Resignation PHASA President

[siml]

@ActionBob also made a good point, was sold a hunt that wasn't what he was told.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Is this really how the majority of the high fence lion hunting is done there?

Is the picture from a petting operation?

This lion was being punished for misbehaving (following photo) with a petting tourist.

Please note the line of vehicles waiting to see the lions. Not one firearm is sight!

Meanwhile, back in Tanzania. A merry band of wild lions was exterminated for going after cattle? Their paws? Note, it is a cousin of Cecil with the collar.

If you really want to get close you can ride in the mobile cage

Note the baiting of this Lion with tidbits on the top of the cage.

 

[wesheltonj]

So close.

 

[Red Leg]

No it's not and that's why I'm so damn sick of many beating this to death. I have done it, 99% of those who criticize have not. They make assumptions on hear say and a very small percentage of bad apples that have been in the media. Many of them do much more to spread half truths and whole lies through arrogance and ignorance. I hunted my lion in as fair chase conditions in the kalahari as any other lion hunt in Africa. Further I didn't shoot it from them comfort of a baited blind. I walked miles tracking on foot and took him honorably on his terms. And yes there were lionesses and yes they could breed and yes we saw plenty of lion kills on a 39,000 hectare hunting reserve. There is very minimal human intervention. I am under no illusions that the lions there were not at some point brought in. The fact is that there are numerous laws regarding lion hunts in SA and miles of paperwork to ensure it's done ethically and legally. I know I've done it. I'm sure there are outfitters that have broken the laws in regards to lion hunts and I will be the first to crucify them if they have violated the law.
Further, @Reg Leg, I happen to have Texas Dall as well as many other sheep and exotic species under 700 acres of high fence. Before the high fence I had the exotic sheep and goats under a low fence which we sold these "shoots" as you call them. There are several long time members here on this very website that hunted with me who you are insulting in addition to myself. You have never been to my place and have no knowledge of how my hunting operations are conducted. So by saying that it's a "shoot" and talking down to me and those members here, of which there are many, who hunt with me is very insulting. I don't give a damn if it's not your cup of tea. I don't care what you deem as a hunt or not and I wholly support your right to your opinion and your right to hunt in any manner you deem fit. I don't appreciate being talked down to and insulted repeatedly by you or anyone else, especially when you have never stepped foot on my ranch or met me and spent any time around me. So if you wonder why I've called you self entitled and hollier than thou ( please note I wanted to make sure thou wasn't autocorrected to tho this time though I make no garauntee on the rest as I'm working this weekend and only have a limited time to post) then there you have it.

Sigh. Giz, I have never referred to your operation. I have never been there. If I had intended to insult you, I assure you, you would have known it. Because you feel like I did, I sincerely apologize for any inference you may have drawn. I have no idea how you harvest sheep, or anything else. I am referring to three high-fence operations that I have visited in the Austin/ San Antonio area, and a number of others in this area which have hosted friends. I do not offer any apology for my feelings about the operations in the following paragraphs.

I "shot" a deer on one and was an invited guest on the others to visit their operations while on our local board. Each had multiple, high fence pastures of around 500 acres. Various species of animals were released in each including aoudad and Texas Dall. The deer shooting consisted of choosing a deer which met the category you were paying to shoot - among the dozen or so feeding at the feeder and on the scattered corn in the area. The fallow deer, aoudad, and Texas Dall were so habituated to humans that we had to slow the Polaris/ mule/ atv down to drive through groups of them. That was true on each ranch. Rather different than the aoudad experience I had in West Texas among free- range animals. At each operation, the owner could accommodate stand shooting, a contrived "stalk" of these wary beasts, or a drive up to execute them. Each of those owners had his absolute legal right to exploit those animals however he saw fit. Fortunately, I don't have to participate in it again, and won't waste a lot of energy defending it. We are all fortunate none of our enemies have generated any ground swell of opinion against the industry. Killing game animals in that environment is legal, but I would be hard pressed to deem it fair chase.

