Potentially new dangerous game cartridges coming to market?

[Brian Rothhammer]

Austria had the 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer (which was dismal for hunting dangerous game).

Have you any details or examples in this regard?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Have you any details or examples in this regard?

1) The book "Tigers Of Trengganu" by Colonel Arthur Locke (1954). The Colonel was forced to deal with several man eating Malayan tigers during the Malayan Emergency. He was armed with a 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer and on several occasions... the tigers survived for prolonged periods of time even after getting multiple 270Gr Kynoch soft point bullets to the vital organs.

2)" Shikar In The Days Gone By" (2009) by Pakistani Governor Gohar Ayub Khan (now Retired). He documents his first attempt to shoot a Royal Bengal tiger in 1956. He was using a 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer loaded with Kynoch 270Gr soft points. A frontal chest shot couldn't anchor the tiger. Later, the animal was eventually killed via gun-trap set by a forest guard. Postmortem showed that the 270Gr soft point had been unable to penetrate the frontal chest muscles of the tiger and reach the heart. That forest guard used to work under me from 1981 to 1989. We are still friends and even @PerH knows him.

3) "African Dangerous Game Calibers" (2011) by Pierre Van Der Walt. It breaks down why a 270Gr .375 caliber bullet travelling at 2150 fps is not a suitable dangerous game cartridge.

It was great for leopards, however. And this caliber saw use in Sri Lanka for leopard hunting by a gentleman named Easton Sahib, who used it for hunting 2 leopards in the 1930s. His adventures are referenced in the Bengali book "Heda Bon Er Shikar Kahini" (1982) by the late Dr. Aktaruzzaman Pathan.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

It was great for leopards, however. And this caliber saw use in Sri Lanka for leopard hunting by a gentleman named Easton Sahib, who used it for hunting 2 leopards in the 1930s. His adventures are referenced in the Bengali book "Heda Bon Er Shikar Kahini" (1982) by the late Dr. Aktaruzzaman Pathan.

You aren't teasing me are you? Where can such book be found? Is it available in English or can it be found online to run through a translator?

A Google search of "Heda Bon Er Shikar Kahini" showed no result.

Google Translate shows Heda Bon Er Shikar Kahini to be The hunting story of the head bone.

This is my Grandfather, John Forrest Easton, on shikar in Ceylon, 1932.
I am inheritor and custodian of the cased M1910 Mannlicher Schoenauer Take Down Model:

From the Wingfoot, a Goodyear company newsletter, Spring 1932.

The pelt has long since rotted (was not properly cured / stored), claws reside in the Mannlicher's fitted case.

John Forrest Easton carrying M1910 Mannlicher Schoenauer Take Down Model, January 1932.

John Forrest Easton with M1910 Mannlicher Schoenauer TD, Ceylon 1930.
Pith Helmet (sola topee) has long since succumbed to time and decay.

Back of above photograph.

Captioned on back; The Brothers Anthonisz at Nana Oya, Jan 19, 1932.

Johnny's Cat.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Google Translate shows Heda Bon Er Shikar Kahini to be The hunting story of the head bone.

Oh, my. Head Bone ??? Yeah, I too have often had a few very embarrassing results while using Google Translate.

”Bon“ means “Forest” in Bengali. “Heda” refers to a kind of tree, also called “Gojari”. The book has 2 editions. The first edition is called “Heda Bon Er Shikar Kahini” (1982). The second edition is called “Gojari Bon Er Shikar Kahini” (2006)

Here is the book. Authored by Dr. Pathan. And Chapter which detail Easton Sahib's 2 leopard hunts (the book is basically a collection of old Asiatic hunting stories between 1871-1971).

I was unfortunately wrong about one thing. Having just gone through the chapter, it appears that Mr. Easton successfully shot only 1 leopard with the ".375 Mannlicher". The other one was wounded by the Mannlicher, but needed to be followed up and was eventually shot by another member of the hunting party (armed with a W.J. Jeffery 12 Gauge ball-and-shot-gun). He did use it to shoot one wild boar as leopard bait though.

It's a really small world. I read this book first in 1983 and now I'm interacting with the grandson of one of the hunters mentioned in the book. If I can help in any other way, do let me know.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Austria had the 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer (which was dismal for hunting dangerous game).

I've read that the 9.5X57 / .375 Nitro Express Rimless, properly loaded, should be an excellent cartridge for feral pigs. Someday I'd like to get around to testing the theory.

I've reloaded for and shot 'targets' with the M1910, all with Hornady 3715 projectiles (270 grain RNSP), but have not yet had the chance at large feral boar.

To shoot critters where I live now requires unleaded fuel and I do have a supply of these, which I have not yet loaded:

Intended recipients would be large, invasive, 'wild boar' in the Southern Sierra Nevada of California (with depredation permit, of course). What would be your recommendations?

I have previously loaded the 270 grain Hornadys with 42 grains of IMR4895.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Oh, my. Head Bone ??? Yeah, I too have often had a few very embarrassing results while using Google Translate...

