Pre-64 Winchester 70 9.3x64 Brenneke - The mystery continues

[flatwater bill]

I could provide a letter of authentication for less than $500....say $250..........I would probably need to take it to Africa once or twice. Just to be sure.............FWB

 

[mark-hunter]

Please excuse my lack of knowledge but what happened after 1964??

Red Leg has explained it earlier.
In the meantime, WInchester company reinroduced CRF win m70 rifle, in 1992, still produced. (I will describe it as "as pre 64 type - post 92 produced")
But not in old factory in New Haven but in Portugal.

So 1964 for winchester m70 and CRF affcicionados is the year when "the earth stopped". That kind of year.
Another thing happened about that time.
In 1962 remington started production of push feed rifle remington 700.

SO, when Vietnam war started, US army ordered pre-64 (of course) winchester m70 as ther sniper rifles.
But very soon, winchester m70 will be replaced by remngton 700 as US sniper rifle. Before Vietnam war ended
It all happened in that time.
All hard hits for winchester.

Since then more and more gun makers started production of push feed rifles, and mauser type being steadily phased out.
It all started never ending debate of what is best or better, push feed rifle, or cotrol feed rifle.
You will find quite a few heated debates on this forum about that.

This all created a lure, and certain apeal of old pre 64 winchester m70, for rifle affcionados.

 

[mark-hunter]

Further to above, it took me some time to find, because I was almost certain the article was in some of my magazines, and I could not find it there flipping the pages. And I rember I have read it recently.Then, I went to online search, where I found info I looked for:

Although a bit of toppic to specific rifle 9.3x64, there is an ilustrative article, on the value of collectible m70s.
In this case, winchester m70 serial numbers 1, and 2. Estimated at 1.75 million USD.
Here is the link.

Winchester pre-64 Model 70 serial number 1 & serial number 2 - Sportsman's Legacy, Fine firearms, related books and sporting collectibles. Representing estates, collectors and nonprofit conservation organizations.

A most remarkable pairing – serial number 1 and serial number 2 Winchester pre-64 Model 70 rifles. Absent anything short of absolute certainty, each of these rifles stands among the world’s most important and valuable sporting arms. That they are paired presents an unequaled acquisition...

sportsmanslegacy.com

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

A few years ago I closely inspected a 100% original pre 64 M-70 .300 win mag with factory bull barrel THE ACTION HAD NEVER RECEIVED SERIAL numbers. I tried rule and the Winchester historian I got nowhere. The M-70 is still out there but now it has serial numbers for obvious reasons.

 

[BnC 04]

2006 the Winchester plant closed/stopped producing the last of the local M70s in March.
Was thereafter that BACO rifles where produced/assembled in SC, Portugal ect.

 

[Bonk]

"This all created a lure, and certain apeal of old pre 64 winchester m70, for rifle affcionados."

Absolutely correct.

Pre 64 M70s are good rifles and in their time they were great rifles but the legend is much larger than the reality. It's the same thing with muscle cars, Colt Pythons, Harley-Davidson and a few other bits of Americana. Americans have elevated all of them them to ridiculous status based more on nostalgia than actual quality. A typical gently used pre 64 M70 is not a $2500 rifle any more than a 69 Camaro is a $50,000 car. They may be valued at $2500/$50,000 but the quality/utility of either one doesn't justify the price tag. It's mostly hype and nostalgia.

Don't misunderstand, I'd like to own a pre 64 M70 (and a 69 Camaro) and when a decent example crosses my path I'll buy it if the price is reasonable. By reasonable I mean not stupid. However, I know I'm buying a relatively ordinary rifle at an inflated price because of nostalgia and market forces. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but it is what it is. YMMV.

BTW, I hope the OP's rifle really is a bonifide factory built 9.3x64. That would be pretty freaking cool.

 

[mark-hunter]

It's the same thing with muscle cars, Colt Pythons, Harley-Davidson and a few other bits of Americana

I've been watching some documentary about cars of that era.
The moderator said, they were building dreams, not cars.
Partly, it can be said for the guns of that era. (espeically when compared to modern plastic push feeds)

In a same manner, I still want python, but not for that price. Smith and wesson 686, will be acceptable usable substitute, for much less money.
I am with similar views as you are, @Bonk.

