SOUTH AFRICA: Question For Tootabi Hunting Safaris

[dobber]

the manner in which this is brought to light, and I am only one man, never actually talked to Loodt and I don't do facebook (waiting till it gets popular before I join)
Did the first time a hunt was posted become the issue? was it the second? did people wait till the 10th? is there a magic number?
He did wrong, no question, not here to debate that, he will fix it or it will fix him, I think we all agree on that

Comments about cheap hunts are nothing but cheap shots within this thread, I looked, and he is about mid to low range as others who have posted that offer a similar service. Sure hope the outfitters who seem to me (on the outside looking in) to be on this continuing quest, never have had a negative hunt report, regardless of who's fault it was, because it would be way too easy for some people to jump to the conclusion that you aren't a good operator. Others mind you would understand the circumstances in regards to a one in a thousand negative reports.

I need to clarify as well that I have not booked any hunts, I have emailed people about hunts, and received emails back, the list of operators I would use in the future has gotten smaller just based on comments within this thread, my hunt though when I am set to make the choice will be for 2015

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

the manner in which this is brought to light, and I am only one man, never actually talked to Loodt and I don't do facebook (waiting till it gets popular before I join)
Did the first time a hunt was posted become the issue? was it the second? did people wait till the 10th? is there a magic number?
He did wrong, no question, not here to debate that, he will fix it or it will fix him, I think we all agree on that

Comments about cheap hunts are nothing but cheap shots within this thread, I looked, and he is about mid to low range as others who have posted that offer a similar service. Sure hope the outfitters who seem to me (on the outside looking in) to be on this continuing quest, never have had a negative hunt report, regardless of who's fault it was, because it would be way too easy for some people to jump to the conclusion that you aren't a good operator. Others mind you would understand the circumstances in regards to a one in a thousand negative reports.

I need to clarify as well that I have not booked any hunts, I have emailed people about hunts, and received emails back, the list of operators I would use in the future has gotten smaller just based on comments within this thread, my hunt though when I am set to make the choice will be for 2015

I think unfortunately that the use of the word "cheap" was perhaps taken out of the context in how it was meant. One potential indicator of a hunt that one should be leery about is one that is priced significantly below average. As has been discussed in another thread, a lower priced hunt can be such for any number of reasons, not all of which are indicating there's a problem.

But as one who has been there and done that and got shafted by using price as the primary consideration, it can be ONE indication that you may be buying into a problem. As one outfitter said to me, "A low priced hunt can turn into an expensive walk in the bush."

In my opinion, if a person comes across a hunt that is significantly priced below average you owe it to yourself to ask why? The answer may in fact be totally legitimate and there is no problem but that also MAY not be the case.

 

[dobber]

In my opinion, if a person comes across a hunt that is significantly priced below average you owe it to yourself to ask why? The answer may in fact be totally legitimate and there is no problem but that also MAY not be the case.

couldn't agree more, and within this thread and a cross reference on outfitter pricing, they are all within the same range in regards to any offers, albeit against the rules which I am not shying away from (that's the only issue here)

 

[billc]

guilt or innocence in a court of law is not what this is about- Does not even make sense to me.How did he do something illegal if the court system has not found him guilty then He is accused of doing illegal things.I am suppose just think he s guilty with out be charged by the wildlife people then.

He is being found guilty by some of selling hunts.First fact I did not book a hunt from an ad on here or anywwhere else.Fact two have not paid a penny or signed any contract.Fact three we talked about a hunt which I hope to take with him.Did not see in that law were he could not talk about hunting with me and plan something for the future.

Questioning motives of other outfitters.Why do I well lets start with the comments you talked about from another site.I would have sent you a pm but your hell bent on bucking the system. comment of dave.That is based on what he heard from two outfitters that loodt did not answer back about the tootabi name and copying a website.Could dave have sent a pm to find out more from loodt yes.As a member of phasa there is a goal of (TO PROMOTE AND FACILITATE THE EMPOWERMENT OF ALL SOUTH AFRICANS WISHING TO PARTICIPATE IN THE HUNTING PROFESSION,CONSERVATION AND RELATED ACTIVITES.Did that get done by posting everything here before talking with loodt.Should he have tried to talk with loodt before jumping in with all his facts that maybe not even be true anymore.Why would I not think it was about $$$$$$$$$$$ to not think that could be a reason behind all this is just bs to me.

Three guys gang up on one who happens to be trying to start in there area.He make offers that have people talking about him.Then talk about cheap hunts being bad starts .Once the word cheap is talked about I see $$$$$$$$$$$$ being involved in a reason why the post could have started.Again could a private message have been done to try and work some stuff out.Maybe but it was easier to make the post the way this one started.