...I was unfortunately wrong about one thing. Having just gone through the chapter, it appears that Mr. Easton successfully shot only 1 leopard with the ".375 Mannlicher". The other one was wounded by the Mannlicher, but needed to be followed up and was eventually shot by another member of the hunting party (armed with a W.J. Jeffery 12 Gauge ball-and-shot-gun). He did use it to shoot one wild boar as leopard bait though.

It's a really small world. I read this book first in 1983 and now I'm interacting with the grandson of one of the hunters mentioned in the book. If I can help in any other way, do let me know.

In 'American English', bonehead is a way of saying 'fool'.

I'm glad you aren't 'fooling'!

I can't say for sure with what the buffalo was dispatched, but the caption claims it as his ("my buffalo"). Logic would dictate that the large cartridges about his waist in photo (certainly not 9.5MS) were not just for show.

I know it is asking a lot, but would it be possible to have the passages relevant to Mr. Easton transcribed in English and posted here?

Cartridges for that big bore Jeffery are likely what is seen 'round Grand - Dad's waist.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

It's a really small world. I read this book first in 1983 and now I'm interacting with the grandson of one of the hunters mentioned in the book. If I can help in any other way, do let me know.

I wish I had been aware (unlikely as it would have been) that this book existed in 1982.
I'd love to have shown it to Mr. Easton.

In that same year, in my early twenties, I lived with my grandparents for a month or three while searching for job and apartment after returning to Southern California from Florida (an overrated sauna).

A favorite pastime of mine on 'off days' was to go through the wonderful photo albums and papers with Grand Dad and soak in his recollections. Born in Overbrook, Kansas, was teacher at a one room schoolhouse at 16 (the schoolmaster was drafted; it was 1918), had a female Boy Scout leader at the same time for the same reason, hopped freights to get out of Kansas, was lifeguard at Catalina Island in early 1920s, started with Goodyear at Akron, Ohio, advanced to Airship Division, transferred to oversight of purchasing operations in 'The Orient'.

First deployed to Colombo, Ceylon (where Mom was born) in 1930, the Easton family had moved to Singapore by 1934.

There's a photo of Mom in the July, 1940, issue of National Geographic captioned; "The lady and the tiger... the pigtailed lass is the daughter of an American who buys rubber here for Goodyear." The article regarded "war jitters" of Singapore and assurances that all would be fine and well. Before long the 'bug out' would be ordered.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I've read that the 9.5X57 / .375 Nitro Express Rimless, properly loaded, should be an excellent cartridge for feral pigs. Someday I'd like to get around to testing the theory.

I've reloaded for and shot 'targets' with the M1910, all with Hornady 3715 projectiles (270 grain RNSP), but have not yet had the chance at large feral boar.

View attachment 527023

To shoot critters where I live now requires unleaded fuel and I do have a supply of these, which I have not yet loaded:

View attachment 527025


Intended recipients would be large, invasive, 'wild boar' in the Southern Sierra Nevada of California (with depredation permit, of course). What would be your recommendations?

I have previously loaded the 270 grain Hornadys with 42 grains of IMR4895.

I recommend the traditional lead cored 270Gr Hornady soft points. I recently had Hendershots Custom Ammunition load me 100 rounds of 7x57mm Mauser cartridges by using 175Gr Hornady Interlock soft point bullets and Winchester Super X cases. From the 26 inch barrel of my 7x57mm Mauser Churchill Gun Makers Model Deluxe rifle, I'm consistently getting 2458 fps when I run the loads through a chronograph. I've shot 2 very large tusked male wild boars with these cartridges. Both were one shot kills. One animal weighed 264 pounds. The other one weighed just over 300 pounds. In both cases, the Hornady Interlock bullets performed magnificently.

I don't recommend using monolithic bullets in the 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer. This is due to the anaemic case capacity. This caliber can push standard 270Gr lead cored bullets out at only 2150 fps. Due to the monolithic bullets being less dense than their traditional lead cored counterparts, a 270Gr .375 caliber monolithic bullet will be longer (and thus reduce powder capacity more) than a lead cored .270Gr .375 caliber bullet. So velocities would be even lower than 2150 fps if you were using monolithic bullets.

Monolithic expanding bullets (like the Barnes X) require a good velocity so that they expand properly inside game. At less than 2150 fps, I have very strong doubts about them working properly when pushed out of a 9.5x57mm Mannlicher Schoenauer.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

In 'American English', bonehead is a way of saying 'fool'. I'm glad you aren't 'fooling'! I can't say for sure with what the buffalo was dispatched, but the caption claims it as his ("my buffalo"). Logic would dictate that the large cartridges about his waist in photo (certainly not 9.5MS) were not just for show. I know it is asking a lot, but would it be possible to have the passages relevant to Mr. Easton transcribed in English and posted here? View attachment 527034 View attachment 527035 Cartridges for that big bore Jeffery are likely what is seen 'round Grand - Dad's waist. View attachment 527044 View attachment 527045

@Brian Rothhammer
The guide beside your grandfather in the photo with the leopard, is a Dutch professional hunter by the name of Lediboor. He is carrying a 12 gauge Webley & Scott Ball-and-Shot gun (these had 2 1/2” chambers). The native is carrying Mr. Easton’s 12 gauge John Rigby & Co. Ball-and-Shot gun (these also had 2 1/2” chambers). Mr. Easton used the Rigby in a driven hunt for shooting 2 Chital stags. Also used it for shooting a large amount of red jungle fowl and green pigeon (with Eley Gas Tight 1 1/8 oz No. 6). Leopard was shot at night with the 9.5x57mm MS by using a shooting lamp. He was found very far away in the following morning. Bullet had hit a lung. Buffalo was shot with lead coated steel cored bullet from Rigby 12 gauge. Was a broadside lung shot.

