why hasn't it been similarly corrected by design engineers?

It is possible to short stroke my rifles and reload the fired case back into the chamber (though it has never happened to me in the field). But that is not a jam. It's a "click" misfire that is easily corrected by simply recycling, same as a bad primer (which I have experienced in the field more than once).

Perhaps mass produced rifles with one-size-fits-all magazine boxes are the problem? I can see how a magazine box that is significantly longer than necessary might allow cartridges to be improperly stacked slightly ahead of the ejector, so the rim of next cartridge can slip up onto the bolt face before the spent shell is ejected. And heavy recoiling rifles would in any event pitch cartridges in the magazine to the front of the box. Seems this should be preventable with proper engineering ... especially in ultra expensive magnum rifles.

 

[Flewis]

In the video, as the initial shots did not kill the buffalo, all end up into the difficulty of the PH and hunter to reload their rifle efficiently and fast enough to shoot again. The PH had difficulty as he had to reload his DR, move at the same time, looking at the buffalo, looking at the ground/bush/feet, looking at his rifle, finding the barrel holes for the cartridge, etc. The hunter had difficulty to cycle the bolt or solve a jam.

So looking at the reloading part:
I was always wondering why a number of hunters/PH were removing the rifle from the shoulder to reload. It was for me a loss of precious time to move+readjust the rifle and re sight into the target.
Recently I saw this:

which is one explanation on why it is recommended to cycle the bolt with the rifle not on the shoulder. The explanation is backed up by K. Robinson in the video.
The assumption here is that most hunters are not enough used to work with a magnum action length and thus are easily short cycling the bolt, leading to double feed and jam. By cycling the bolt off the shoulder you are more prone to cycle fully and also you can look at the rifle and see if a round is being fed appropriately.

This is nicely explained, but when your life is at stake, you don't have time to think and fall into your body memory/habit. So it ends up trying to improve the weakest elements in the chain (which are different for each of us) might be handling recoil, reloading, shooting fast & close, tendency to freeze due to stress, shooting too fast, fast acquisition of target, etc. etc.

In my case, I might think of this advocated reloading approach when shooting off stick. I know that even with training, when situation is becoming hairy, the old habit from years off hunting in Europe will pop up: this is relying on operating a bolt rifle with the palm without looking at it, on the shoulder and not loosing sight of the animal at any time. Knowing this, I try to maximize the reliability of my "system" and use a proven reliable action (mauser 98 type action) in almost all my rifles with similar safety and trigger weight.

Driven hunt is also a nice way to train for real life moving target at short range. Today there are also tools to train. Aimpoint has developed an affordable virtual reality shooting system that is amazing and simulates different scenarios of hunting wildboar, moose, bear, red stag, whitetail, etc.. You wear a Virtual reality helmet and handle a rifle stock with real trigger and a motion captor on it and you are in immersion into different hunting scenarios. Look at www.gaim.com.

If you ever watched the show wild Boar Fever, the hunters crew train themselves with this system (this is the way I discovered this training system that was presented in one of the show, I am not affiliate with Aimpoint). With this system you cannot train reloading, but you can train fast target acquisition on moving games. precise shot placement, etc.. The system will only consider a kill hit if you hit the brain, the backbone, lung or heart. It is fun also with friends and not spending all the off season time on the forum .

Never seen any one load a double with the rifle still mounted. New to me.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Ontario, I’ve never had an issue until trying run the bolt as fast as possible from my shoulder. With larger cases.

For all NA game I was primarily an archery hunter so no double feeding problems there. And when I did rifle hunt. I always concentrated on the first shot and never really considered it critical to rack the bolt at lighting speed.

But im talking NA game smaller then the two big bears. Brown and Polar. I’ve Never been charged by any four legged animals while hunting

So I’m trying to learn the big bore rifle DG fundamentals. I may time myself at the shoulder and then the torso and see which presentation is more accurate and produces zero short strokes and or jams.