The post about bushwack was to let people know to ask about everything in that policy about deposit.I never said he was guilty of breaking any laws just of not being a human being.Those that think he was right to do so are the same that make the comments about cheap hunts.Again that shows me it is about $$$$$$$$$$$$.

As for ah I think it is the best dam hunting site on the web.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

guilt or innocence in a court of law is not what this is about- Does not even make sense to me.How did he do something illegal if the court system has not found him guilty then He is accused of doing illegal things.I am suppose just think he s guilty with out be charged by the wildlife people then.

He is being found guilty by some of selling hunts.First fact I did not book a hunt from an ad on here or anywwhere else.Fact two have not paid a penny or signed any contract.Fact three we talked about a hunt which I hope to take with him.Did not see in that law were he could not talk about hunting with me and plan something for the future.

Questioning motives of other outfitters.Why do I well lets start with the comments you talked about from another site.I would have sent you a pm but your hell bent on bucking the system. comment of dave.That is based on what he heard from two outfitters that loodt did not answer back about the tootabi name and copying a website.Could dave have sent a pm to find out more from loodt yes.As a member of phasa there is a goal of (TO PROMOTE AND FACILITATE THE EMPOWERMENT OF ALL SOUTH AFRICANS WISHING TO PARTICIPATE IN THE HUNTING PROFESSION,CONSERVATION AND RELATED ACTIVITES.Did that get done by posting everything here before talking with loodt.Should he have tried to talk with loodt before jumping in with all his facts that maybe not even be true anymore.Why would I not think it was about $$$$$$$$$$$ to not think that could be a reason behind all this is just bs to me.

Three guys gang up on one who happens to be trying to start in there area.He make offers that have people talking about him.Then talk about cheap hunts being bad starts .Once the word cheap is talked about I see $$$$$$$$$$$$ being involved in a reason why the post could have started.Again could a private message have been done to try and work some stuff out.Maybe but it was easier to make the post the way this one started.

The post about bushwack was to let people know to ask about everything in that policy about deposit.I never said he was guilty of breaking any laws just of not being a human being.Those that think he was right to do so are the same that make the comments about cheap hunts.Again that shows me it is about $$$$$$$$$$$$.

As for ah I think it is the best dam hunting site on the web.

I'm running a bit busy with things, so I'll keep this short.

Bill, to me this website and PHASA share some similar goals and purposes. Neither of which is to determine whether or not someone broke the law. That is for a court to decide. However when questionable actions come to the knowledge of PHASA members or even just plain AH members, it should be brought to light. Once again Loodt has confirmed the accusations made. You don't seem to acknowledge this fact and I can't seem to understand why this is.

As far as guilt/innocence, in theory at least, one has to have committed a crime before you can be found guilty in the court, no?

My sincere hope in this is that Loodt has made some mistakes out of youthful exuberance, that he will learn from those mistakes, get his house in order and move on to be a successful outfitter/PH. I also sincerely hope that if you do go on a hunt with Loodt that all will be in order and that you aren't unwittingly caught up in any issues.

 

[billc]

I never said he did not break a rule.I am saying he is not guilty of all some are saying.No one has hunted with him yet so no illegal hunts have happen.

If Phasa stands for what they say the phrase I posted early should have been followed also.Dave took the word of two guys that complained.Since dave decide to get in the middle he should have talked with loodt also.Getting his side of the story also not just one side of the story.Maybe he could have helped loodt figure something out and stopped all this from getting to this point.Going by what he said he just decided since he did not answer the two other guys he did not need to bother asking loodt anything.Something just does not sound right with how all that went down to me.

As the comment a crime most happen to be found guilty in court.Change the words anyway you like but innocent till found guilty is how the law works.Even if he said he did wrong that does not equal guilt in the laws eye all the time.

My problem is everyone is acting like he had no plans to get permits at all.He has started applying and was totally planning on being a legal outfitter.I was told the truth about he was waiting on permits yet and anyone i talked with was told the same.Some seem to be acting like what he did was like catching a guy who just poached a rhino.Like they all know he had no plans on getting all permits needed.

 

[billc]

If someone can show me why I should not think money was not behind some of why this started I am all ears.I do know some on here had us possible client of loodts in mind to save us from trouble and not the money.I thank all that were watching out for us but for sure not all were.

As for the comment about taking the ph coarse to learn not to sell cheaps hunts. I never heard a dumber reason for taking a coarse in my lifetime.If that is what they teach I just lost some respect for what they must teach.I am sure must went to learn how to be a ph not a banker.I am glad to see some either slept through that part or did not buy that bs they tried to teach.I would never get back to hunt south africa with what some charge.