Let my daughter and grandchildren come to visit me on this weekend. They are much more technologically savvy than an old fossil like me. I’ll see if I can get the whole chapter translated for you.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I was one bid away from winning a BRNO 602 in 450 Rigby at Rockisland Auction.

@Captain Munro
A bit off topic but I know where there's a 300 Newton complete with dies and brass for sale for 600 dollars Australia.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Sometimes you get things right the first time. There really haven't been many legit defensive handgun rounds in the last 100 years either. 357 sig and 40 maybe but that's it. 45 gap doesn't count......

9mm and .45acp have been around forever and still rule the roost. Not a whole lot of room for improvement. Same with DG calibers. Most guys like old school stuff and that stuff works great.

Although a 50BMG necked down to 375 would be pretty sick.....

503

@503
Go the full hog mate
50BMG necked up to 600 or 700 cal.
Now that would be awesome.
1,000gn projectile at 2,500 fps.
Hang on to you hat when you touch that baby off.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[Flewis]

Sometimes you get things right the first time. There really haven't been many legit defensive handgun rounds in the last 100 years either. 357 sig and 40 maybe but that's it. 45 gap doesn't count......

9mm and .45acp have been around forever and still rule the roost. Not a whole lot of room for improvement. Same with DG calibers. Most guys like old school stuff and that stuff works great.

Although a 50BMG necked down to 375 would be pretty sick.....

503

I thought the 357 s&w was ok, as was the 41 rem mag and maybe the 10mm.

 

[Flewis]

I guess the 454 and to a lesser extent the 480 ruger are hunting rounds.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Will you be calling your new invention the 416 Mustache?

@Wheels
@norfolk shooter would look very strange without that big moustache.
His dog would probably even bite his as he wouldn't recognise him.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

If Winchester would make .458 ammo again,as they invented it back then.


And Ganyana, apostle Don Heath developed .41 and .44 Ganyana

Cut ,404 to 2.5 inch, neck to ,41 and .44 . Use pistol bullets, hc lead , and custom Stewart 400 grain cup core,bonded .


Newton made a .40 Newton also, which is similsr to Ruger case, do he made one decades before many others,but market, finances and such said goodbye to his further developments.

@PerH
Newton also did the fine 35 Newton that is basically an early 358 Norma.
Bob

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

@Brian Rothhammer
The guide beside your grandfather in the photo with the leopard, is a Dutch professional hunter by the name of Lediboor. He is carrying a 12 gauge Webley & Scott Ball-and-Shot gun (these had 2 1/2” chambers). The native is carrying Mr. Easton’s 12 gauge John Rigby & Co. Ball-and-Shot gun (these also had 2 1/2” chambers). Mr. Easton used the Rigby in a driven hunt for shooting 2 Chital stags. Also used it for shooting a large amount of red jungle fowl and green pigeon (with Eley Gas Tight 1 1/8 oz No. 6). Leopard was shot at night with the 9.5x57mm MS by using a shooting lamp. He was found very far away in the following morning. Bullet had hit a lung. Buffalo was shot with lead coated steel cored bullet from Rigby 12 gauge. Was a broadside lung shot.

Let my daughter and grandchildren come to visit me on this weekend. They are much more technologically savvy than an old fossil like me. I’ll see if I can get the whole chapter translated for you.

Thank you so much for this information.

I would greatly appreciate reading the chapter in English and suspect that the AH community may find it to be of interest, as well.

Thank you in advance.

 

[503]

@503
Go the full hog mate
50BMG necked up to 600 or 700 cal.
Now that would be awesome.
1,000gn projectile at 2,500 fps.
Hang on to you hat when you touch that baby off.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

After a certain point the recoil would have more energy than the bullet haha

 

[503]

I thought the 357 s&w was ok, as was the 41 rem mag and maybe the 10mm.

Yea they are, but still just a few handgun rounds that are in common use for hunting and self defense. There are hundreds of rifle calibers and the clowns at hornady come out with new ones all the time.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Will you be calling your new invention the 416 Mustache?

Id call it the 600 or the 500 Mani

 

[Forrest Halley]

@503
Go the full hog mate
50BMG necked up to 600 or 700 cal.
Now that would be awesome.
1,000gn projectile at 2,500 fps.
Hang on to you hat when you touch that baby off.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

Didn't someone have one of them the other month or two? A .50 BMG necked up to .700 three shot at like 20# for the modest sum of $13k