To your question, for me. I think it comes from knowing how far back I’ve always needed to pull the bolt on smaller action rifles. And now need to pull further.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Never seen any one load a double with the rifle still mounted. New to me.

Agree

Lon

 

[hoytcanon]

Ontario, I’ve never had an issue until trying run the bolt as fast as possible from my shoulder. With larger cases.

For all NA game I was primarily an archery hunter so no double feeding problems there. And when I did rifle hunt. I always concentrated on the first shot and never really considered it critical to rack the bolt at lighting speed.

But im talking NA game smaller then the two big bears. Brown and Polar. I’ve Never been charged by any four legged animals while hunting

So I’m trying to learn the big bore rifle DG fundamentals. I may time myself at the shoulder and then the torso and see which presentation is more accurate and produces zero short strokes and or jams.

To your question, for me. I think it comes from knowing how far back I’ve always needed to pull the bolt on smaller action rifles. And now need to pull further.

I have had many clients short stroke rifles in the excitement... it happened last spring following up a wounded bear... the bear popped up suddenly behind a blow down, the client rushed and missed, then got flustered and short stroked his Remington 700 .30/06 and jammed it tight... I took his rifle with my left hand and handed him my M77 .450 Marlin with my right hand and said "through the shoulders," the bear went straight down at the shot.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have had many clients short stroke rifles in the excitement... it happened last spring following up a wounded bear... the bear popped up suddenly behind a blow down, the client rushed and missed, then got flustered and short stroked his Remington 700 .30/06 and jammed it tight... I took his rifle with my left hand and handed him my M77 .450 Marlin with my right hand and said "through the shoulders," the bear went straight down at the shot.

Wait ... didn't one of the previous posters claim it's impossible to short stroke jam a Rem 700 because the ejector pushes the empty case from bolt head as soon as the neck clears the receiver ring? I don't own a 700 so have no personal knowledge. I can certainly see how that kind of setup might produce short stroking an empty chamber, but a jam?

 

[Bert the Turtle]

One thing that will for sure jam things up is failing to adequately depress the top round in the magazine while attempting to put a round in the chamber over a full magazine.

 

[reinwood]

Never seen any one load a double with the rifle still mounted. New to me.

not sure where you picked this.
For DR or SS OU shotgun, i agree, i do not see how it is possible to reload rifle mounted.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ontario, I’ve never had an issue until trying run the bolt as fast as possible from my shoulder. With larger cases.

For all NA game I was primarily an archery hunter so no double feeding problems there. And when I did rifle hunt. I always concentrated on the first shot and never really considered it critical to rack the bolt at lighting speed.

But im talking NA game smaller then the two big bears. Brown and Polar. I’ve Never been charged by any four legged animals while hunting

So I’m trying to learn the big bore rifle DG fundamentals. I may time myself at the shoulder and then the torso and see which presentation is more accurate and produces zero short strokes and or jams.

To your question, for me. I think it comes from knowing how far back I’ve always needed to pull the bolt on smaller action rifles. And now need to pull further.

So you have actually been able to short stroke jam your DGR rifle? What make?

The only way possible that I can see that might result in a cycling jam with my 404J standard action 98 Mauser would be if the bolt was drawn back weakly (very weakly) with the gun on its side, causing the empty case to fall back into the action. I have been able to do this while ejecting fully loaded very heavy cartridges but lightweight empty 404 cases are always ejected with such gusto, even with slow cycling, I just don't see it being any kind of potential issue.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Not from the torso. But when cycling the bolt on the shoulder yes.

It could be my massive muscular shoulders and chest are just not allowing that movement

Then again, it may be my poor form

 

[Ontario Hunter]

One thing that will for sure jam things up is failing to adequately depress the top round in the magazine while attempting to put a round in the chamber over a full magazine.

For sure. But that should not be an issue if a buffalo is charging. The shooter will shoot what he has in the gun till it's empty then drop a round in the chamber and close the bolt. No time to be thinking of fully reloading the magazine.

