Pre-64 Winchester 70 9.3x64 Brenneke - The mystery continues

[Ray B]

“buddy.” “buddy” ”buddy” “buddy”

It appears someone is touchy regarding the use of terms of familiarity. I suppose the poster could have used others more popular with DemonRat politicians and Rap-noise makers. Maybe those touchy-feelers would be more comfortable being referred to as an MF.

 

[Red Leg]

It appears someone is touchy regarding the use of terms of familiarity. I suppose the poster could have used others more popular with DemonRat politicians and Rap-noise makers. Maybe those touchy-feelers would be more comfortable being referred to as an MF.

And your point is? Best I can tell this guy also thought it was appropriate to also refer to me as a "twat." You have an equally irrelevant opinion on that as well?

 

[deewayne2003]

Gentlemen please... I have respect for the opinions of people posting in this forum; many of who have helped me with my own personal firearm issues and done so with great detail and I appreciate everyone that has helped me as some of you posting here know I have contacted you about different subjects I needed advice on by PM in the past; again thank you.

As I sit here giggling as I know Red Leg is certainly no twat

I sent a pm to DocShep who has some details; and I have also heard back from pre-64 collectors of non-catalogue calibers and I'll see what I can find out.

 

[Red Leg]

Gentlemen please... I have respect for the opinions of people posting in this forum; many of who have helped me with my own personal firearm issues and done so with great detail and I appreciate everyone that has helped me as some of you posting here know I have contacted you about different subjects I needed advice on by PM in the past; again thank you.

As I sit here giggling as I know Red Leg is certainly no twat

I sent a pm to DocShep who has some details; and I have also heard back from pre-64 collectors of non-catalogue calibers and I'll see what I can find out.

It is great that the two of you are in direct communication. This is worth turning over every potential rock to be sure of the rifle's provenance - one way or the other.

 

[lwaters]

Now that I have knowledgeable people here what is this model 42 winchester 3in 410 worth?

 

[Red Leg]

The Model 42 is a wonderful thing. Like all collectable firearms it depends. For basic models like this "Blue Book of Gun Values" is hard to beat.

Your photo is crap which complicates valuation because percentage of original condition is everything. One in 100% condition without a solid rib is a $2K gun and frankly, in the right auction would push $3K. HOWEVER, the same gun in 60% condition is valued at $875. I can't tell anything about the metal condition from the photo or whether it has ever been reblued. HOWEVER, that white line pachmayr pad and cut stock to attach it are value killers. If the metal is otherwise 90% and never been refinished, it might be considered a 80% gun and would be worth a grand or a little more. I suspect most dealers would mark it $1200. If it is a 70 - 80% gun with the pad, I would fetch around $800 - $900.

That is my opinion without being able to hold it.

 

[CBH Australia]

Well, I will stay posted I would like to see what the outcome is on the first rifle,
And I will accept Redleg advice on the .410, i expect he has a fair idea on American arms.

 

[mark-hunter]

In order to try to help the OP, I went to reasearch of my own, through my collection of Gun Digest magazines, since number 1 (1944) till edition as of 1963.

However, my reasearch was all in vain.

Have no positive result on winchester m70, in 9.3x64.
In GD edition, 1963, which is the last to have a chance (for pre 64 win m70), below is the list of calibers, per each contemporary american made rifle. (Winchester, Browning, Remington, etc)
Lack of european metric chamberings in American contemporary factory made rifle is evident. 9.3x64 not available.

For example, win m70 in 1963, was available in: 220 swift, 243 win, 264 win, 270 win, 308 win, 30-06, 300 HH, 338 win, 358, 375 HH, 458 win mag.
In similar way, although same table is not given in all eariler magazine editions, I could not trace 9.3x64, in earlier production GD catalogues.

 

[Red Leg]

In order to try to help the OP, I went to reasearch of my own, through my collection of Gun Digest magazines, since number 1 (1944) till edition as of 1963.

However, my reasearch was all in vain.

Have no positive result on winchester m70, in 9.3x64.
In GD edition, 1963, which is the last to have a chance (for pre 64 win m70), below is the list of calibers, per each contemporary american made rifle. (Winchester, Browning, Remington, etc)
Lack of european metric chamberings in American contemporary factory made rifle is evident. 9.3x64 not available.

