Potentially new dangerous game cartridges coming to market?

[geoff rath]

Why?....

Exactly

 

[geoff rath]

I know something about a British maker developing some new rounds. And thats all im saying

I've heard of a 416Rigby Rimmed, from British Maker ...

 

[geoff rath]

Not sure where you are looking but looks like 416 Rigby is available $120-$130 per box hornady or barnes. 416 ruger $40 cheaper.
View attachment 525586View attachment 525587

Huge range available, compared to what we could get in Afrika, or Australia ...

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I’m 71 years old. When I was a kid, dangerous game calibers referred mostly to the old British classics. Germany had the 9.3x62mm Mauser, the 9.3x64mm Brenneke and the 10.75x68mm Mauser (not counting the already obsolete 11.2x72mm Schuler or the .500 Jeffery). Austria had the 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer (which was dismal for hunting dangerous game). America had the .405 Winchester (which was considered an obsolete caliber back then). But barring that, everything else was British.

Then, Kynoch (the only company who was producing ammunition for the British dangerous game calibers except the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) began to slowly scale down ammunition production in the 1950s (when Great Britain began losing it’s colonies where dangerous game could be hunted) before completely closing shop in 1972. This caused American firearms manufacturers to bring out 3 new dangerous game calibers during this time.

They were:
.458 Winchester Magnum
.378 Weatherby Magnum
.460 Weatherby Magnum

Each of them came with their own set of problems (which are well documented).
Later (in the 1980s and 1990s), came a few others.

A Square came out with their proprietary calibers:
.375 A Square
.460 A Square Short
.470 Capstick
.495 A Square
.500 A Square
.577 Tyrannosaur

None of these lasted very long in terms of popularity. And today, they’ve almost completely vanished from the face of the earth.

Remington came out with 2:
.375 Remington Ultra Mag
.416 Remington Magnum

Ruger came out with 2:
.375 Ruger
.416 Ruger

Holland & Holland came out with 2:
.400 Holland & Holland Magnum
.465 Holland & Holland Magnum

Kreighoff came out with the .500/416 Nitro Express.
Sako came out with the .370 Sako Magnum.
John Rigby & Co. came out with the .450 Rigby.

Jack Lott developed the .458 Lott.
Harald Wolf developed a version of the .500 Jeffery without the rebated rim (while his innovation never caught on, it almost singlehandedly brought back the .500 Jeffery from the dead and lead to it becoming a popular caliber again).
Ross Seyfried developed the .585 Nyati.

So, yes. I’ve seen A LOT of new dangerous game calibers hit the market during my time. But to me, all of them seemed as if they were trying to reinvent the wheel.

Today, the only ones which have retained popularity are:
.375 Ruger
.416 Ruger
.416 Remington Magnum
.500/416 Nitro Express
.450 Rigby
.458 Lott

The .458 Winchester Magnum was popular for a time (1957-early 1980s). But only because it was (at the time) the only dangerous game caliber for which factory loaded ammonium was commercially available.

The .375 Ruger, .416 Ruger, .416 Remington Magnum and .458 Lott survived principally due to one advantage which their manufacturers exploited- They (rifles & ammunition in these calibers) are less costly than their British predecessors (.375 Holland & Holland Magnum, .416 Rigby, .450 Nitro Express). The .450 Rigby offers no advantage over the .458 Lott (practically speaking) but is popular among Anglophiles who wanted a British equivalent to the .458 Lott. The .500/416 Nitro Express did something very useful. It provided the ballistic capabilities of the .416 Rigby in a double rifle.

Barring this, most people in our line of interest opt for the traditional British Nitro Express calibers. The reason is simple:

”If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”

These calibers were designed at a time when bag limits and closed seasons were unheard of. They were used by hunters who were able to shoot big game in the hundreds (if not thousands). They were the Golden Age calibers.

 

[PerH]

Rigby to release new calibre: the .416 Rigby No. 2 - John Rigby & Co.

Press Release: 29 May 2019 More than two decades after the development of their last cartridge, LondonLearn more

www.johnrigbyandco.com

A little while ago on the ,416 nr 2 , same specs, ballistic as the Bolt rifle.