PS I would love to have m70, serial no 3, so I could sell them to accopmany theirs no. 1 and 2, and then I could buy some good rifle, and couple of life time safaris for my self, in a hemingway and Ruark style!

 

[rookhawk]

"This all created a lure, and certain apeal of old pre 64 winchester m70, for rifle affcionados."

Absolutely correct.

Pre 64 M70s are good rifles and in their time they were great rifles but the legend is much larger than the reality. It's the same thing with muscle cars, Colt Pythons, Harley-Davidson and a few other bits of Americana. Americans have elevated all of them them to ridiculous status based more on nostalgia than actual quality. A typical gently used pre 64 M70 is not a $2500 rifle any more than a 69 Camaro is a $50,000 car. They may be valued at $2500/$50,000 but the quality/utility of either one doesn't justify the price tag. It's mostly hype and nostalgia.

Don't misunderstand, I'd like to own a pre 64 M70 (and a 69 Camaro) and when a decent example crosses my path I'll buy it if the price is reasonable. By reasonable I mean not stupid. However, I know I'm buying a relatively ordinary rifle at an inflated price because of nostalgia and market forces. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but it is what it is. YMMV.

BTW, I hope the OP's rifle really is a bonifide factory built 9.3x64. That would be pretty freaking cool.

here’s where I disagree. For accuracy and quality, a pre-64 should be a $5000 gun based on replacement cost. There is nothing for sale at cabelas that is it’s equal. American first world made, walnut, adjustable trigger, rust blued, no castings.

its 5x the gun as say an investment cast ruger.

the rest of your analogy was better. Camaros were pieces of junk, I collected 65-66 mustangs which were even worse! But winchesters? They were the real deal and are worthevery penny based on utility value, not just collectible value.

 

[rookhawk]

I've been watching some documentary about cars of that era.
The moderator said, they were building dreams, not cars.
Partly, it can be said for the guns of that era. (espeically when compared to modern plastic push feeds)

In a same manner, I still want python, but not for that price. Smith and wesson 686, will be acceptable usable substitute, for much less money.
I am with similar views as you are, @Bonk.

PS I would love to have m70, serial no 3, so I could sell them to accopmany theirs no. 1 and 2, and then I could buy some good rifle, and couple of life time safaris for my self, in a hemingway and Ruark style!

they were also better. A win70 was an improved Mauser with all the fearures and they were well made. 25 years later what would be similar priced item? A browning a-bolt with a plastic trigger group. even without collectibility, rarity, or any other trappings pre64 70s are the finest used rifle for $1000 I can think of. (Ruined guns, not collectible, just shooters)

 

[rookhawk]

To beat a dead horse for humor’s sake, I found the coat that goes with collectible Winchester’s:

FOR MORE HUMOROUS FAKE ANTIQUES ROADSHOW APPRAISALS, HERE: https://cheezburger.com/6802949/40-hilarious-fake-antiques-roadshow-appraisals

 

[mark-hunter]

they were also better.

I agree!

 

[264]

I hope its an original.
As to value its what people are willing to pay for it.
Are Pre 64's worth the money? Ive got a couple and don't care much about their value. They just have a certain feel about them that is just right.
Interesting thread, not so common over here and they fetch top dollar, on the used gun market. Wish we had the choices you have in the states .
Ill keep my eyes open for more pre 64's
Thanks for posting deewayne

 

[Proneshooter]

Camaros were pieces of junk, I collected 65-66 mustangs which were even worse! But winchesters?

I have a 1970 Dodge Charger, and you are correct, the build quality is for shit. Those old cars were rusting on the showroom floor.

 

[C.W. Richter]

The metal and stock look excellent. The safety is def post-war. Your estimates of vintage appear on par (as the barrels of that vintage looked like your friend's.) It does look to be in excellent shape for that age-likely because ammo was hard to come by! I think you'll find it's worth considerably more to someone who wants it! Plain Jane common caliber pre-'64 M70s in excellent shape routinely go for $1,500-$2,500 and what you've got, assuming the real deal, is a treasure!

