Politics

[375 Ruger Fan]

Really? Kim not throwing nukes, Vlad not invading anyone, Isis gone, no new wars, Iran at heel, peace deals in the Middle East, Covid vaccine. Massive ashievements despite the dems and their perpetual undermining. Get your head out of the local bucket of pettiness and look at what this president means to the wider world - thats leadership!

@Kevin Peacocke some of the points you bring up are spot on accurate and some are not. I think your comment on "the local bucket of pettiness" is laughable, as I believe I have a pretty good world view having worked and lived in many developing countries around the world. Projects I've worked on were some of the largest investments in many of these countries and typically involved dealing with the host government as well as the US State Department on many issues.

I voted for Trump, but don't see him as a great leader. Trump was simply better than the alternative. Yes, he was able to accomplish some amazing things, like Middle East peace (somewhat), no new wars and the COVID vaccine. Trump addressing a growing threat from China has actually been one of his better accomplishments too. But to contain China, a strong coalition will be required and Trump has shown a talent for alienating our friends while stroking the egos of our enemies.

Trump, with the luck of timing, has placed 3 conservatives on the US Supreme Court and this will likely be a good part of his legacy.

Trump is the Republican version of Hillary: Very strong supporters, but very high negatives too. That's why Trump didn't get reelected.

As far as North Korea, Kim has never thrown nukes as you put it (did some underground testing), and to most knowledgeable folks on the subject of North Korea, nothing has changed during Trump's 4 years. Kim has played Trump, just as he played the past several US presidents.

ISIS and their derivatives (Boka Haram, etc) are alive and well and continue to be a threat, as per two former Trump National Security Advisers (Bolton & McMaster).

You stated Iran is at heel: Really? Who is lobbing missiles into Saudi and stirring up trouble in Iraq and Syria? Iran and Russia, that's who. Iran and Russia continue to be threats, particularly on the cyber front. Cyber issues might lead us into the next shooting war. The recent deployment of the US Navy submarine to the Persian Gulf, a very publicly announced deployment, is recognition that Iran needs to be watched closely, with one in the chamber.

 

[V.Veritas]

I wasn’t sure what is the best thread to post the Tytler circle, so Politics it is.

Taking a step back from the ever changing hot topics of the day, the question I ponder lately is the following: when the human nature is what it is, at what point in time the elected blue or red party stopes making a difference? The strength of a nation is determined by the current shared core values of it’s people and not from the elected officials.

Based on these shared core values, I would place Canada between Apathy and Dependence on the Tytler circle.

Where do you think US finds itself at this moment? (Or your own country - whichever that may be - for that matter).

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler,_Lord_Woodhouselee)

 

[Royal27]

I wasn’t sure what is the best thread to post the Tytler circle, so Politics it is.

Taking a step back from the ever changing hot topics of the day, the question I ponder lately is the following: when the human nature is what it is, at what point in time the elected blue or red party stopes making a difference? The strength of a nation is determined by the current shared core values of it’s people and not from the elected officials.

Based on these shared core values, I would place Canada between Apathy and Dependence on the Tytler circle.

Where do you think US finds itself at this moment? (Or your own country - whichever that may be - for that matter).

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler,_Lord_Woodhouselee)

Probably about the same.

All nations, civilizations, and societies fall at some point. Our fall, at least from greatness, is close if not already in process. It's just part of the circle of life.

 

[lwaters]

Probably about the same.

All nations, civilizations, and societies fall at some point. Our fall, at least from greatness is close if not already in process. It's just part of the circle of life.

I don't think the 30 year war has help. I think public support for the world police role is eroding. Some country always fills the gap.

 

[Ray B]

That's why Trump didn't get reelected.

WRONG!!!

President Trump and the USA are victims of the biggest theft in the history of the world.

 

[Rick Cox]

WRONG!!!

President Trump and the USA are victims of the biggest theft in the history of the world.

When you get some SOLID evidence please share it.

 

[Rick Cox]

I wasn’t sure what is the best thread to post the Tytler circle, so Politics it is.

Taking a step back from the ever changing hot topics of the day, the question I ponder lately is the following: when the human nature is what it is, at what point in time the elected blue or red party stopes making a difference? The strength of a nation is determined by the current shared core values of it’s people and not from the elected officials.

Based on these shared core values, I would place Canada between Apathy and Dependence on the Tytler circle.

Where do you think US finds itself at this moment? (Or your own country - whichever that may be - for that matter).

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler,_Lord_Woodhouselee)

Interesting. I'm not sure about your placement for Canada on this scale. I think I would spin the dial back a natch or two, but a good argument would change my mind.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

@Kevin Peacocke some of the points you bring up are spot on accurate and some are not. I think your comment on "the local bucket of pettiness" is laughable, as I believe I have a pretty good world view having worked and lived in many developing countries around the world. Projects I've worked on were some of the largest investments in many of these countries and typically involved dealing with the host government as well as the US State Department on many issues.

