Sticks or no sticks?

[mdwest]

On another popular hunting forum you can read where these guys will cut their toothbrushes in half to save weight.

lol... stole that idea from Dick Marcinko's vietnam era SEAL stories I would guess.... (he talks about doing that in his book Rogue Warrior)...

We'll be working out of a tent camp for the time Im there.. so I'll just be carrying a day pack while Im elk hunting... I'll be keeping my full sized toothbrush and full sized tube of tooth paste in a duffle back in camp

 

[C.W. Richter]

lol... stole that idea from Dick Marcinko's vietnam era SEAL stories I would guess.... (he talks about doing that in his book Rogue Warrior)...

We'll be working out of a tent camp for the time Im there.. so I'll just be carrying a day pack while Im elk hunting... I'll be keeping my full sized toothbrush and full sized tube of tooth paste in a duffle back in camp

Airlines & Hotels stole the idea long ago! LOL for "weight" savings, of course. I almost swallowed one. Blast from the Past (a guy at work used to recycle Dickie Marcinko's books to me after he'd read them!) The post-war stoppings of terrorist plane hijackings of he/his team really hit home! That seemed to happen a lot in the 70s!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Many hunters buy the (too short) benchrest model bipods (6"-12"), but I far prefer the longer (30ish") versions that can shoot from about 12" to 2.5' which work perfectly in high grass as well as sitting atop rocks or in other open areas. Many phenomenal shots made w/ 'em. It's akin to a lower-profile, quieter shooting stick with the shooter as the third-leg anchor of the "sticks." I like the Harris Ultralight for long walk mountain hunts, spot/stalk and even varmint hunting. Very easily adjusted for height and sloping ground and in some models you may even rotate the rifle to level. They weigh 2 lbs and even add to rifle accuracy vis-a-vis the extra mass. This is how we'd practice w/ our mid-bore rifles in Summertime... View attachment 627716View attachment 627717

The problem with bipod, especially the longer extension models, is they are bulky. They can seriously throw the balance of rifle out of whack. Try carrying a forward heavy rifle all day in the ready position. Very hard on neck, shoulder, and upper back. Been there! Attached bipods are also prone to snagging brush in heavy cover. I tried carrying my shorter bipod in daypack to attach as needed. Well, that is NOT a quick setup. Cost me a nice mule deer buck right around the corner. By the time I could get my sling detached, bipod out of the pack, and the bloody fiddly SOB finally attached to my rifle's sling swivel stud, the herd of deer was chased off by a coyote. I fixed that bastard's wagon the next morning. Shot on the run at fifty yards.

I think the answer is a tacticool true quick detach bipod that hooks up to pic rail. Then buy a small pic-rail adapter that attaches to sling stud. These have a stud on top for attaching sling. The tac bipod can simply be clamped onto the rail adapter with quick levers as needed. Kinda unsightly but I'm sure it would work.

The beveling bipods do NOT work. No matter how tight I crank on the knob, it will not stay locked in place. I've even used vicegrip pliers! This one also marked my stock. The vinyl pads that came on it were a joke to start with. One fell off and I replaced with thick leather. But this contraption will likely never go back on my rifle. Pretty much useless. Caldwell brand.

 

[Tra3]

The location dictates what tools are used. In Minnesota, the longest shot I can take from my deer stands in the woods is about 50-60 yards. Offhand works there. But, lots of people mess that up.
In Montana, where I grew up and hunt every year, a bipod is a necessary item. The grass is shorter and the terrain permits a 8-14” bipod. I’ve started using sticks because I like them. The quad sticks are useful for walking and glassing. You almost always have time to shoot something that is bumped up close, mule deer like to stop at 200 yards and look back. Sticks work great, but if the ground is clear a pack or bipod is better in the prone position. Why take a risk of a bad shot by shooting offhand?
When I teach/guide newer hunters, I definitely don’t let them shoot offhand. It is simply smart to take every action you can to make a better shot.

For any newer or intermediate hunters reading this, go shoot a couple hundred big game animals with proper rests. Then you can understand what your margin of error is in a field situation and make a good decision on if you want to try and shoot stuff off hand. Some people are blessed with perfection-level shooting skills, I am not one of them. So I use a rest, a bipod or sticks.