I will gladly assume your ranch resembles nothing like what I described. I certainly did not intend to paint all Texas high fence operations with such a broad brush. I know Jeff Rann somewhat through our local wildlife conservation organization, and he is doing about as well with the model on the Triple 7 as anyone I have seen. About 2/3's of his species are truly self-sustaining, and all of his whitetail are of Hill Country genetic stock rather than the frankenbucks one sees on many ranches. It is rather amusing to bump a roan while stalking a red deer, but at least they don't walk up to be fed. I certainly would presume your operation reflects that model rather than the others I mentioned.

I don't think high-fenced hunting should be banned or necessarily shunned. Indeed, I applaud the practice where animals are provided adequate real estate to self-sustain themselves and instinctively behave as they would in the wild. I believe hunts in such an environment constitute fair chase. On the other hand, when the target is one of nearly 100 whitetail bucks released into a 500 acre enclosure, the resulting kill, in my opinion, is neither fair chase nor what we traditionally consider hunting.

None of that is meant as an attack on you personally. I do not have a "holier than thou" perception of you. You do not figure into any of my thoughts or my perceptions at all. But I have offered my fairly well informed observations of some of the high fence operations here and in Sothern Africa. You mentioned twice your 24/7/365 work ethic. I applaud it. I hope you don't think you are unique on this forum or in this conversation. Any "privledge" I now exercise is the result of long decades doing just that.

I bring up "put and take" operations because I believe they could be problematic for us and our sport at some point - already are with lion -because many do not reflect what I think is the very virtuous and explainable goal of stewardship through hunting.

Would love to talk it over with you sometime.

 

[gizmo]

Sigh. Giz, I have never referred to your operation. I have never been there. If I had intended to insult you, I assure you, you would have known it. Because you feel like I did, I sincerely apologize for any inference you may have drawn. I have no idea how you harvest sheep, or anything else. I am referring to three high-fence operations that I have visited in the Austin/ San Antonio area, and a number of others in this area which have hosted friends. I do not offer any apology for my feelings about the operations in the following paragraphs.

I "shot" a deer on one and was an invited guest on the others to visit their operations while on our local board. Each had multiple, high fence pastures of around 500 acres. Various species of animals were released in each including aoudad and Texas Dall. The deer shooting consisted of choosing a deer which met the category you were paying to shoot - among the dozen or so feeding at the feeder and on the scattered corn in the area. The fallow deer, aoudad, and Texas Dall were so habituated to humans that we had to slow the Polaris/ mule/ atv down to drive through groups of them. That was true on each ranch. Rather different than the aoudad experience I had in West Texas among free- range animals. At each operation, the owner could accommodate stand shooting, a contrived "stalk" of these wary beasts, or a drive up to execute them. Each of those owners had his absolute legal right to exploit those animals however he saw fit. Fortunately, I don't have to participate in it again, and won't waste a lot of energy defending it. We are all fortunate none of our enemies have generated any ground swell of opinion against the industry. Killing game animals in that environment is legal, but I would be hard pressed to deem it fair chase.

I will gladly assume your ranch resembles nothing like what I described. I certainly did not intend to paint all Texas high fence operations with such a broad brush. I know Jeff Rann somewhat through our local wildlife conservation organization, and he is doing about as well with the model on the Triple 7 as anyone I have seen. About 2/3's of his species are truly self-sustaining, and all of his whitetail are of Hill Country genetic stock rather than the frankenbucks one sees on many ranches. It is rather amusing to bump a roan while stalking a red deer, but at least they don't walk up to be fed. I certainly would presume your operation reflects that model rather than the others I mentioned.

I don't think high-fenced hunting should be banned or necessarily shunned. Indeed, I applaud the practice where animals are provided adequate real estate to self-sustain themselves and instinctively behave as they would in the wild. I believe hunts in such an environment constitute fair chase. On the other hand, when the target is one of nearly 100 whitetail bucks released into a 500 acre enclosure, the resulting kill, in my opinion, is neither fair chase nor what we traditionally consider hunting.

