Politics

[Red Leg]

We should separate technical development from tactical and operational deployment of armored forces.

I believe it is correct to say that the USSR provided a training environment for officers like Guderian to fully mature their concepts of combined arms maneuver. The Germans all acknowledged Captain Liddell Hart (British) as the theorist upon whose concepts of mobile warfare were most important to the creation and employment of Wehrmacht armored formations in WWII. I don't believe they would credit any operational or tactical revelations to the Soviet Union.

Technically however, they should have studied Russian tank development far more closely. The extremely fast, robust, and heavily gunned (relative to the time) Soviet designs of the 20's and 30's were a harbinger of the eventual superiority of Russian armor during the war. When in the fall of '41 the T-34 appeared on the battlefield it was superior to anything the Germans were then using. The improved PZ IV, Panther series, and Tiger redressed that balance to some extent, but the 34 remained far more robust and battle serviceable than its German counterparts. Once equipped with the 85mm gun it was a match for anything on the German side and superior to anything on tracks in the West. We shouldn't forget that a relatively small number of them manned by hastily trained North Koreans nearly ran us off the peninsula in 1950.

But as you note, I can't think of anything about combined arms armored warfare that the Russians would have taught the Germans in the thirties. The Soviets, on the other hand, attended a very demanding school in the art of mobile warfare conducted by the Germans in 41 and 42.

 

[Hunter4752001]

I wonder if the lack of progress by Russian forces actually indicates poor training and capacity or whether its the outcome of soldiers not wanting to murder a people who appear no different from their own friends and family? The easy banter between the tank crew and the passing civilian (asking if they want him to tow them back to Russia) and the tank crew unwilling to run down the unarmed civilian standing in front of them point to troops very uncomfortable with their orders. Even the use of Siberian troops ( who presumably are not conflicted by familial ties to the Ukrainian people) doesn't seems to have produced the ruthless aggression expected. They clearly can't understand why they are there.

I also note the body language displayed by the Generals when Putin made his nuclear alert speech. They clearly seemed taken aback. I wonder how long before the President for Life becomes another covid statistic?

 

[One Day...]

... I don't believe they would credit any operational or tactical revelations to the Soviet Union.

The point I was making, indeed.

Technically however, they should have studied Russian tank development far more closely ... etc. etc.

Agreed.

PzKW II (a few were still in service for Barbarossa); PzKW III, that formed, with the Czech-made PzKW 38, the brunt of the German Panzerwaffe in 1941 with their low velocity 37 mm main gun ("the door knocker"); and the very few PzKW IV who were available in 1941, but with their 75 mm howitzer mostly ineffective as an antitank weapon, were hopelessly outclassed by the original T34/76. The Germans were lucky that so few were available in 1941 (and that they were as ineptly engaged as the French armor in 1940).

This furthers the points that had the Germans supposedly benefited from Soviet teaching and Soviet tank high tech, they would have shown up in 1941 with better hardware; and that the Soviets were no great masters of tank tactics at the onset of WW II.

But as you note, I can't think of anything about combined arms armored warfare that the Russians would have taught the Germans in the thirties. The Soviets, on the other hand, attended a very demanding school in the art of mobile warfare conducted by the Germans in 41 and 42.

Agreed and agreed. And they learned. A lot. *

All of that to say that I am not entirely sure that the Kamil Galeev thread is very credible considering the liberties that it takes with history

* Which makes it difficult for me to believe that they apparently unlearned everything, if the commonly accepted evaluation of their performance in Ukraine is accurate. That is unless the point you make re. maintenance is the primary factor. I knew it to apply to their aircraft (e.g. SU 35), but not to their ground vehicles (e.g. T90, even though it indeed had its teething issues).

 

[cpr0312]

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Biden to one of his assistants: Anyone know how to contact Chuck Norris? We're going to need him!

 

[sgt_zim]

You are too kind to the UN. I would characterize them as incompetent and irrelevant.

Their incompetence is only rivaled by their malevolence and rank hypocrisy.

 

[jeanes]

I love this site. Where else could I learn about hunting Africa, fine firearms, fine watches, cigars, whisky and improve my vocabulary with words like elucubration as well as criticize political and journalistic hypocrisy and circumlocution.

 

[Ray B]

While the UN is setting new standards for incompetence, irrelevance, malevolence and hypocrisy, their real forte is their arrogance.

 

[Wheels]

 

[spike.t]

Not good...from BBC app

 

[hyipl]

 

[Odinsraven]

There is little of value worth or need produced by the USA so no big one for me ....PPU or Knoch for ammo rifles well can't think of any American rifle I would desire to own ....Cars nothing much there either ....food .....yeah ...I really cannot think of anything I desire from the USA .......

The USA has labelled both Canada and the EU as threats to their "National Security" in order to justify new duties declared by their military Commander-in-Chief on the international trade of steel and aluminum. So I suggest that USA made products such as firearms and ammunition should be sold exclusively within the USA so Canada and Europe can help our esteemed neighbour defend themselves and improve their national security. Sadly, I have come to the conclusion that Canadians and Europeans should make do with their own products exclusively. For all our AfricaHunting friends in Canada, Europe, Africa and elsewhere, please don't buy any American made products. Lets's support the USA in their concern. One can never be too careful when there are evil guys to deal with, and it is our duty to help, as always.

 

[Foxi]

"and that the Soviets were no great masters of tank tactics at the onset of WW II."

not only in tank tactics.
In addition, the immense human losses of the Red Army were also the result of the Russian generals shitting themselves in front of Stalin
and recklessly and often stupidly sacrificed their soldiers.
Without Roosevelt's clever land/lease agreement, Stalin would not have made a stab.
We lost WW1 from the day the Americans interfered and WW2 also
Lesson learned

 

[Opposite Pole]

Lesson learned

Would you mind expanding on that?

 

[Foxi]

Would you mind expanding on that?

even if some things have gone wrong in geopolitical terms and some things are in trouble (you only have to read the political discussions here).
Nevertheless:
without the USA as a constitutional state
without the Americans
the free world will perish.
I am convinced of that.

Rock solid and ironclad
Foxi

 

[Opposite Pole]

even if some things have gone wrong in geopolitical terms and some things are in trouble (you only have to read the political discussions here).
Nevertheless:
without the USA as a constitutional state
without the Americans
the free world will perish.
I am convinced of that.

Rock solid and ironclad
Foxi

No argument there.

 

[Vashper]

There is little of value worth or need produced by the USA so no big one for me ....PPU or Knoch for ammo rifles well can't think of any American rifle I would desire to own ....Cars nothing much there either ....food .....yeah ...I really cannot think of anything I desire from the USA .......

Fuel oil. Iceland depends on its fishing fleet.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Biden's "State of the Union" speech is tonight. Just wondering, given the heightened state of alert, will VP Harris not be in attendance and safely viewing from an undisclosed location.

 

[Randy F]

Biden's "State of the Union" speech is tonight. Just wondering, given the heightened state of alert, will VP Harris not be in attendance and safely viewing from an undisclosed location.

I hate to say it but neither one are in control of anything anyway it would seem.

 

[PARA45]