Preparing to order or buy a Double Rifle: help me choose the caliber

[towserthemouser]

I never shot anything bigger than my 416 Rigby until I purchased a Heym 500 NE about a year and a half ago. Now I'm 60 years old and find after putting around 200 rounds through the 500 that its very handy, fast, balanced and with a red dot I hope will get me on my first buffalo in about 5 weeks. I'm not recoil shy, but I am getting old! I don't find the 500 difficult to shoot and think the reward of said caliber complements what I'll be doing in Mozambique perfectly... Time will tell.

Thank you, this is exactly the type of information that is really helpful; someone my age who can comment on recoil of a particular caliber. I know that perceived recoil can be subjective, and that different shooters have very different tolerance levels. But it's nice to know that it's not unreasonable for someone at a similar life stage.

 

[Rubberhead]

The 500 is only half-an-inch...go for it...

 

[Tanks]

Thank you, this is exactly the type of information that is really helpful; someone my age who can comment on recoil of a particular caliber. I know that perceived recoil can be subjective, and that different shooters have very different tolerance levels. But it's nice to know that it's not unreasonable for someone at a similar life stage.

For the record, I am 67.

Was also 67 when this video was taken with my .500 NE

 

[1dirthawker]

@towserthemouser,
first, i own a 450/400 3"

second: If i HAD to trade it for one one of the other calibers you listed it would be for the 450 nitro.
the 458 caliber availability of bullets would be one reason and it was the original express caliber and it will do anything the 470 or 500 will do with good shot placement.

i think the shoot ability of the 450-400 (in recoil terms) has much to recommend it.

regardless, a new double rifle, good for you!! i am mildly jealous. i think your choice of heym is a good one, good luck with your new rifle.

 

[towserthemouser]

The 500 is only half-an-inch...go for it...

I have been advised by reliable sources that sometimes half an inch can make all the difference in the world.

 

[towserthemouser]

For the record, I am 67.

Was also 67 when this video was taken with my .500 NE

Thanks, Tanks. You seem like a good egg. As the saying goes, "What one man can do, another can do."

 

[KJE81]

I would probably go for the .470 Nitro Express, a classical calibre with easily available ammunition both home and abroad. Just like the .375 Holland & Holland which would be my choice for a bolt action rifle, for the same reasons.

 

[Rare Breed]

For the record, I am 67.

Was also 67 when this video was taken with my .500 NE

But @Tanks you are not the normal 67 years old. You have dedicated yourself to staying in shape year round plus you have your shooting technique down perfectly being able to “roll” with the recoil. I salute you!

 

[towserthemouser]

But @Tanks you are not the normal 67 years old. You have dedicated yourself to staying in shape year round plus you have your shooting technique down perfectly being able to “roll” with the recoil. I salute you!

@Tanks I would love to learn more about your training methods, both for fitness and shooting the heavy rifles, if you're willing to share

 

[One Day...]

I've been lurking and learning on this wonderful forum for a while now. So much knowledge and experience on here, and I appreciate the generosity and passion of those who share it!

I've been on 3 safaris but it's been over 15 years; life has intervened (Job change, Category 5 Hurricane, global pandemic, paying for two academic degrees and two weddings, etc.). When I turned 60 I sat down and had a think and decided that I'm by no means done having adventures, and set some bucket list goals...... I'm hoping to hunt and adventure at least into my mid 70's. Legs and lungs and eyes are all good for now, and I'm putting in the work to try to keep it that way.

I'm drawn to the beautiful doubles and am researching and preparing to order one. I'm not opposed to finding a nice used one, but there is something fun about having it made just for you, and the anticipation of waiting for the delivery.

Leaning pretty hard right now towards the Heym 89B, although we have an upcoming trip to London, and I "accidentally" chose a hotel in the neighborhood of many of the famous gun makers....... So I'll be making the rounds (any suggestions about what/who to see are most welcome; I do know I want to have a look at the Rigby Shikari). I'm also planning to make a trip out to Texas and see and shoot the Heym rifles. If I had the budget I would just head straight to Westley Richards and sign the paperwork, but alas I think I will enjoy those vicariously, and spend my nickels on hunting trips.

I'm trying to choose the right caliber and am seeking advice. This is a big purchase, and if you order one you have to wait for it, and daylight is burning and I want to get it right. I'm 61. I'm built like a fullback. I do have a history of myopia since childhood and have undergone Lasik surgery. My vision is good but I have been told that I have a greater risk of retinal detachment than the general population. So that is maybe a consideration when it comes to heavy recoil. I have a fair amount of experience shooting a 375 H&H and the recoil of that does not bother me at all, in fact I really enjoy shooting it. I have taken a buffalo and a leopard with the 375. I have no experience with heavier calibers or with double rifles (I have put plenty of high brass duck and goose loads through my trusty Super Fox). It is likely that buffalo will be the most common targeted species for me over the next 15 years or so (with luck), mostly just based on cost and availability factors and the joy of hunting them. However, I do aspire to hunt elephant at least once, and maybe more if finances permit. And I might like to try for lion, again if finances permit. So I want to choose a caliber that is suitable for all. Part of the decision also involves choosing one that I will enjoy practicing with, and develop muscle memory and confidence and proficiency with the rifle and the caliber.