None of that is meant as an attack on you personally. I do not have a "holier than thou" perception of you. You do not figure into any of my thoughts or my perceptions at all. But I have offered my fairly well informed observations of some of the high fence operations here and in Sothern Africa. You mentioned twice your 24/7/365 work ethic. I applaud it. I hope you don't think you are unique on this forum or in this conversation. Any "privledge" I now exercise is the result of long decades doing just that.

I bring up "put and take" operations because I believe they could be problematic for us and our sport at some point - already are with lion -because many do not reflect what I think is the very virtuous and explainable goal of stewardship through hunting.

Would love to talk it over with you sometime.

I sincerely appreciate your explanation and apology. It appears I have taken what you meant out of context and for that I apologize. I absolutely agree that there are many outfitters out there that don't do it right. Additionally it gives us that do a bad name.
Here is the problem as I see it both here and in SA or anywhere else for that matter. So you have operations who do it right and wrong. That goes for anything in life though. So what's the answer outlaw it all together? Outlaw only certain practices, who makes that decision? I certainly have a problem with a few making decisions for the many especially anywhere the gov't is involved as there isn't a politician out there who isn't swayed one way or another by certain special interest. So that leaves the thought, well there needs to be size restrictions etc... ok, I can almost garauntee as the little guy I'd be out of business due to size. That also doesn't take into account that there are plenty of huge operations out there that are the most guilty of questionable all the way to outright illegal activities. Not to mention it becomes a "good old boys club" and if your a cool kid then your ok but if your not than they don't give a damn about you. So there again who makes that decision? I'm not a fan of the places I've seen similar to what you described but really while I certainly don't agree with them I don't scorn them either. I choose to not run my place that way and not to hunt like that. I don't understand why one would pay to do that either but at the end of the day it's their money. The reason I feel this way is simple. I truely believe that if a huge issue is made out of it without a doubt all of us who run things the right way will suffer and us little guys like myself will be out of a job. Understand I'm only speaking of legal activities. I will be the first to grab torches and pitchforks to lynch an operator who is conducting illegal activities.
@Traditional Mozambique Safaris i completely understand what you are saying. The biggest thing is I still believe that the overall purpose is the same as it was when it started. The goal, that of increasing overall lion numbers and the ability to reintroduce them into wild areas they have been poached out or pushed out, is the same. I also feel that the majority of operations were doing it legally and ethically. It is another example of the majority who are conducting business properly being punished for the minority who isn't. It is also an instance where if the rules/laws are broken then they need to be enforced by the governing bodies. At the end of the day more lions can't be a bad thing. Look and what has happened to the rhino as a result of over regulation and lack of funding to prevent poaching. Unfortunately lions are in the same boat. Within most of our lifetimes we will see the end of wild lions if this trend continues. With no private populations to help bring them back they will be gone and gone forever. Zoos will be the only place the king of the jungle will be seen. And a zoo is quite possibly the most cruel and inhumane hell an animal can have to endure. A big predator like that living in a 40x40 cell with meat balls as entertainment is no way to live for natures greatest predator. Every cause looses focus eventually, it's up to those who understand and are educated on the issue to bring it back into focus. I agree that in many places it became about the money not the lions but it is an issue of bringing it back to focus. Properly done CBL is a good thing and I know you and I have agreed on that point, key word being properly done. We as hunter conservationalists and outfitters need to be the ones to get it back on track and focused. If we don't moronic agencies like USFW take the initiative and further leftist beliefs causing major issues. There is an elephant in the room that no one is noticing. The lion ban was a result of free range lion hunting of one Cecil the Lion. He was not a CBL yet the antis used the momentum given to them by lies and exaggeration to stir the pot enough for PHASA to come out and give them all the ammunition they needed to shut it all down, both free range and CBL. In essence we shot ourselves in the foot making an issue out of a non issue all in the context of getting ahead of a problem which had not previously existed until PHASA made it an issue. It never mattered that there was absolutely nothing illegal about the Cecil hunt which destroyed the life of a hunter who had done nothing wrong. That entire event shaped up to be exactly what I thought it would be from the beginning, anti propaganda and grossly falsified and exaggerated BS.
So now we see the predicament we're in. Lion imports are banned completely which is certainly no favor to lions CBL or wild. And guess what, giraffe is next. I don't give it two years and giraffe imports will banned. Once they're done with that they will move on to the next and so on and so on. We are loosing this fight in a grand way and we are our own worse enemies be cause we spend more time in utter knock down drag out fights over what we feel is ethical or not. We are the reason we are loosing and we are the reason we will loose in the end because no one will unite to stop this shit. We outnumber them yet they are the PR masters and kick our asses every time. Why, because they unite even if they don't agree on the small details. We refuse to do that.