Jig bores up here before Nitros came back was . 375m458,,416, 404, and some others. Most people kept a .338 Winlevel or .45-70 . .340 Wby ,9,3 into that.

Then Weatherby got popular ,and .460 Wby was wildcatted into .500 Asquare rather easy. It was perhaps the most used above .458 levels her for few years. Nordic Safari Klub,and their Big Bore Shoot competition and classes had much of that.

Then Svein Solli and Erik Prestmo in Weaponjournal did much for .416, .404 and many others ,both gun builds and together with others their excellent Reloading books, Ladeboken. Even wildcat data also mentioned.

 

[Northern Shooter]

I’m 71 years old. When I was a kid, dangerous game calibers referred mostly to the old British classics. Germany had the 9.3x62mm Mauser, the 9.3x64mm Brenneke and the 10.75x68mm Mauser (not counting the already obsolete 11.2x72mm Schuler or the .500 Jeffery). Austria had the 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer (which was dismal for hunting dangerous game). America had the .405 Winchester (which was considered an obsolete caliber back then). But barring that, everything else was British.

Then, Kynoch (the only company who was producing ammunition for the British dangerous game calibers except the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum) began to slowly scale down ammunition production in the 1950s (when Great Britain began losing it’s colonies where dangerous game could be hunted) before completely closing shop in 1972. This caused American firearms manufacturers to bring out 3 new dangerous game calibers during this time.

They were:
.458 Winchester Magnum
.378 Weatherby Magnum
.460 Weatherby Magnum

Each of them came with their own set of problems (which are well documented).
Later (in the 1980s and 1990s), came a few others.

A Square came out with their proprietary calibers:
.375 A Square
.460 A Square Short
.470 Capstick
.495 A Square
.500 A Square
.577 Tyrannosaur

None of these lasted very long in terms of popularity. And today, they’ve almost completely vanished from the face of the earth.

Remington came out with 2:
.375 Remington Ultra Mag
.416 Remington Magnum

Ruger came out with 2:
.375 Ruger
.416 Ruger

Holland & Holland came out with 2:
.400 Holland & Holland Magnum
.465 Holland & Holland Magnum

Kreighoff came out with the .500/416 Nitro Express.
Sako came out with the .370 Sako Magnum.
John Rigby & Co. came out with the .450 Rigby.

Jack Lott developed the .458 Lott.
Harald Wolf developed a version of the .500 Jeffery without the rebated rim (while his innovation never caught on, it almost singlehandedly brought back the .500 Jeffery from the dead and lead to it becoming a popular caliber again).
Ross Seyfried developed the .585 Nyati.

So, yes. I’ve seen A LOT of new dangerous game calibers hit the market during my time. But to me, all of them seemed as if they were trying to reinvent the wheel.

Today, the only ones which have retained popularity are:
.375 Ruger
.416 Ruger
.416 Remington Magnum
.500/416 Nitro Express
.450 Rigby
.458 Lott

The .458 Winchester Magnum was popular for a time (1957-early 1980s). But only because it was (at the time) the only dangerous game caliber for which factory loaded ammonium was commercially available.

Barring this, most people in our line of interest opt for the traditional British Nitro Express calibers. The reason is simple:

”If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”

Interesting take regarding the .458 WM. I would have thought that would be one of the higher volume sellers, especially in the American market given the price point and Winchester name.

Do you believe we are beyond the days of new DG cartridges coming to market?

Is there any gap you see where a manufacturer could fulfil by reinventing a new cartridge?

We already have both Magnum and standard length offerings for:
1. 375H&H - 375 Ruger
2. 416 Rigby - 416 Ruger
3. 458 Lott - 458 WM
4. 505 Gibbs - 500 Jeffery.

The 500 is the only one I can think of that hasn't had a modern standard length action rendition since the 1920s with the 500 Jeffery. Maybe there is opportunity here for someone to make a modern 500?

I can't see any further evolution happening to the Nitro Express family of cartridges.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Interesting take regarding the .458 WM. I would have thought that would be one of the higher volume sellers, especially in the American market given the price point and Winchester name.

Do you believe we are beyond the days of new DG cartridges coming to market?

Is there any gap you see where a manufacturer could fulfil by reinventing a new cartridge?