 

[BryceM]

After watching people miss the whole animal with offhand 10 yard coup de grâce shots, all sorts of things pop into my head.

Shooting sticks are a tool. There's a time and a place for each tool in the toolkit. Yes, pliers can be used as a hammer, but it ain't pretty. Better perhaps to learn all of them.

Lately I've been playing with my new Blaser quad-sticks. Pretty impressive, says I.

 

[rookhawk]

Not much more can be said about the value of sticks beyond what sage advice is written over the past three pages. A few minor comments might be worth amplifying:

1.) Sticks are not intuitive. You actually need to learn how to use them. People miss and make all sorts of noise trying to palm their forestock while on sticks, feeling your own pulse shaking the rifle. With a “real” stick, whether African improvised or an ASC set, you’re holding the sticks with the left hand, driving the stock into your shoulder so you can have a gentle shooters grip to get a proper trigger pull. That takes a bit of practice to figure out how to actually shoot off sticks well, then it’s easy.

2.) We have terrible sticks in the USA. I hated them when I used my primos aluminum/plastic ones years ago. They’d dent, stick, slide when they should lock, and swivel when they shouldn’t. Many people that curse sticks are cursing the gimmicky ones in the States having never tried a homemade wood pair, or an ASC set.

3.) You and your gun can’t be great at everything. If you have a stalking/safari rifle with a low comb, a small optic, and low rings, the gun is coming up to your eye for a snap shot. Guns stocked in this manner work wonderfully off shooting sticks where a shooter is standing erect. Conversely, I remember laying prone 300-400’ up a goma preparing an ambush shot on an Eland in the flay below. I had never shot my stalking rifle prone and it was quite a trick to actually get my face onto my safari rifle with that posture because it really wasn’t stocked for a prone shot shooting down at a 45 degree angle. The alternative to all of this is a typical high-comb montecarlo style stock as sold on virtually every modern tactical bolt rifle at Cabelas. Those high-comb models work great with high rings and big scopes from a bench, and they work fine shooting prone, but do not work very well at all for a fast shot off sticks. Bottom line, have the right tool for the job at hand.

 

[grand veneur]

I think that the discussion here is mainly about shooting with the rifle on a bench, among others things sticks.

At a certain distance, every shooter should place his rifle on something stable, but what is used should not matter. In Africa, sticks in the form of a tripod have become a symbol. There is hardly a picture where a hunting group can be seen in the bush without someone carrying something like that. Ultimately, it should be up to each individual to decide with what he or she shoots best.

I really don't like shooting from sticks and therefore always try to find another way to get a good shot placement. I took all of the very long shots, especially in the mountains, while lying down with the rifle on my backpack. In Africa I also shot some game offhand at short distances, but trees and branches, or even termite mounds were often used as shooting rests, rather than sticks. My binoculars already served as a support for shooting lying down from such a termite mound.

I find sticks too unstable.

 

[JP50]

The other advantage to using sticks- recent trip to SA.My PH used the inverted sticks to make us look like an Oryx on the open hill to get close to the Mountain Zebra . Frontal shot at 365 yds on open hill would not of been possible without the use of sticks- Zebra was dead before it hit the ground.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The other advantage to using sticks- recent trip to SA.My PH used the inverted sticks to make us look like an Oryx on the open hill to get close to the Mountain Zebra . Frontal shot at 365 yds on open hill would not of been possible without the use of sticks- Zebra was dead before it hit the ground.

Interesting. I noticed zebra and gemsbuck like to hang together. Zebra are nervous buggers and everything within a mile radius will know it when they're spooked.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The problem with bipod, especially the longer extension models, is they are bulky. They can seriously throw the balance of rifle out of whack. Try carrying a forward heavy rifle all day in the ready position. Very hard on neck, shoulder, and upper back. Been there! Attached bipods are also prone to snagging brush in heavy cover. I tried carrying my shorter bipod in daypack to attach as needed. Well, that is NOT a quick setup. Cost me a nice mule deer buck right around the corner. By the time I could get my sling detached, bipod out of the pack, and the bloody fiddly SOB finally attached to my rifle's sling swivel stud, the herd of deer was chased off by a coyote. I fixed that bastard's wagon the next morning. Shot on the run at fifty yards.
View attachment 627796
I think the answer is a tacticool true quick detach bipod that hooks up to pic rail. Then buy a small pic-rail adapter that attaches to sling stud. These have a stud on top for attaching sling. The tac bipod can simply be clamped onto the rail adapter with quick levers as needed. Kinda unsightly but I'm sure it would work.