I voted for Trump, but don't see him as a great leader. Trump was simply better than the alternative. Yes, he was able to accomplish some amazing things, like Middle East peace (somewhat), no new wars and the COVID vaccine. Trump addressing a growing threat from China has actually been one of his better accomplishments too. But to contain China, a strong coalition will be required and Trump has shown a talent for alienating our friends while stroking the egos of our enemies.

Trump, with the luck of timing, has placed 3 conservatives on the US Supreme Court and this will likely be a good part of his legacy.

Trump is the Republican version of Hillary: Very strong supporters, but very high negatives too. That's why Trump didn't get reelected.

As far as North Korea, Kim has never thrown nukes as you put it (did some underground testing), and to most knowledgeable folks on the subject of North Korea, nothing has changed during Trump's 4 years. Kim has played Trump, just as he played the past several US presidents.

ISIS and their derivatives (Boka Haram, etc) are alive and well and continue to be a threat, as per two former Trump National Security Advisers (Bolton & McMaster).

You stated Iran is at heel: Really? Who is lobbing missiles into Saudi and stirring up trouble in Iraq and Syria? Iran and Russia, that's who. Iran and Russia continue to be threats, particularly on the cyber front. Cyber issues might lead us into the next shooting war. The recent deployment of the US Navy submarine to the Persian Gulf, a very publicly announced deployment, is recognition that Iran needs to be watched closely, with one in the chamber.

@375 Ruger Fan I hear you, but I dont think there has ever been a leader who has it all right, humans are bound to have faults. Trump has his fair share. But it is the overall intent that is probably more important in the realm of reality. If one accepts that, then the next yardstick of measurement or judgement is the extent of achievement. I do think Trump was on the right track with intent, but my frustration stems from the degree of opposition he got, all of the obstacles that stifled not just Trump, but the USA itself. There comes a point where opposition within is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Why do I care, I am not American as you know? Because there are massive forces at play in the world today - Chinese dominance being the biggest threat. Even if Trump had the execution awry, which is a debate for another time, where are we with Biden who looks to be a compromised apologist? The world needs the USA, this is a time for big picture artists, and I think you may have just lost one, albeit a bit of a Picasso, and replaced him with a geriatric with crayons.

 

[Ray B]

When you get some SOLID evidence please share it.

No amount of evidence solid or otherwise will change the outcome anymore than your hero Vincenzo de Firenzuola was able to flatten the Earth.

 

[cpr0312]

 

[Red Leg]

Breaking — Police identify suspect in Nashville bombing…

Nashville bombing suspect identified as 63-year-old Anthony Quinn Warner Video of property search… A law enforcement source tells CBS News a person …

www.citizenfreepress.com

Regrettably, this is looking more and more like it will turn out to have been one of the more unstable comment providers on "Info Wars" or "What Finger News."

 

[Red Leg]

@375 Ruger Fan I hear you, but I dont think there has ever been a leader who has it all right, humans are bound to have faults. Trump has his fair share. But it is the overall intent that is probably more important in the realm of reality. If one accepts that, then the next yardstick of measurement or judgement is the extent of achievement. I do think Trump was on the right track with intent, but my frustration stems from the degree of opposition he got, all of the obstacles that stifled not just Trump, but the USA itself. There comes a point where opposition within is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. Why do I care, I am not American as you know? Because there are massive forces at play in the world today - Chinese dominance being the biggest threat. Even if Trump had the execution awry, which is a debate for another time, where are we with Biden who looks to be a compromised apologist? The world needs the USA, this is a time for big picture artists, and I think you may have just lost one, albeit a bit of a Picasso, and replaced him with a geriatric with crayons.

I think the point @375 Ruger Fan was making was with regard to his leadership style and technique, not necessarily his goals and objectives. I voted for him with great reluctance the first time, and with only slightly more conviction the second. Those votes were cast based upon what he was attempting to accomplish - not based upon how he was trying to do it. Indeed, I am more convinced than ever, he has been pretty awful at "leading" the country. That doesn't mean he can't seem a good leader to his dedicated followers, or that, on the whole, his policies weren't wise and in the nation's best interests. As I say, I certainly thought they were. But his uncanny ability to turn on anyone who didn't wholly support him (particularly through the twitterverse) tended to solidify and galvanize his opponents rather than expand his supporters and to further isolate him from much of his own party. For a politician (or non-politician) in national office, that is a prescription for eventual failure.

My guess is his experiences owning and running non-public enterprises where the owner/president doesn't have to navigate a real board of directors or engaged share-holders did not serve him well in developing the leadership style necessary to mold an electorate or maneuver representative bodies to support his vision for the country.