We already have both Magnum and standard length offerings for:
1. 375H&H - 375 Ruger
2. 416 Rigby - 416 Ruger
3. 458 Lott - 458 WM
4. 505 Gibbs - 500 Jeffery.

The 500 is the only one I can think of that hasn't had a modern standard length action rendition since the 1920s with the 500 Jeffery. Maybe there is opportunity here for someone to a modern 500?

I can't see any further evolution happening to the Nitro Express family of cartridges.

In regards to the .458 Winchester Magnum, it was initially met with very positive reception. Then, the case capacity problems (which resulted in either low velocities or compressed charges with poor shelf life) came to light by the early 1970s.

I believe that instead of designing new calibers, manufacturers should rather think of producing more rifles and ammunition offerings in EXISTING calibers. As it is, every year… options keep getting more and more limited.

Regarding the .500, there was the .500 A Square and the .500 Jeffery. Both of which can be built on standard length actions. A close friend of mine in Australia owns a .500 Jeffery which was very affordably built on a Zastava Model 70 action. The .500 Jeffery can be loaded with 570Gr bullets (same weight as those used by the .500 Nitro Express) and pushed to 2350 fps (which is 200 fps faster than the .500 Nitro Express).

 

[86thecat]

How about a 400Ruger?
350 gn at .400.
SD would be .313.
Harder hit than a 375R.
Better velocity and flatter trajectory than .416R.
Would need to develope bullets.
Fits in existing Ruger rifles.
Could use 10mm pistol bullets for plinking.
Market as a 10mm Alaskan to handle big bears.
Stopping calibers begin with a "4".

 

[grand veneur]

I see no need for new big bore cartridges.

We already have far too many on the market so it is becoming increasingly difficult to choose one or the other. The only positive thing about it, is that there are enough cartridges for all preferences. @Hunter-Habib has listed well the cartridges, I only regret that in addition to the more or less newer cartridges from US-development, the cartridge 460 WBY-Magnum unfortunately could not prevail. Weatherby there made some mistakes in marketing.

One also have to take into account that the majority of hunters have problems with such cartridges, and that is why the trend nowadays is going more and more in the direction of smaller bore cartridges for hunting Big Game. It all started decades ago when the minimum caliber of 10mm for DG was reduced to .375, mainly to have enough clients. I therefore find it difficult how anyone wants to enter the market with new Big Bores.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

In regards to the .458 Winchester Magnum, it was initially met with very positive reception. Then, the case capacity problems (which resulted in either low velocities or compressed charges with poor shelf life) came to light by the early 1970s.

I believe that instead of designing new calibers, manufacturers should rather think of producing more rifles and ammunition offerings in EXISTING calibers. As it is, every year… options keep getting more and more limited.

Regarding the .500, there was the .500 A Square and the .500 Jeffery. Both of which can be built on standard length actions. A close friend of mine in Australia owns a .500 Jeffery which was very affordably built on a Zastava Model 70 action. The .500 Jeffery can be loaded with 570Gr bullets (same weight as those used by the .500 Nitro Express) and pushed to 2350 fps (which is 200 fps faster than the .500 Nitro Express).

The 495 A Square fits into that category as well correct? There’s the 500 MDM as well.

Really don’t see any big manufacturers ever making a production rifle in anything other than 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeff, or 500 NE in .50 cal. Regularly that is.

 

[Northern Shooter]

How about a 400Ruger?
350 gn at .400.
SD would be .313.
Harder hit than a 375R.
Better velocity and flatter trajectory than .416R.
Would need to develope bullets.
Fits in existing Ruger rifles.
Market as an Alaskan Rifle to handle big bears.
Stopping calibers begin with a "4".

Aren't 350grain projectiles already available for 375? I know it's not offered in Hornadys factory loadings for 375Ruger but I've seen them with 375H&H.

A 350 grain 375 would have an even higher sectional density of .356.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

How about a 400Ruger?
350 gn at .400.
SD would be .313.
Harder hit than a 375R.
Better velocity and flatter trajectory than .416R.
Would need to develope bullets.
Fits in existing Ruger rifles.
Could use 10mm pistol bullets for plinking.
Market as an Alaskan Rifle to handle big bears.
Stopping calibers begin with a "4".