The beveling bipods do NOT work. No matter how tight I crank on the knob, it will not stay locked in place. I've even used vicegrip pliers! This one also marked my stock. The vinyl pads that came on it were a joke to start with. One fell off and I replaced with thick leather. But this contraption will likely never go back on my rifle. Pretty much useless. Caldwell brand.
View attachment 627798

This item by Vanguard seems to be what I've been looking for.

It's a quick detach bipod that extends to 28" for either prone or sitting position. The pic-rail adapter connects to sling swivel stud and has another stud on back end so sling does not need to be removed and won't get tangled up in bipod when attached. At 13" collapsed it would fit in my daypack. I don't think it would be terribly applicable in Africa where I'm hunting with a crew that can carry sticks (maybe for springbuck), but should work very nicely solo stalkng the plains of the American West. Sometimes I can spot game in time to snap on a bipod and finish the stalk. However, I prefer to work up and down the "breaks" in the bottoms, checking each side draw carefully. Works best on windy days (and it's always windy!). This buck last fall was one of the longest shots (maybe THE longest) at only 220 yards from sitting position. He saw me when I saw him so attaching a bipod would not have been possible.

Shooting standing on the sticks is fine but not nearly as stable as sitting, in my opinion. Lower to the ground means less angle for potential movement ("weaving"), especially if the wind is blowing. I suppose if one practiced enough, it might be possible to get into a stable sitting position fairly quickly ... if in good physical condition. I don't practice the sitting position (because I really don't like it). Nevertheless, I am surprised how quickly I got on my butt and set up for this buck last fall. It had to be a quick shot! I'm old and not as agile as I used to be. Fortunately, not much of a spare tire hanging in front. A big gut would definitely be an impediment.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Airlines & Hotels stole the idea long ago! LOL for "weight" savings, of course. I almost swallowed one. Blast from the Past (a guy at work used to recycle Dickie Marcinko's books to me after he'd read them!) The post-war stoppings of terrorist plane hijackings of he/his team really hit home! That seemed to happen a lot in the 70s!

Then there was the guy from North Dakota who tried to hijack a bus to Cuba. He didn't have enough money for a plane ticket. Somehow I don't think Navy SEALs were needed to foil his plan.

 

[DG870]

I’ve used the Primos Steady Stix for 20+ years. They are light weight, fold up to about 14” so they fit in my hunting vest and they are easy to deploy. Assembled, they are 36” long, so depending on how far you spread the legs you can easily adjust the height.

The 3 sections are joined together by elastic shock cords so to deploy you just open up and the sections will snap together. You can use them in either the sitting or kneeling position and in a pinch you can use them to help take pictures in the field.

 

[VertigoBE]

1.) Sticks are not intuitive. You actually need to learn how to use them. People miss and make all sorts of noise trying to palm their forestock while on sticks, feeling your own pulse shaking the rifle. With a “real” stick, whether African improvised or an ASC set, you’re holding the sticks with the left hand, driving the stock into your shoulder so you can have a gentle shooters grip to get a proper trigger pull. That takes a bit of practice to figure out how to actually shoot off sticks well, then it’s easy.

I would also add that it is best to check with your PH upon arrival if he or she knows how to use those sticks and set them up correctly for you. Most know tripods, but not all know already how to work with quadsticks.

 

[HookMeUpII]

There are situations where you might not be able to shoot off sticks due to time. I will say, I cannot claim I would have shot as good as I did had I not had sticks.

Prior to going, I was just using the Primos Triggerstix Tripod for practice. I wasn't buying $500 African sticks. I wanted the Primos ones for here to collapse them and backpack around if necessary.

When I got there, my PH had the same sticks. 5 shots, 5 dead animals. I was happy.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I would also add that it is best to check with your PH upon arrival if he or she knows how to use those sticks and set them up correctly for you. Most know tripods, but not all know already how to work with quadsticks.