 

[BRICKBURN]

So close.

 

[BRICKBURN]

.................. There is an elephant in the room that no one is noticing. The lion ban was a result of free range lion hunting of one Cecil the Lion. .........

I think this little flick touring the world, having it's own little catchy name "blood", fb page, and indeed a well funded machine had one hell of a lot more to do with the backlash than Palmer ever did. He just happened to be a convenient American patsy for Anti's.

 

[billc]

I think this little flick touring the world, having it's own little catchy name "blood", fb page, and indeed a well funded machine had one hell of a lot more to do with the backlash than Palmer ever did. He just happened to be a convenient American patsy for Anti's.

I don't believe that for a minute. That blood lion bs did not last a week with people paying attention to it other then those bunny huggers it was made for. Your heard about cecil for months on major tv networks and more places.Me and my son laughed out loud more then once when out with pepole talking about cecil when they had no clue about Africa at all. Just hearing them talk showed me how people listen to what they hear and don't care to look in to the facts. They most be feed facts just like they were feed the lies over the whole cecil bs story.

I wish people would stop acting like we are fighting the world when we are fighting a few nut jobs who just spread lies better then we spread the truth. One anti makes as much noise as a thousand of us hunter it seems. We give them power and worry about if we hurt there feelings because we don't want the public to think less of us as a group. Well it is time to take the kid gloves off and stick together and fight for all hunters period.

 

[Pheroze]

I wish people would stop acting like we are fighting the world when we are fighting a few nut jobs who just spread lies better then we spread the truth.

Very good point! I think you are probably correct. Although, in urban areas you probably have more who sympathize with the nut jobs as they don't know the truth.

 

[gizmo]

I think this little flick touring the world, having it's own little catchy name "blood", fb page, and indeed a well funded machine had one hell of a lot more to do with the backlash than Palmer ever did. He just happened to be a convenient American patsy for Anti's.

I have to side with BillC on this. Few people, at least here in the states anyway, ever even heard of that nonsense. The antis championed it as their war cry but very few people ever gave enough of a shit to actually watch it.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I don't believe that for a minute. That blood lion bs did not last a week with people paying attention to it other then those bunny huggers it was made for. Your heard about cecil for months on major tv networks and more places.......

@billc please contact your interpreter ASAP.

Nothing like the facts to cloud an argument.


The news cycle for CECIL the LION in the USA major news networks was July 28 to October of 2015 at the lastest. Most of it was over in August.
ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc. Have a look at their story dates.

The Australian August 2015 news cycle.
Germany August 2015 news cycle.
Canada July 28 to October 2015
UK, same timeline.

Cecil demise occurred in July 1, 2015.



Blood Lions - a film exposing the brutal exploitation of the king of ...
https://africageographic.com/blog/blood-lions-canned-hunting-captive-bred-lions/
Jul 17, 2015


@billc In 16 days they produced and distributed the documentary?


Then it kept on going.
London Premiere of Blood Lions
Posted Nov 6, 2015

“Blood Lions” premieres Wednesday October 7th on MSNBC

The Born Free Foundation was proud to host the UK premier of hard hitting documentary, Blood Lions – Bred for the Bullet, at the Royal Geographical Society in London on Friday 27th November.

Blood Lions documentary goes International
By Blood Lions Team
Blood Lions - 31 August 2015The 1st of September will see the first screening of the controversial documentary, Blood Lions, overseas. The film will be screened in Perth, Sydney and Melbourne – Australia.

To this day there are still screenings going on AROUND THE WORLD and of course online availability.

The film is available in South Africa on Takealot.com, in the USA on Amazon and through PBS, and in the UK on iTunes. It is now also available on VOD worldwide.