I can push a fourth round down on top of my standard 98's full magazine just enough to get the rim under the extractor. I can then close the bolt without having to manually depress cartridges in the magazine.

 

[Ed Lally]

Unfortunately, while hunting in Africa for 6 of the last 7 years, I have only hunted Cape Buffalo once (so far) in Zimbabwe. I purchased a Krieghoff “Big Five” in .470NE, 180 rounds of ammo at an estate sale, RCBS dies and all the supplies necessary to reload 500 gr TSX and A-Frames. I shot almost 100 rounds at paper at 50 yards off sticks before a visit by my PH got me into a more appropriate training routine. He had me set two targets at 50 yards, about a yard apart and a second set of targets about 15 yards to the right. He had me shoot the left target on the left set offhand, then the left target on the right set, followed by running 15 yards to the right while ejecting, which required tipping the rifle to drop the empties, then reloading and shooting the right target of the left set and then the right target of the right set. His reasoning was that having more than one target at each location forces concentration and decision making. He also suggested that I practice at home with full length snap caps. It took a while but I became proficient with not only shooting offhand but also reloading on the run. I purchased an elastic wrist strap that held 2 .470 rounds on my wrist with the rounds perpendicular to my left forearm to facilitate a quick reload. As it turned out, on my only Buffalo hunt to date, a single broadside shot at a standing buff at 40 yards ended with his reeling around, running about 40 yards toward my wife and the tracker (another story) and piling up followed by a loud death bellow. I have since hunted and taken a Sable, common reedbuck, other game and warthogs with my Krieghoff just because I enjoy hunting more than shooting, though I have since taken more game with my R8 in .375 H&H. I hope to return next year for another Buffalo and will be sure to practice as my PH had directed. Better to be significantly over prepared than just a little bit underprepared.

 

[roklok]

It is not impossible to short stroke a Remington 700, when it happens though it generally is a much more egregious case of short stroking earlier in the bolt cycle. If a shooter gets flustered and tries pushing bolt forward before case is withdrawn enough to eject, in other words mouth of case hasn't cleared front receiver ring, the empty case will not go back in chamber but will jam against side of breech as the plunger ejector is pushing it sideways. Generally when bolt is withdrawn on a second attempt, the case will eject though as long as it is still retained by extractor. Also, when short stroking with a plunger ejector , the bolt will not be able to pick up a second round out of the magazine such as on a lot of actions with standing blade ejector because a plunger will eject the case earlier in the cycle before the bolt can get behind the next round. I just checked my two 98 clones, a 1950 era commercial FN 98 7x57 and a 2000s era Zastava 98 in .375 H&H. Both with loaded rounds in magazine seated rearward against back wall of box. Both will "double feed", or pick up loaded round out of box before the standing blade ejects the empty. Both also will not eject the empty case when bolt is withdrawn slowly against the bolt stop. When bolt is withdrawn slowly on both 98s, the case will pop loose but just lay in action. Running the bolt briskly will eject cases 15 feet. A properly operating plunger ejector will clear cases the same no matter how fast or slow the bolt is run.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

It is not impossible to short stroke a Remington 700, when it happens though it generally is a much more egregious case of short stroking earlier in the bolt cycle. If a shooter gets flustered and tries pushing bolt forward before case is withdrawn enough to eject, in other words mouth of case hasn't cleared front receiver ring, the empty case will not go back in chamber but will jam against side of breech as the plunger ejector is pushing it sideways. Generally when bolt is withdrawn on a second attempt, the case will eject though as long as it is still retained by extractor. Also, when short stroking with a plunger ejector , the bolt will not be able to pick up a second round out of the magazine such as on a lot of actions with standing blade ejector because a plunger will eject the case earlier in the cycle before the bolt can get behind the next round. I just checked my two 98 clones, a 1950 era commercial FN 98 7x57 and a 2000s era Zastava 98 in .375 H&H. Both with loaded rounds in magazine seated rearward against back wall of box. Both will "double feed", or pick up loaded round out of box before the standing blade ejects the empty. Both also will not eject the empty case when bolt is withdrawn slowly against the bolt stop. When bolt is withdrawn slowly on both 98s, the case will pop loose but just lay in action. Running the bolt briskly will eject cases 15 feet. A properly operating plunger ejector will clear cases the same no matter how fast or slow the bolt is run.