As for cheap hunt maybe there is a reason for the lower cost hunts.Maybe the guy is new trying to break in the business.i dont know to many guys that will pay a new guy the same money as some guy who has years in the business.Maybe the guy offering the cheaper hunt does not spend thousand on shows and travel.Decided he will discount hunts instead for his advertising.One guy spends thousands on shows one discounts hunt thousands both end up out the same amount in the end.Why is one wrong and one right.But I am sure it is me just making more out of all the cheap hunt talk then some people just worrying about there wallet.Or how some guys just piled on trying to run someone over like a runaway train.Money never makes people do things to get ahead or hurt someone if they can.

 

[enysse]

I sure wish people would not talk about cheap hunts like it was a swear word. There is nothing wrong with affordable hunts. Yes, sometimes they occur on smaller size properties than others but if the price is right, who cares...it still generates money. If you hunt on foot, it is still miles of walking. Thick brush hides a lot of game.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

As for the comment about taking the ph coarse to learn not to sell cheaps hunts. I never heard a dumber reason for taking a coarse in my lifetime.If that is what they teach I just lost some respect for what they must teach.I am sure must went to learn how to be a ph not a banker.I am glad to see some either slept through that part or did not buy that bs they tried to teach.I would never get back to hunt south africa with what some charge.

As for cheap hunt maybe there is a reason for the lower cost hunts.Maybe the guy is new trying to break in the business.i dont know to many guys that will pay a new guy the same money as some guy who has years in the business.Maybe the guy offering the cheaper hunt does not spend thousand on shows and travel.Decided he will discount hunts instead for his advertising.One guy spends thousands on shows one discounts hunt thousands both end up out the same amount in the end.Why is one wrong and one right.But I am sure it is me just making more out of all the cheap hunt talk then some people just worrying about there wallet.Or how some guys just piled on trying to run someone over like a runaway train.Money never makes people do things to get ahead or hurt someone if they can.

Bill Assume this in reply to my comment, so allow me the opportunity to educate and clarify.
I assumed incorrectly though sorry about that my statement below in general then....
How can one be an outfitter if you have not gone through the ranks, and the learning curve of what is this industry. ? ! You can't that simple,

how can you sell something if you do not know how it is supposed to operate? ! You can't that simple.
How do you manage your staff in this industry, this include .ph's, trackers, skinners, cheff if you did not go through the learning curve as a .ph?,! You cant that simple

How do you avoid what is now being referred to as youthful enthusiasm in other words market safari's without a outfitters license. I'll tell you you........... do your .ph course go through the ranks, learn (this includes the laws which state that you need to be a in possession of an op)

Hunting is a small part of it..... there is much more to it.

I will say it again the only guy that starts at the top, is a grave digger and he works his way down.

$have sweet blue nothing to do with it, right is right wrong is wrong.

I Have wished Loot the best of luck and sure he will be a success down playing the issue is not the way forward.

Take the knock lift your chin and carry on..... there is no other way, believing there is is ignorant.
Knowing what i know he will be okay.
My best always

 

[vgruan]

Good day gentleman,

I would also like to clarify a few things that has been said by myself.....

Firstly I would like to apologize to anyone I insulted or touched with my post on "cheaper" hunts. It was taken in the wrong context. As i said it in a later post I was not aimed at anybody at all. I was making a general statement to inform people of what has happened in the past and what to look out for. Most of us that has been on this site have more or less the same price range we work on as I went and did some research.

Posting it on this thread was a mistake and I apologize for doing so.

We all try our best to provide the best possible quality safaris for the best price possible while still making a living out of this industry we love so dearly. It is our way of life it is no a job like a lot think it is. At the end of the day there is a lot of factors that determine the $$$ of a hunt both on the outfitter's side and the client's side. It is the client's choice on what he expects to be offered on a certain $$$$ range. (Not that the most expensive is always best!) I also give good discounts to prospective and returning clients where possible as I believe that the business we are in you will not make it if you are not willing to negotiate some.

I would also like Phil said want to put a point out there to future clients wanting to book safaris not to use the $$$$ as primary decision to hunt with an outfitter. There is very expensive outfitters out there that can also conduct a bad safari and not provide what they promised. What I meant was just for clients to really do they research and when things looks that great to do even more research.

I really did not intend to step on anybodies toes or to make anyone look bad. That last thing I wanted to do is to bad mouth anyone to say the least. It is not my nature nor they way I was brought up. (My mom will kick my @ss if I ever do so in anyway!) I do have respect for my fellow outfitters and some of my best friends are outfitters on this site!

We all started at the bottom as a PH not knowing where we are going to end up but worked hard to get where we are at today. It is very hard and a daunting task to find clients and get your business going at first, this forum has helped a lot of us getting our names out there and helping us build our businesses.

I truly wish Loodt the best of luck with getting this sorted out as he is like myself a young man in a very difficult and competitive industry. We need to do our best to keep our industry name good and also keep our clients happy in all factors of planning and doing a safari so they can spread a good word on our industry around the world and return to hunt Africa many more times.