 

[C.W. Richter]

I have a 1970 Dodge Charger, and you are correct, the build quality is for shit. Those old cars were rusting on the showroom floor.

But worth $$$$! Esp. the biggest block(s) RT/SE or Daytona, etc. Grew up in a neighborhood of all diff. muscle cars. 'Had a Buick GSX and loved it...'Should've never sold. One guy had all the Mopars, others Chevy's, another Shelby Mustangs, etc. When 3 MPG at idle (and 500+/- Hp) was the norm. Impractical for me in the mtns/on the farm today.

 

[WAB]

But worth $$$$! Esp. the biggest block(s) RT/SE or Daytona, etc. Grew up in a neighborhood of all diff. muscle cars. 'Had a Buick GSX and loved it...'Should've never sold. One guy had all the Mopars, others Chevy's, another Shelby Mustangs, etc. When 3 MPG at idle (and 500+/- Hp) was the norm. Impractical for me in the mtns/on the farm today.

My first car was a ‘67 mustang GT convertible. It never saw the day it could run with my Ford Racing modified ‘06, but man was it a beautiful car.

 

[C.W. Richter]

trying not to be wordy-they had a BUNCH of fords 55 t-birds, cobras, shelbys and 65-68 fastbacks-all fantastic. they offered me a GT350 (68/dk blue/wht) in the 1980s for $5500 (i was in school and had no real job.) old man retired to AZ (smoked cigars) and had 2 car carriers bring the fleet along, leaving behind a big boat T-bird 429/C6/9" (which i bought and sold to a guy that put the drivetrain in a 50s pickup) and the 350. so many great deals slip through our hands...lol they had a few AMXs too-weird but fast and a 78 or 80 mustang pace car and one of those SHO mustangs w/ the turbo 4. Good times!

 

[C.W. Richter]

First car?!!!!!! Nice. Steve McQueen-approved. (me? datsun pickup then GSX.) lol maybe we should add Members of IHRA, NHRA? lol

 

[fourfive8]

I imagine Rule is feeling his age, retired and plain tired of countless questions like, "my granddad had a such and such M70- so what is it?". I can't really blame him.

Interesting thread for sure! So here goes 2 cents. That rifle looks refinished. The butt pad cover is odd so don't know what to add but may have been done when the gun was refinished. The checkered bolt stop ?? same thing. If it is a Winchester factory product it's value is determined of course by the market but IMO, looking at the pics and what Rule was able to uncover about these odd calibers and comparing the pics to the ones in Rules book, it appears to me to be a real factory product. Also IMO, its value is hurt if it was refinished, as it appears to have been, but nonetheless its value could be substantial within a narrow group of collectors in the market, if for no other reason than the rarity and caliber.

The serial shows a DOM of 1949... by most sources. Rule covers these non-standard chamberings/calibers in his book between pg 264-268 and some in the chapter on R&D test actions. But this one doesn't appear to be a test action, it looks like a regular hunting rifle in a non-standard chambering. He mentions lack of records for these and even tries to tie in the caliber die stamps to help authenticate the factory production record for these odd ball calibers. He includes several pictures of barrel stamps showing some of the odd calibers. I will say the OP's barrel stamp looks identical to the ones in Rule's book. He also states that some were hand stamped and some were done with one piece roll dies that were apparently recorded on inventory. Unfortunately, the 9.3x64 is not shown amongst the known non-standards made at the factory. But the list is sketchy because the factory simply didn't keep a complete record of these or the records have been lost to time. Much of the list of oddities relies in some part on after-the-fact specimen discovery. So who knows how many and in which flavors the non-standards were produced. There also doesn't seem to be a good record about how many some of the non-standard M70 barrels were from excess M54 stock after production ceased.

There's 2 cents and worth every penny.

Pic is example of an M70 non-standard caliber stamp that's in Rule's book.

 

[C.W. Richter]

In the writeup on provenance by whomever, ensure that they specifically state that it was found behind one of the faux doorways at the Winchester house! my $0.02.