Pre-64 Winchester 70 9.3x64 Brenneke - The mystery continues

[Red Leg]

@deewayne2003
I know exactly what we need . The answer that you seek , is in Winchester Western’s 1948 catalog . All we must do now , is find a gentleman ( or lady ) who possesses that catalog . At least the pages between 18 and 27 .

Pretty confident this caliber was never catalogued or we wouldn't be asking the question. The custom shop did do some unique firearms.

 

[Roller]

What's 3 POS CZ550s.....?

Drunken (G&T) ramblings over the quality of the final batch of worn out tooling, we're moving on, CZ550's (the exalted poor man's Rigby).

 

[Professor Mawla]

Pretty confident this caliber was never catalogued or we wouldn't be asking the question. The custom shop did do some unique firearms.

@Red Leg Sir
I do recall seeing a very old and battered Winchester Western advertisement from 1948 or 1949 , where the Model 70 was listed in 9.3x64 mm Brenekke and 10.75x68 mm Mauser . They were also listed in 7x64 mm and 8x64 mm calibre . I had actually seen it in Hill Country roughly a decade ago . The catalog belonged to a ( now deceased ) friend who used to collect arms catalogs . I have written an email to his widow a few minutes back , asking if she still has his collection . If she does , then I will ask her to send me some photographs of the pages .

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Drunken (G&T) ramblings over the quality of the final batch of worn out tooling, we're moving on, CZ550's (the exalted poor man's Rigby).

Seems like you’re the one who’s not moving on. Especially in making such an antagonistic statement in the first place

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg Sir
I do recall seeing a very old and battered Winchester Western advertisement from 1948 or 1949 , where the Model 70 was listed in 9.3x64 mm Brenekke and 10.75x68 mm Mauser . They were also listed in 7x64 mm and 8x64 mm calibre . I had actually seen it in Hill Country roughly a decade ago . The catalog belonged to a ( now deceased ) friend who used to collect arms catalogs . I have written an email to his widow a few minutes back , asking if she still has his collection . If she does , then I will ask her to send me some photographs of the pages .

That would be interesting and offer some meaningful insight.

 

[Roller]

Seems like you’re the one who’s not moving on. Especially in making such an antagonistic statement in the first place

I lived in Oklahoma for 5 years. I recall it being a mix of some of the most insightful, wise people I've ever met and some folks that found it a revelation to to wake up each morning and discover that possums weren't sold in a sack at Walmart.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

I lived in Oklahoma for 5 years. I recall it being a mix of some of the most insightful, wise people I've ever met and some folks that found it a revelation to to wake up each morning and discover that possums weren't sold in a sack at Walmart.

My how insulting of you

 

[Roller]

My how insulting of you

Please don't take offense. I love Oklahoma. It's the lovable "short-bus", poor cousin to Texas and I btw I supported cock-fighting when I lived there.

 

[Ray B]

And to think all of this is because a fellow was seeking information about a Model 70.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Please don't take offense. I love Oklahoma. It's the lovable "short-bus", poor cousin to Texas and I btw I supported cock-fighting when I lived there.

Is your last name Strzok? Lol.. Sir, I am going to take this opportunity to concede and freely admit my foolishness in picking up the gauntlet you threw down with your initial CZ post. In my naïveté I didn’t anticipate the conversation descending into petty insults. Have a good evening

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Also I am going to apologize to the OP for derailing this thread

 

[318AE]

I’m not knowledgeable enough about Model 70s to opine on the authenticity of the rifle. A period catalog would be interesting indeed. It’s a great looking rifle in an excellent cartridge. If it ever sells at auction etc, I suspect it will be the subject of great interest, and perhaps some debate. I hope someone takes it to the field and uses it!

 

[mark-hunter]

Gents, winchester catalogues, including 1948:

Shop All Products - Cornell Publications

Products Archive - Cornell Publications

www.cornellpubs.com

 

[deewayne2003]

OK, first of all thank you to all of those that offered sound advice and suggestions.

Secondly, I was born and raised in Texas and currently reside in the state capital Austin; although I currently do own a farm in Oklahoma; besides hunting, I use it as a place to escape the high and mighty opinions of people in Austin..... especially those that moved here from out of state and ruined it with their failed politics.

Although I did find the comment about residents wondering on the sale of possums in a sack quite entertaining and honestly a little truthful; I can relate as my mothers side of the family is from Oklahoma!

Now having said that.... Back to the Rifle!

I think redleg & Professor Mawla have a combined solution ..... I will instill the help of the winchester collectors as well as research printed material and see if we can find something that cross references.

I will report back on what information I find out.

 

[norfolk shooter]

With all due respect Norfolk, Winchester model 70 collecting (like Parkers, Colts, LC Smiths et al) has nothing to do with anything a British gunmaker or dealer could offer. Value is based upon rarity and percentage of ORIGINAL condition. Rook is absolutely correct. That rifle could be a cool $1200 shooter (as a shooter I think it beats $800 just because of the caliber.) If it was actually built by Winchester in that caliber, but has subsequently been "freshened" by lightly redoing the stock or even adding that pad three days after it left the factory, it is a 1.5 to 3K gun depending upon how badly a collector wanted an extremely rare but "ruined" rifle. If by some miracle it is in fact original, and it can be proven to be so, then the sky's the limit in a specialized auction. I should also offer, that Winchesters of all sorts of rarity have been concocted by everything from shade tree butchers to brilliant craftsman who make painting forgery look like a hobby. I have just such a beautiful resurrection in my gunroom in the form of a Model 94 take down rifle. It is just about a perfect, and shoots beautifully. It is a 94, it is a takedown, but it isn't original.

Rule should have known if any were made, but, indeed, he likely would not be able to actually authenticate it without having it in hand.