Sometimes, albeit rarely, loaded ammo will fail to completely eject from my vz.24 Mauser if cycling is weak but these are great big heavy 404 rounds. The empty cases fly into the next zip code every time even when bolt is drawn back very slowly. When I purchased this Mauser action it was rebarreled to 30-06 with modified bolt handle. Unclear whether the ejector was also modified but I seriously doubt it. I never touched the ejector when I modified the action to cycle 404J. And as I said, I simply cannot get the bolt back past the rim of next round in the magazine without the fired case being ejected. Impossible. Just more evidence confirming not all Mauser 98 design actions are the same.

 

[roklok]

Interesting. I have googled extended Mauser 98 ejectors, but didn't come up with anything. It seems as though the ejector blade should be longer to kick case out earlier in bolt cycle. Ontario Hunter, on your 404, does the ejector blade extend past the bolt when bolt is fully open ? On both my 98s, the ejector blade is flush with the projection on left side of bolt face.

 

[hoytcanon]

It is not impossible to short stroke a Remington 700, when it happens though it generally is a much more egregious case of short stroking earlier in the bolt cycle. If a shooter gets flustered and tries pushing bolt forward before case is withdrawn enough to eject, in other words mouth of case hasn't cleared front receiver ring, the empty case will not go back in chamber but will jam against side of breech as the plunger ejector is pushing it sideways. Generally when bolt is withdrawn on a second attempt, the case will eject though as long as it is still retained by extractor. Also, when short stroking with a plunger ejector , the bolt will not be able to pick up a second round out of the magazine such as on a lot of actions with standing blade ejector because a plunger will eject the case earlier in the cycle before the bolt can get behind the next round. I just checked my two 98 clones, a 1950 era commercial FN 98 7x57 and a 2000s era Zastava 98 in .375 H&H. Both with loaded rounds in magazine seated rearward against back wall of box. Both will "double feed", or pick up loaded round out of box before the standing blade ejects the empty. Both also will not eject the empty case when bolt is withdrawn slowly against the bolt stop. When bolt is withdrawn slowly on both 98s, the case will pop loose but just lay in action. Running the bolt briskly will eject cases 15 feet. A properly operating plunger ejector will clear cases the same no matter how fast or slow the bolt is run.

I suspect that is exactly what happened... it was jammed tight... there was no time to fuss with clearing it, so the rifle swap was made "gunbearer" style.... I have seen plenty of CRF get short stroked and jam two bullets in tight.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Interesting. I have googled extended Mauser 98 ejectors, but didn't come up with anything. It seems as though the ejector blade should be longer to kick case out earlier in bolt cycle. Ontario Hunter, on your 404, does the ejector blade extend past the bolt when bolt is fully open ? On both my 98s, the ejector blade is flush with the projection on left side of bolt face.

I'll have a look. Here's an image.

The ejector blade does not appear to be extended much if any beyond the keepers on the bolt face. The slot in the receiver ahead of the blade is to allow it to fold out of the way when bolt is closed. Looking down into action I can see that the ejector blade when deployed is ahead of the rear of magazine box.

I did carve some metal from inside of the rear ring to allow thicker 404 cases to eject cleanly. This was on the ejection side behind the ejection/loading port. Care is required to avoid removing too much metal or the extractor will slip out of its channel when the bolt is closed. Then extractor rotates with the bolt and action cannot be opened. If too much metal is removed, special order a magnum length spring.

 

[Franco]

Not having the benefit of the hunting or shooting experience shared by the majority of you here on the forum, I am trying to correlate the title of this thread to the video and why there is ample justification to dislike a double.