For example, win m70 in 1963, was available in: 220 swift, 243 win, 264 win, 270 win, 308 win, 30-06, 300 HH, 338 win, 358, 375 HH, 458 win mag.
In similar way, although same table is not given in all eariler magazine editions, I could not trace 9.3x64, in earlier production GD catalogues.


View attachment 369378

Good piece of research.

However, if it is real and in that caliber, it would have been a "special" custom shop creation and thus not catalogued. We do know a few European bored rifles were produced by the custom shop over the years. Rule's book states that 13,283 "special" Model 70's were made prior to 1964. These included custom touches like a leather covered pad and special request chamberings as rare as 7.65 Argentine. For instance, I know of at least one 9x57 that was authenticated (original order documentation maintained by the original owner) and sold for a king's ransom some years ago. There is one in .405 that has been accepted as authentic that has changed hands a couple of times (I think the actual production record was located).

A pre-64 standard grade in .308 is extraordinarily rare. A dealer had one with a fairly high five-figure price tag on it recently.

Because of this collector driven valuation insanity, there are many more fake rare Model 70's than real ones. Some of the forgery efforts are easy to detect. But others were done by master craftsmen and raging debates over the authenticity of a particular rifle can continue for years with no resolution. The same nonsense occurs with the Colt single action army, Parkers etc. The other technique forgers use is to turn a 50% rifle into a 99% rifle. Some of these fakes are almost undetectable, but can move the value of a gun in auction by many thousands of dollars. Other forgers have created period aged hang tags and even "original" shipping boxes.

It is why very few auction houses actually will authenticate originality - caveat emptor. I know of no European auction house remotely interested in getting into those sorts of collector valuations of American firearms. Back to my discussion with @norfolk shooter, he is free to call me a "twat" all he wishes, but I know of no auction house or gunmaker in the UK who could offer a meaningful opinion on this particular rifle's originality and thus its value. A sale "estimate" is something very different than authentication.

This percentage of original condition and authentication madness, is one reason many of us enjoy owning older European firearms that were "freshened" as a matter of course during their lifetime. Though even with British firearms, a WR rifle, for instance, with a non WR set of bases and rings likely will sell in the States for less than the same rifle would in the UK due to its non-originality.

 

[mark-hunter]

@Red Leg
Thank you for such indepth reply.
My thought at the beggining was, either custom work shop rifle, or foregery, but about both of those, I virtually have no idea. But standard factory rifle, it is not.

 

[norfolk shooter]

@Red Leg surely putting an estimate of something is placing a value on an item. You can get a authenticity with a value but then its only worth that if somebody is willing to pay the given value. From what you have said the US and UK market are VERY different. I now know that.

Oh have a look at these guys for an auction house https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/ they even value stuff for insurance purposes. If you ask me I think they know what they are talking about.

Once again best of luck to the OP

 

[norfolk shooter]

And your point is? Best I can tell this guy also thought it was appropriate to also refer to me as a "twat." You have an equally irrelevant opinion on that as well?

I think you missed the point. I wasn't calling YOU a twat. I was saying lets not act like twats and bicker like school boys and be helpful. As in lets just draw a line under it.

Maybe my standard of British English isn't up to the American English standard (I have never got that as we both speak the same language).

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg surely putting an estimate of something is placing a value on an item. You can get a authenticity with a value but then its only worth that if somebody is willing to pay the given value. From what you have said the US and UK market are VERY different. I now know that.

Oh have a look at these guys for an auction house https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/ they even value stuff for insurance purposes. If you ask me I think they know what they are talking about.

Once again best of luck to the OP

Actually, Holts is the British house with which I have the most experience. I would trust them absolutely on a Cashmore, a Rigby, or even a standard production American firearm - absolutely not with regard to a rare collectable one. And I suspect you would find that they would be the first to agree. I would again simply note that an auction estimate has little to do with the actual value of many auctioned items. It is why many American collectors haunt European and regional American auctions for unrecognized treasures regardless the object.

I think you missed the point. I wasn't calling YOU a twat. I was saying lets not act like twats and bicker like school boys and be helpful. As in lets just draw a line under it.