Did you try these guys? https://winchestercollector.org/ You will likely have to join to get a meaningful response, but they were extremely helpful with a two barrel Model 21 set that I own (discovered it was original in spite of wildly different barrel serial numbers).

You have just contradicted yourself there buddy. The rifle you write about in the highlighted section has a value to you does it not?? Even though it isn't original correct? Lets just try and be helpful on the forum rather than being twats.

As for British gun makers and dealers not having anything to offer I would disagree. I'm very fortunate to have a world leading arms auction house on my door step (ok about 30mins drive away) they get guns in from all over the world to sell for the vendors and are very well versed with gun valuation.

@deewayne2003 Im sure someone out there will be able to help you out. Most collectors will know whats what and if they dont they will know someone who does. I wish you the best of luck and I cant wait to read about the background on the rifle.

 

[Ray B]

To quote someone, whom exactly I'm not sure said "There are two kinds of people in this world". This categorization applies to several issues. At this moment the issue is the price of a firearm compared to the value of it. Some are noting the price of the firearm is exclusively a result of its parentage. If it had the correct parents- in this case some craftsmen/women at a plant in New Haven then its price is several thousand dollars; but even though its mother may be of the New Haven group, if its father was some outsider then it is an illegitimate offspring worth very little.

Then there are others that go past the firearms heritage and look at its character and abilities. they list several areas in which the firearm excels and supersedes several of the proper heritage firearms. If viewed from a utilitarian standpoint the firearms value greatly exceeds those with proper birth certificates.

Let us say the firearm has a proper birth certificate and a price oriented person owns it. What then? due to the price, the owner is reluctant to do anything that will devalue it and so the firearm becomes a safe queen, waiting for the day that its owner crosses the Jordan and it goes to an estate auction. the firearm was never used for its intended purpose and never realized the potential that was instilled in it by its parents. The owner gained nothing other than pride of ownership and the price was actualized only by the owners heirs when the firearm was passed on to another prideful person.

If the owner cannot establish a proper heritage of the firearm, then it is considered illegitimate and an embarrassment. As such the firearm is sloughed off with no ceremony. Even if the firearm may actually be a valid daughter of New Haven, without a Certificate of Authenticity, it is rejected by the carriage class.

But to the owner that looks past the situation of birth of the firearm and views the potential and character of the firearm, he sees a gem. Whether or not there is a piece of paper that authenticates its parents he sees what a great firearm this is and as such has great value even if it is not pursued by those establishing an overreaching price.

So as noted earlier on this page, beware of Oscar Wilde who noted about those people that know::
THE PRICE OF EVERYTHING AND THE VALUE OF NOTHING.

 

[DocShep]

Hi everyone, I'm an occasional lurker on this forum and upon seeing this topic I opened it and was surprised because I actually used to own the firearm in question. I purchased it several years ago from the Wheeling, WV Cabelas and owned it for a short time as I ended up finding an original Brenneke mauser chambered in 9.3x64 and either sold it back to Cabelas or traded it in on something else that they had. I'm sure this is the same rifle as I well remember the leather covered recoil pad and checkered bolt release. My feeling on the rifle when I owned it was that it is a rechambered and rebored .270 or 30-06. I remember running my finger over the chambering marking and feeling a very slight indentation in that area. I believe that after rechambering the original chambering marking was ground off and restamped 9.3x64 mm. It was very well done and looked very close to what would be factory markings.
That's my 2 cents on the rifle but I've been wrong about many things before so it would be interesting to see some more information from the factory about it.
Jason

 

[Red Leg]

You have just contradicted yourself there buddy. The rifle you write about in the highlighted section has a value to you does it not?? Even though it isn't original correct? Lets just try and be helpful on the forum rather than being twats.

As for British gun makers and dealers not having anything to offer I would disagree. I'm very fortunate to have a world leading arms auction house on my door step (ok about 30mins drive away) they get guns in from all over the world to sell for the vendors and are very well versed with gun valuation.

@deewayne2003 Im sure someone out there will be able to help you out. Most collectors will know whats what and if they dont they will know someone who does. I wish you the best of luck and I cant wait to read about the background on the rifle.

I have no idea what you are talking about “buddy.” American classic guns, rifles, and handguns are a highly specialized collecting field with unique valuation criteria. The originality of that rifle “buddy” is what drives its value. If it left Winchester in that exact configuration (jeweled bolt, pad, etc,) it is worth a lot of money. If it didn’t, it is an interesting shooter. I would guess that difference in value would be as much as 30,000 dollars. I would hope, ”buddy” that would be a data point of value to the OP. Perhaps as much value as anything you have added thus far?

And “buddy”, I know of no English auction house that guarantees originality of American collector firearms - regardless of their appraisal. Perhaps your friends down the road will prove my previous experiences wrong.

@DocShep your comments are invaluable and reflect what most of us suspected.

 

[Odinsraven]

The current Russian Sniper rifle (Medium ) is 9.3x64 !

 

[Odinsraven]

I have no idea what you are talking about “buddy.” American classic guns, rifles, and handguns are a highly specialized collecting field with unique valuation criteria. The originality of that rifle “buddy” is what drives its value. If it left Winchester in that exact configuration (jeweled bolt, pad, etc,) it is worth a lot of money. If it didn’t, it is an interesting shooter. I would guess that difference in value would be as much as 30,000 dollars. I would hope, ”buddy” that would be a data point of value to the OP. Perhaps as much value as anything you have added thus far?

And “buddy”, I know of no English auction house that guarantees originality of American collector firearms - regardless of their appraisal. Perhaps your friends down the road will prove my previous experiences wrong.

@DocShep your comments are invaluable and reflect what most of us suspected.

Here in Europe or Merry old England we really do not care - it is in good condition it goes bang kinda nailed it at that - the rest is decorations on the tree !