• VOD Worldwide
• South Africa:
• United States:
• Shop PBS:

Public Screenings
Reel Earth Film Festival
Date: 27 May 2017
Time: 6:00 PM
Venue: Globe Theatre, Cnr Main and Pitt Sts, Palmerston North
https://www.reelearth.org.nz/node/12

The University of Melbourne
Date: 11 May 2017
Time: 18:30–20:30 UTC+10
Venue: Laby Theatre (Room L108), Physics South Building
https://goo.gl/m53fba


The Tsunami was already rolling long before Cecil:

Note a few earlier issues in the USA:
Hunting Star Stirs Outrage After Posting Photo of Dead Lion - ABC News Nov 16, 2013

UK
'Canned hunting': the lions bred for slaughter Jun 3, 2013

MELBOURNE, February 13, 2015 – Today Australia banned the import of lion body parts to prevent hunters from bringing home lion hunting trophies.

The International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation (CIC) based in Hungary.
http://www.cic-wildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/009_captive_bred_lions.pdf

 

[Hank2211]

At the risk (100%) of repeating myself, this again points out why we need to be as well financed, as professional and as ubiquitous at the anti's. Not because I think we can convince the antis, but so that we can counter the anti's propaganda. Wouldn't it be great if every time someone in the silent majority heard something anti-hunting, they also heard something pro hunting? And even better, if they heard pro hunting messages more often than anti hunting messages.

Unfortunately, I don't think we've done anything to counter the messages Brickburn has described.

Playing catch up is no way to win an argument. Not playing at all is a sure way to lose an argument.

 

[BRICKBURN]

This guy is my hero on the reality of hunting bans on Lions.

 

[gizmo]

The movie still didn't get the attention here in the states as much as Cecil and the Facebook crap kept on forever it seems. The movie was announced here and few gave a rats ass. Now Europe and Australia very well may be a different story.
One thing of note, the average joe when they hear that I have hunted and killed a lion generally asks a gillion questions and is very supportive of it. I've only ever had two people make a negative issue out of it in person (not including anti dipshits who post on Facebook when they see the pic) one was a checker at Walmart right after I got back and a friend was asking me to tell the story while we were at the grocery store. She was told to mind her own business and that I was not talking to her. She made a stink and the manager removed her from the checkout station. I don't know and don't care after that. The second was during this last election when I was waiting in line to vote. I had my AH hat on and a little old lady next to me asked if I had been to Africa hunting. I started talking to her and some millennial Hildabeest supporter started running her yapper. I never had to say a word as about ten people who were in line listening to my story told her to shut up and that she was an idiot. I found that quite humorous.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Erik, the fact that it got play at all and is still having public screenings two years later is the bloody scary part. We dismiss it at our peril. It is around the world.

I get reactions all over the map to my hunting at home and in Africa. Most relax when I educate the people that the meat is used and I don't just chop heads off and leave the rest to rot.
(Everyone, thus far has been amenable to my hunting to eat.)

Noted earlier, that Namibian Farmer outstripped old Palmer in one day and the Masai kill more Lions than Palmer would imagine.
Those stories just don't make good sensational copy and they are in Africa.
Rich Americans killing poor little woodland creatures that are about to become extinct. Don't you know that! They are going extinct, TODAY!

 

[gizmo]

Wayne you make a good point about it still getting airtime globally. Really an independent film with a bit of financial backing showing a positive hunting story would go a long way. Especially if it could get some half ass famous people in it. Kind of like some of the Christian movies in the last few years. They have put a positive message out and quite a bit of air time.

 

[BRICKBURN]

An organization that could help.

 

[gizmo]

I've often thought a well done screenplay of death in the long grass would be the bees knees.

 

[BRICKBURN]

..........Really an independent film with a bit of financial backing showing a positive hunting story would go a long way. Especially if it could get some half ass famous people in it. .....

For example (sans famous guy)

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/trophy-the-film-let-your-voice-be-heard.37142/#post-348232

 

[BWH]

Well.... I disappeared for a day or two, and this thread happens!