Stopping calibers begin at .458

 

[Northern Shooter]

I see no need for new big bore cartridges.

We already have far too many on the market so it is becoming increasingly difficult to choose one or the other. The only positive thing about it, is that there are enough cartridges for all preferences. @Hunter-Habib has listed well the cartridges, I only regret that in addition to the more or less newer cartridges from US-development, the cartridge 460 WBY-Magnum unfortunately could not prevail. Weatherby there made some mistakes in marketing.

One also have to take into account that the majority of hunters have problems with such cartridges, and that is why the trend nowadays is going more and more in the direction of smaller bore cartridges for hunting Big Game. It all started decades ago when the minimum caliber of 10mm for DG was reduced to .375, mainly to have enough clients. I therefore find it difficult how anyone wants to enter the market with new Big Bores.

I think you echo the general consensus here that the market doesn't need any further new DG cartridges, that all gaps have been covered and that we just need increased production of the existing cartridges and rifles.

Another note regarding the 460Weatherby. That cartridge become the poster child of the big bore cartridges that were banned here in Canada in 2020 due to it exceeding the arbitrary10,000j energy limit.

 

[grand veneur]

Producing many more weapons in Big Game calibers doesn't make sense in my opinion either. Who should buy it ?

In North America the market may look a little better, but in Europe, such weapons are not so often sold. With caliber 416 rigby, things quickly come to an end.

I rather think that some things will be reduced on this market over time, especially in times where a trophy import ban is discussed everywhere and more and more airlines are causing trouble when it comes to transporting rifles and ammunition.

As for the cartridge 460 WBY-Magnum, loading it so hard that it produces over 10000 Joules and a recoil that is not exactly pleasant, was also a mistake by Weatherby.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

We as AH members should collectively buy the bankrupted remains of RCC and make all the brass we want. We can just churn out enough 9mm, 223/556 and 308/7.62 brass a year to break even

 

[meigsbucks]

Most of this is just a rehash of what others have said but due to the limited customer base, IMO, the DG bases are covered. We do need ammo and components to be made more available.
There is one aspect of DG rifles I would like to see reversed: CZ no longer makes the 550. Ruger no longer produces the #1 in DG chamberings. Kimber dropped the .416 Rigby and .458 Lott chamberings in the Caprivi. The CZ is probably a done deal, but I’d like to see the others make at least limited annual runs, maybe a chambering a year.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Most of this is just a rehash of what others have said but due to the limited customer base, IMO, the DG bases are covered. We do need ammo and components to be made more available.
There is one aspect of DG rifles I would like to see reversed: CZ no longer makes the 550. Ruger no longer produces the #1 in DG chamberings. Kimber dropped the .416 Rigby and .458 Lott chamberings in the Caprivi. The CZ is probably a done deal, but I’d like to see the others make at least limited annual runs, maybe a chambering a year.

I have a feeling that Ruger will only focus on their 375/416 Ruger cartridges and even still, they barely produce those.

I feel like Winchester may be the last saving grace with the model 70 line. It's already offered in 3 DG cartridges, maybe if enough of us email them illustrating the market demand for others (.404, 500, 505 etc) they may actually produce it.

Other than Winchester, MAYBE Sako will eventually have something for us with their future products.

 

[PerH]

If Winchester would make .458 ammo again,as they invented it back then.


And Ganyana, apostle Don Heath developed .41 and .44 Ganyana

Cut ,404 to 2.5 inch, neck to ,41 and .44 . Use pistol bullets, hc lead , and custom Stewart 400 grain cup core,bonded .


Newton made a .40 Newton also, which is similsr to Ruger case, do he made one decades before many others,but market, finances and such said goodbye to his further developments.

 

[geoff rath]

Aren't 350grain projectiles already available for 375? I know it's not offered in Hornadys factory loadings for 375Ruger but I've seen them with 375H&H.

A 350 grain 375 would have an even higher sectional density of .356.

Woodleigh produce 350 grain 375 cal bullets, Round Nose, with an SD of .323, in a special Heavy Duty format. Hopefully back on the market soon..

 

[PerH]

Ruino make a 380 grain bonded and solid also

I believe it was Frontier years ago that made. 400 grain cup core Fmj that looked like a huge classic style of the old types.