450/400 NE: Many have spoken well of the 450/400 NE. It is said to be very shootable, and ideally suited for buffalo. I've heard it said that it's perfectly adequate for elephant, and will achieve enough penetration to do the job with correct placement, and that the correct placement is perhaps more likely if you shoot the caliber well. To be honest I'm not 1000% convinced it is authoritative on elephant. And I'm a "belt and suspenders, two is one, one is none" kind of guy. I was also told that the 450/400 NE should be the first double rifle you buy, and the last one you sell. And if I'm going to hunt 8 or 10 buffalo and maybe 1 or 2 elephants over the next 10-15 years and into my 70's, maybe it is the correct choice.

450 NE: The 450 NE intrigues me because it is perhaps a bit more authoritative and maybe more suitable for elephant, and at least on paper may have a penetration advantage over the 470 NE based on better sectional density. And there is a huge choice of bullets in .458 and likely to remain so into the future. I've been told it may not have good resale value vs. the 470, although I hope to buy a rifle with some character and leave it behind for my grandson rather than sell it..... so resale value questions may not be as important. I'm buying a rifle to use it and enjoy it, not to sell it.

470 NE: The 470 NE certainly has plenty of cache, and most seem to agree that it's "enough gun" for all the animals we hunt. Resale value is perhaps the strongest of these choices from what I can tell. So if you're not happy with it for any reason, you can sell it. Ammo may be laying around in camp. I've heard it said that the recoil is a big step up, and one person even said, "The 470 NE is a young turk's caliber. You won't shoot it as well as a 450/400 NE, and you won't be shooting it when you're 70." No less an authority than Kevin Robertson has approved the caliber for elephant, but has also expressed some concerns about penetration, and stated that he "wishes it had a bit more sectional density." (The S.D. is .318) Kevin also expressed to me that the superior S.D. of .341 in a 450 NE with a 500 grain bullet may confer a meaningful penetration advantage for the slightly smaller caliber.......

500 NE: To be honest I haven't really considered the 500 NE as strongly for myself as a client hunter. I understand that it may be one of the very best choices for a PH to select as a stopping rifle, but I'm concerned we're just getting too far up the recoil scale for myself. On the other hand, I did have one person state that with his eyes closed he was not certain he could tell the difference in recoil from a 450 to a 470 to a 500 NE.

I'm ready to submit my application for membership to the Double Rifle Club, and would welcome any words of wisdom and encouragement from the members!

.470 NE for two reasons

KO factor

I subscribe to the commonly held thought that the role of a client and the role of a PH are not to be confused, hence the need for a stopping caliber may not be as relevant for a client. However, every year it seems we hear a handful of documented reports when the client had to shoot in self defense, and even occasionally when the client had to shoot to save the PH, or in the worst cases, after the PH was killed or badly mauled. It is rare indeed, but it does happen. This is factual.

John Taylor devoted considerable time and experimentations to the conceptualization of his knock-out factor, the Taylor KO. Beside a brain shot, in his experience, dropping in its track a charging elephant could also be accomplished with knocking it out inconscient for a brief moment with a blow strong enough and close enough to the brain.

This is how, to make a long story short, the popular wisdom of shooting a minimum of .45 caliber / 500 gr bullet / 2150 fps / 5.000 ft. lbs. became a dogma.

I am not aware of too many modern folks having more experience than "Pondoro" and I see little rationale for questioning his conclusions, shared, it must be noted, by a comfortable majority of the famed "White Hunters" of lore.

From this perspective, in Taylor's parlance, the baseline is around ~70 KO (.470 NE), and the .450/400 fails the test with ~50 KO. I am tempted to add: period.

Sure, the .500 NE provides a margin of error, and they were numerous, with John Hunter coming to mind, to prefer the ~90 KO of the .500 NE, but keep in mind Newton's third law of motion: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The bigger the blow you deliver, the bigger the blow you receive. Admittedly, this all goes more or less away in the heat of the action, but since you mentioned recoil...

This takes out both .450/.400 and .500 from your personal equation.

Ammo availability

Even this guy has .470 NE on the shelf

Good luck with .450

 

[matt85]

I voted 450/400 as it will be the easiest to shoot well for most people.

There isn't much of a difference in performance between most 450 NE cartridges and the 470 NE. Either would be a good option and I would choose based on the gun.

The 500 NE is a wonderful working cartridge and a fine choice. But in identical guns it will produce more recoil. This matters more to some people than others.

There is no bad choice here.

 

[One Day...]

As to .470 NE recoil...

Sure, towserthemouser, it kicks, but if 13-year-old Tyssen Bulter could handle it, so can you

The two golden rules are:

1) Do not listen to the sirens and let them convince you to buy a 9 lbs. double "stopper" rifle. There is a good reason why they built them at 11 to 12 lbs. when doubles were used more in the bush than in the gun room.

2) Do not shoot seated from the bench. There is also a good reason why they used standing benches (tripod or quadpod sticks will do) when doubles were used more for hunting than printing paper groups.

This is at 1:21:00+ in the excellent documentary In the Blood

 

[Tanks]

@Tanks I would love to learn more about your training methods, both for fitness and shooting the heavy rifles, if you're willing to share

Workout regimen outlined here:

Who prioritize fitness for your upcoming and future safaris?

Not quite as far along as Joe, but at 63 I’m retired on a farm that keeps me very active. I am also addicted to Peloton bike, tread and strength workouts. When preparing for a hunt I hump a five mile loop over the hill behind the house with rifle and pack.

www.africahunting.com

Demonstration of rolling with the recoil shown here, basically let recoil happen rather than fighting it.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

If you’re recoil shy, .450/400 Nitro Express

If you end up going after a lot of lion/leopard, .500/416 Nitro Express

If you want ease of ammunition/brass/bullet availability, .470 Nitro Express

If you end up going after a lot of elephant, .500 Nitro Express