Good point. On the last safari we are going after buffalo and my PH has extension tripod sticks ... that he carried collapsed! What the ...? When we were finally closing in on the herd in thick stuff, he decided to stop and deploy the legs as quietly as possible. Not quiet enough apparently. On the second day the tracker just didn't give them back after first encounter and thereafter he carried the sticks extended.

Quad sticks are great for specific situations. Even then it can be a challenge for an experienced PH to get them set up just right, especially if the objective is not standing stark still. Resetting them can be, and in my experience usually is, a pain. Requires a whole lot of movement = increased risk of detection, especially when hunting herd animals. Uneven ground, sloping terrain, brush and rocks grabbing the legs can all make resetting quad sticks a challenge. I'm fumbling with obstacles and PH has to jump in and give a hand. Doubles the movement. From now on if the PH has quad sticks and target is a hundred yards or less, I'm taking the animal offhand. If 100 to 200 yards and terrain/ground cover allows, I'm shooting from sitting position, not quad sticks. I am much steadier sitting on the ground.

 

[HookMeUpII]

Good point. On the last safari we are going after buffalo and my PH has extension tripod sticks ... that he carried collapsed! What the ...? When we were finally closing in on the herd in thick stuff, he decided to stop and deploy the legs as quietly as possible. Not quiet enough apparently. On the second day the tracker just didn't give them back after first encounter and thereafter he carried the sticks extended.

Quad sticks are great for specific situations. Even then it can be a challenge for an experienced PH to get them set up just right, especially if the objective is not standing stark still. Resetting them can be, and in my experience usually is, a pain. Requires a whole lot of movement = increased risk of detection, especially when hunting herd animals. Uneven ground, sloping terrain, brush and rocks grabbing the legs can all make resetting quad sticks a challenge. I'm fumbling with obstacles and PH has to jump in and give a hand. Doubles the movement. From now on if the PH has quad sticks and target is a hundred yards or less, I'm taking the animal offhand. If 100 to 200 yards and terrain/ground cover allows, I'm shooting from sitting position, not quad sticks. I am much steadier sitting on the ground.

It's an arguable irony that your PH might need to actually be more familiar with the sticks than you do. They do 75% of the important stuff with them.

 

[Tra3]

Good point. On the last safari we are going after buffalo and my PH has extension tripod sticks ... that he carried collapsed! What the ...? When we were finally closing in on the herd in thick stuff, he decided to stop and deploy the legs as quietly as possible. Not quiet enough apparently. On the second day the tracker just didn't give them back after first encounter and thereafter he carried the sticks extended.

Quad sticks are great for specific situations. Even then it can be a challenge for an experienced PH to get them set up just right, especially if the objective is not standing stark still. Resetting them can be, and in my experience usually is, a pain. Requires a whole lot of movement = increased risk of detection, especially when hunting herd animals. Uneven ground, sloping terrain, brush and rocks grabbing the legs can all make resetting quad sticks a challenge. I'm fumbling with obstacles and PH has to jump in and give a hand. Doubles the movement. From now on if the PH has quad sticks and target is a hundred yards or less, I'm taking the animal offhand. If 100 to 200 yards and terrain/ground cover allows, I'm shooting from sitting position, not quad sticks. I am much steadier sitting on the ground.

If one practices with quad sticks, they are great and one can get very proficient with them.

If one does not practice with them, they are inferior to a tripod and more difficult. The key is practice. If you don’t own quad sticks and don’t use them, I wouldn’t suggest trying to learn on a buffalo hunt.

My first experience(s) with quad sticks was clumsy. It took practice. Now, I am regularly surprised with how accurate they are.

 

[One Day...]

If you want to find YOUR own answer, it is easy: test yourself...

And it does not even have to be long or expensive, 2 hours at any 100-yard range or appropriate place with a .22 LR, a brick of 50 rounds, and a few dessert paper plates (6") will do.

Since it is about oneself, I can only share my own experience, but it is enlightening... and humbling...

1) Standing off hand
At 100 yards, standing off hand, it is a very, very good day for me if I hit the 6" steel plate 50%+ of the time, and some of the misses are wild (we are talking feet, not inches), and some of the hits are pure luck.
In my own set of ethics, this is unacceptable performance for ethical hunting.

Note 1: driven wild boar on the run at 25 yards is different, and easier if you can swing, but few shots are really clean, and the 9.3x62, common in Europe for these hunts, buys you a bit of time for a quick finisher.