First of all, I must commend all individuals involved for sharing the video, and surviving the ordeal. Hat's off to the PH - he protected his client, the client hung in there, and how about the cameraman - damn!

My experience lies in aviation, and some of my time was spent teaching and evaluating scenarios not unlike the one depicted in the video. Basically, a plan went to hell but the outcome was still successful.

The FAA instituted a program called ASAP - the Aviation Safety Action Program (ASAP), its' purpose: "To enhance aviation safety through the prevention of accidents and incidents. Its focus is to encourage voluntary reporting of safety issues and events that come to the attention of employees of certain certificate holders".

The outcome of a successful ASAP debrief could be a change or implementation of a procedure, or corrective training. The focus was directed more towards the system rather than fault the individual; although at times, it was obvious the result was due to established procedures not being followed.

Like an accident or incident, the "event" would be broken down to determine root cause and contributing factors.

Staying within the context of the tile, the focus seems to be on the actions taken once the wounded animal charges.

The PH has a double, the client - a scoped, bolt action.

I've tried to follow the sequence of who shot when and was it a hit or miss, but to be honest I can't be 100%.

What I see/hear/assume, is the PH gets 1 shot off as the buffalo charges and does an ole´ to get out of the way, the client manages a shot, over the top of the scope, as it passes the PH, and the buffalo stops and spins right - facing away from the client.

The client attempts another shot but his rifle jambs, and I hear 2 shots - 1, right after the client's shot, the other just a bit later. I see 2 bullet strikes in the ground - one right of the buffalo, the other on the left.

The buffalo completes the turn to face the PH as he moves from right to left, the client appears to move off left. The PH is loading on the run.

The buffalo begins another charge, and you can hear another shot and see the strike - I assume that shot came from the client.

The camera pans out to show the client moving left, the buffalo stops as the PH shoots and drops him.

All I can say is "Shit-hot", well done, and the problem is what?

The discussions which follow the video seem to point out the time it takes to reload a double, and extol the benefits of a bolt gun.

Here are my questions:

Who fired the shots where the actual shooter is not shown on camera?

Did the PH fire them?

Once the initial charge commenced, given the time the PH had to shoot - what benefit would a bolt gun have offered?

Not to revive the bolt vs double debates I've read on this forum and experienced in camp, but in this particular situation - the bolt gun jammed. So what's worse - the time it takes to reload a double or the time it takes to clear a jamb?

Assuming I follow the "ifs" correctly as it pertains to the short comings of a double, "IF" the PH had a bolt gun he would have had more shots available to deal with the charge. But what if his first shot from the double had stopped the buffalo?

"IF" the client had a double instead of his bolt gun, he would have had a 2nd shot as the buffalo passed the PH instead of a jamb. But what if his first shot from his bolt rifle had stopped the buffalo?

Root cause and contributing factors? If we continue with the "What If", what if the very first shot had dropped the buffalo, OR, what if that shot hadn't been taken?

We had a policy when reviewing events - NO "What If's". No judgements after the fact and no critique with more information than what was available to those involved when it happened.

The PH and client made the decision to take that first shot and it was theirs alone to make.

Just my opinion, but when anyone of us takes a first shot, we do so knowing we own whatever happens next, and we all know the possibilities.

Those guys accomplished what they set out - they got a buffalo.

 

[Sourdough]

@Foxi apparently I'm missing point as to why you don't like doubles. Please elaborate. By my count the PH got in four shots (with a double) and the client two shots (with a bolt gun).

 

[IvW]

Ammo is slow and typical round nosed jacketed solids are useless in this case.
You are limited to regulated ammo.
They are extremely expensive.
You have to look down to reload.
You cannot reload it in the shoulder.
After 2 your gun is empty.....

A well built bolt and experienced ph would not have the same issue as the client.
I use a 500 Jeff premium expanders only for buff. Normal load is 570gr. Currently ecperimenting with 600gr to get the sd up to .330...