Maybe my standard of British English isn't up to the American English standard (I have never got that as we both speak the same language).

I am pretty sure that I was trying to be helpful, though the OP can make a determination with regard to that. I at least have some meaningful experience with the grading and valuation of American collectable firearms. That is not something that can be said about everyone that barged into this dialogue regardless of their elocution.

 

[norfolk shooter]

I am pretty sure that I was trying to be helpful, though the OP can make a determination with regard to that. I at least have some meaningful experience with the grading and valuation of American collectable firearms. That is not something that can be said about everyone that barged into this dialogue regardless of their elocution.

That I'm not questioning I just think all this "I know more than you all" is a little unnecessary. I remember you from the DSC get together and as I recall your a pleasant chap and I for one wont let somthing as minor as this to change that opinion. I guess we in the UK just dont come across unusual American firearms that often.

 

[rookhawk]

@norfolk shooter take a moment to meditate and re-read what I’ve said and what @Red Leg has said. We’re not connecting and you’re missing elements of American production gun collecting you don’t understand as a Brit. @Red Leg and I both know Nick Holt and can render as many opinions on British guns as your experts over there. In fact, they would know more about Gibbs, Rigby, Grants, and Woodward’s than we would over here.

BUT, for American guns you haven’t got a clue and your British sensibilities won’t even comprehend the absurd nature of American gun collecting. The aforementioned gun as a rebore is worth as little as $600 on a bad day and $2500 on a good day. As an authenticated original $10,000-$45,000 would be a guess, but I wouldn’t bet my life it wouldn’t fetch $85,000 if the right two bidders don’t go to war on it.

compare that to a rigby. Mint with papers, never fired, worth say $30,000. Shot 1000 rounds through it, handled but little wear, oil freshened over the years, value? $30,000. Same. Value in European arms is the current quality as presented in hand. American arms? A replacement set of ivory grips versus factory original grips could make a $150,000 gun a $15,000 gun.

I’m not saying this is the way it should be, only that this is the way it is.

And if we seem firm or a bit testy, it’s only because outrageous claims require extraordinary evidence. For every 100 “unknown holy grail Winchester’s“ that hit the net, maybe one is legitimate. Counterfeit Rembrandt painters are amateurs compared to counterfeiters of colts and winchester.

One famous dealer @Red Leg surely knows too was selling counterfeit Winchester’s for $125,000 a pop. He’d buy $2500 model 21s that didn’t have papers in the archive of the Cody museum. He’d then take these grade 1 guns and apply grade 6 engraving to them. He had the rust salt recipes, vintage hang tags, and the original grade 6 layout tracings.

As a Brit you can’t fathom any of this because no Brit would buy a $1000 Westley Richards, forge best engraving, and pawn it off on the masses. (Because it wouldn’t be worth the financial trouble to do so). But in America, absolutely.

A friend of mine went to a show on the East Coast ten years ago and saw THREE AH Fox invincibles with the same serial number! Hmmm. How about Czar Nicholas’ $300,000 shotgun that was proved a forgery recently?

welcome to America.

 

[rookhawk]

That I'm not questioning I just think all this "I know more than you all" is a little unnecessary. I remember you from the DSC get together and as I recall your a pleasant chap and I for one wont let somthing as minor as this to change that opinion. I guess we in the UK just dont come across unusual American firearms that often.

bingo. It’s not arrogance, it’s that we know something you wouldn’t believe because what we know sounds absurd. But it’s true! FYI, everyone on this thread prefers the way a Brit values a gun I suspect, it’s not personal, just sharing the warped realities of “US Holy grail guns”

 

[spike.t]

Mani I did try to explain how different it is..

 

[norfolk shooter]

@norfolk shooter

BUT, for American guns you haven’t got a clue and your British sensibilities won’t even comprehend the absurd nature of American gun collecting.



welcome to America.

A dear friend and forum member has educated me on this. And yes its freeking nuts. I prefer the way we look at firearms in the UK. I'll just stick to the British and European stuff.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Mani I did try to explain how different it is..

You beat me to it. That and I didnt beleve you

 

[spike.t]

You beat me to it. That and I didnt beleve you