Note 2: I am sure many folks do a lot better, and that is fine with me.

2) Keeling with left elbow on left knee and seating on my right ankle, with the hasty sling (I am right handed)
Note: Having been trained in the French military, kneeling with one elbow rest is what I learned. Then I shot .22 LR "Three Position" for years. I understand that the US military teaches seating with both elbows rested on both knees held off the ground. I have tried. Somehow it does not feel natural to me (force of habit?), and my left knee is nowhere near as immobile off the ground in a seating position as it is a kneeling position. To each our own based on our training...

At 100 yards, kneeling, I commonly hit the 6" steel plate about 80%+ of the time, and the misses would probably ring an 8" plate (based on similar tests on 12" paper plates).
Considering that most game the size of white tailed deer have a 12" vital area, I consider it acceptable to take close-range kneeling shots on the fly on fleeting wounded game during a follow up.

3) Tripod sticks
At 100 yards, on the tripod sticks, I commonly hit the 6" steel plate about 90%+ of the time.
However, the rate drops to around 80% at 200 yards and around 75% on a good day at 300 yards.
This became my standard shooting position after I discovered the PH sticks in Africa, but I avoid tripod sticks now.

4) Quadpod sticks
At 100 yards, on the quadpod sticks, I hit the 6" steel plate virtually 100% of the time.
The rate still drops at 200 and 300 yards, but I typically stay in the 90% range, and since virtually anything one would shoot at 300 yards has a 12" to 18" vital area (remember, I shoot a 6" steel plate), I consider this acceptable.
I now bring my own quadpod sticks to Africa. Mine are the carbon fiber 4 Stable Sticks.


Notes on bipod prone...
Having gone through regimental sniper training, and having continued shooting long range steel regularly my entire life, with an accurate laser range finder, a barometer/altimeter/wind gauge (Kestrel), a BDC scope, and plenty of time, I hit the 8" steel plate close to 100% at 300 yards (ah! but the wind down range.........) and generally the 12" plate 80%+ at 500 yards.
HOWEVER, it only takes 18" low brushes to make it impossible to use a correct prone position in flat land, and I have only once had the opportunity to shoot prone in Africa (see PS1).

I have zero experience with seating height bipod. Maybe I should try. But since my quadsticks adjust effortlessly to seating height...

Note on field rests...
Leaning/crawling/wrapping oneself on a convenient 4 to 5 ft round boulder, with the day pack under the rifle forend, precision and accuracy can reach prone level. I have used this position many times in mountain hunting, in Africa and elsewhere, and I leave the sticks aside if I can achieve it.

Similarly, seating with the forend resting on a bush/small tree branch of just the right strength and at just the right height, or grabbing firmly forend and small diameter trunk, precision and accuracy can also be very high. But this is not a common situation.


So, there you have it, my own answer, for myself, based on my own shooting data, is that I do not shoot standing offhand; very rarely kneeling; do not bring a bipod to Africa, but my shooting improves enough with the quadsticks over the tripod that I bring my own to Africa just to be sure to have one set on hand.


PS1: I do not take shots off the sticks (tripod or quadpod) at more than 300 yards (just hunt closer...) and I do not take shots prone more than 400+ yards - 500 yards at the outmost, and it is a rare shot indeed: exactly one in Africa, and I only took it because the fading light made it a "take this shot or go home" only option, and nature provided me a near ideal position (well grazed plateau, perfect size rock under the forend + folded knit cap to absorb vibrations, second perfect size rock under the buttstock heel, no wind at dusk, plenty of time).

PS2: I am sure that many folks on this forum shoot better than I do, and all the power to them, but I have also seen many bruised ego during shooting sessions with friends who sincerely believed that they shot a lot better than they actually did. Apparently, self-indulging opinions are a lot easier to formulate (and a lot more forgiving) than collecting objective data... If you doubt that, Jim Harmer has some very "interesting" segments on 500 yards hunting-conditions shooting challenges on his Backfire.tv channel...

 

[OxfordTheCat]

Using a collapsible Primos Trigger Stick this year for the first time in the bear hunt, and won't go without in future.

Always considered myself a decent shot, especially doing the sling wrap, and can manage minute of saucer offhand just fine; but the sticks are far more stable.