Once again I apologize to anyone that feels I stepped on their toes.

Best regards,

Jacques

 

[tarbe]

I told myself not to post in this thread anymore, but I am going to anyway...

First, thanks for the above post Jacques. If I were not messing up the thread with another post, that would be a great one to lock her down on!

Secondly, Jaco, you posted above

"how can you sell something if you do not know how it is supposed to operate? ! You can't that simple.
How do you manage your staff in this industry, this include .ph's, trackers, skinners, cheff if you did not go through the learning curve as a .ph?,! You cant that simple"

I am assuming this post was your defense of the necessity of attending PH school and getting ones PH prior to trying to run an outfitting business.

No doubt you learn much about the business in the PH school, but do you really think that is the only way to learn the business?

That would be a bit like me saying, as a chemist the only way to learn chemistry is in college. The only way to earn a degree in chemistry is in school, but there are other ways to learn chemistry. Much the same I suppose for outfitting and PH. You need the piece of paper to run a legal business...we all agree on that. But there is more than one way to learn the ropes, no?

I know...I am being argumentative this morning. Must be I had a great weekend and I am sore about having to go back to work!

Peace,


Tim

 

[SHOEDOG]

Tim,
I probably missed it somewhere in this thread but are you booked with Tootabi?
Peace to you,
Shoedog

 

[tarbe]

Tim,
I probably missed it somewhere in this thread but are you booked with Tootabi?
Peace to you,
Shoedog

Yes, I mentioned in my first post that I had decided to hunt with THS because of Loodt's enthusiasm for client satisfaction and not due to price alone (this was in response to the word "cheap" being thrown around).


Tim

 

[Patrick R]

Yes, I mentioned in my first post that I had decided to hunt with THS because of Loodt's enthusiasm for client satisfaction and not due to price alone (this was in response to the word "cheap" being thrown around).


Tim

Tim,

Please just make sure on the export of your trophies!! The problem is here when your trophies gets exported, without the legal paperwork which a PH and Outfitter has to sign before any trophy gets done by a taxidermy AND transported by an exporter to the hunters country of origin...just think about it...

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Tarbe, I was not defending any post, no outfitter will do a proper job of running a safari company without years of experience as a ph.

Period.

Experience is one of those things you just can not buy, it takes hard work, dedication and many pit falls along the way...

For everything else there's MASTERCARD.

My best always.... Iry Man!

 

[reymond chikosi]

I have a question. If a man has money has th resources to start a huntng enterprise, that is, resources to employ an experienced PH, camp manager and staff, what else can STOP him? I hope th law in S.A dont compel entrepreneurs to have a qualification in their busines interests, othrwise there would b very few drainage works companies. Th hunting industry if loaded wth politics. Tinoda kuvharirana mikana pane kune kuvhurirana

 

[Diamondhitch]

One more funny thing to me is how he has been found guilty by some.

I agree, Im sure this is not funny to Loodt.

Im glad this was brought to light, it makes me feel just a bit better about finding wrongdoers. Loodt at the very least made a mistake, as he admitted, but Im not willing to condemn him on hearsay. Time, and those with ALL the FACTS will decide.

Good luck to you Loodt if you simply made a well intentioned mistake, I sincerely hope this mess does not hurt you in the long term. If you are actually a snake in the grass though, Im sure the legal Mongoose will sort you out.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I have a question. If a man has money has th resources to start a huntng enterprise, that is, resources to employ an experienced PH, camp manager and staff, what else can STOP him?

The government. They have a permitting process that they expect to be followed.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

The government. They have a permitting process that they expect to be followed.

And LAWS.

My best always.

 

[KAROO WILD Safaris]

I have a question. If a man has money has th resources to start a huntng enterprise, that is, resources to employ an experienced PH, camp manager and staff, what else can STOP him? I hope th law in S.A dont compel entrepreneurs to have a qualification in their busines interests, othrwise there would b very few drainage works companies. Th hunting industry if loaded wth politics. Tinoda kuvharirana mikana pane kune kuvhurirana

Comparing hunting to a "drainage works" company is a gross over-simplication. Hunting, guiding and outfitting, concerns the natural resources of a country and is potentially a dangerous sport making it different to the average entrepreneurial endeavour. Yes, there is a lot of politics in hunting, permits, laws etc that has even the most prudent outfitter shaking his head in frustration but consider the alternative. No laws, everyone doing as they please, how they please. South Africa has one of the largest and most diverse concentration of game species in the world and the system works. It's a system of government and private interest debating and keeping each other honest.

I genuinely feel that Loodt make an honest mistake. He's a young man and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and put it down to over-eagerness. From his posts and comments from other members he seems like a helpful bloke. But what he did was wrong and pretending that he it wasn't isn't doing our industry any good whatsoever. He'll learn from it and bounce back stronger than ever.