Abraham Lincoln is the great example in my mind of the leader who entered great office loved by none, and yet knitted those rivals and outright enemies into a nation-saving coalition that left him revered to the present day. Trump merely fired them or drove them to resignation where their movement to the sidelines or into the actual opposition gradually undermined his chances of legislative success and eventual reelection.

I will be the first to admit that is difficult in an environment where 90+ % of one's press coverage is negative, but his incessant tweeting disparaging anyone and everyone had meant they were free to do it without meaningful backlash.

Finally, if the conservative movement is incapable of genuinely processing the fact that more than half the country opposes its ideals and goals; that we lost this election - in part by being out maneuvered - but largely by being out voted; and that our chosen leader's style and temperament are unlikely to ever change that alignment, then I think I can guarantee a repetition in 2024.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

@Red Leg probably mostly true on Trump's negative points, but look at the choice? Would we be better off with another four years of Trump, or with Biden, and/or sucessor, for possibly another eight? A lot of Dems held their noses and voted for Biden in a strong show of solidarity, could the marginal Republicans not have done so too considering the stakes? It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Please clarify one thing for me so I can understand the dynamics better - are the Dems and Republicans numerically about equal? Did Dems vote for Trump in 2016, and this time did Republicans vote for Biden? Is it about two solid blocks with a wavy middle, or are Dems forever in the majority? If it is the latter, then as this polarisation takes a grip then is the only chance for a conservative future to win over the Blacks and Hispanics?

 

[fourfive8]

@Kevin Peacocke
The Dems have had a majority of the registered voters within the general population for quite some time. In most elections a swing is caused by one or both of two things. Some on one side don't show up to vote or some vote for the opposing candidate or a combination of the two. You are exactly right about a large percentage of the Dems generally blindly voting the ticket in solidarity and seemingly no amount of counter evidence or facts will sway them. This trend really started when FDR introduced modern socialism/welfare to the US and a bunch of people hurt during the Great Depression bought into the idea of big government welfare.

And you are exactly right about what is called the "Never Trump" movement- it is obvious it is mental state or even a disorder that has permeated all levels of the country- the populace, the media (watch CNN for the past 4 years and try to cnvince me otherwise), the bureaucrats, the judicial, the legislative, the executive at the state level- all. There is a blind hatred for Trump that is very difficult to understand but it is real. Apparently many fence sitters, aka Independents, RINOS, "Country Club" Republicans, et al feel they can escape criticism or blame by taking the "high ground" stance of non-commitment while letting the Dems take over- no matter the stakes or likely outcome. It is a philosophy I fail to understand. It is indeed like cutting off your nose to spite your face. The stakes in this election are indeed high, possibly the highest in our history. I just hope those taking this stance will live long enough to realize the folly and reap the rewards.

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg probably mostly true on Trump's negative points, but look at the choice? Would we be better off with another four years of Trump, or with Biden, and/or sucessor, for possibly another eight? A lot of Dems held their noses and voted for Biden in a strong show of solidarity, could the marginal Republicans not have done so too considering the stakes? It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Please clarify one thing for me so I can understand the dynamics better - are the Dems and Republicans numerically about equal? Did Dems vote for Trump in 2016, and this time did Republicans vote for Biden? Is it about two solid blocks with a wavy middle, or are Dems forever in the majority? If it is the latter, then as this polarisation takes a grip then is the only chance for a conservative future to win over the Blacks and Hispanics?

If you will reread what I wrote, I am not arguing with regard to his priorities (though I think he undervalues the international coalitions we have so painstakingly built over the last 70 years - particularly with the rising threat of China). What has frustrated me has been a leadership style that has helped harden and even embolden his opponents while not growing his own political base. It has also alienated many traditional members of his own party who genuinely believe "being presidential" is an important part of the job description.

During the Cold War and the long period of post WWII prosperity, the vast majority of Americans occupied a political middle ground. Presidential candidates such as McGovern or Goldwater who seemed to represent the more extreme views of either party were soundly defeated by that moderate majority that swung between the standard bearers of national elections. For instance, Jimmy Carter won fairly handily and Reagan overwhelmingly just four years later.

The collapse of the Soviet Union removed a powerful international threat that moderated much international political misbehavior - the old Cold War axiom that politics stopped at the water’s edge. At the same time, the outsourcing of ever greater percentages of our industrial production put enormous stress on what constituted the nation’s traditional middle class. We were slowly becoming a nation of wealthy corporate leadership, comfortably middle class bureaucrats, and waiters. Conservative “Blue Dog” democrats and socially and culturally liberal republicans slowly found themselves with no place at the table. Recall as well, the average millennial's first real economic awakening occurred during the great recession of 2007 - not one of capitalism's greatest moments.

All of this has tended to put enormous pressure on the consensus that made up the moderate middle. Like squeezing a balloon the more rigidly dogmatic bases have grown on either wing. Radically different political solutions are now proposed routinely for every social, economic, and cultural issue.

In some ways Trump has accelerated that process. Many people in this country looked at Trump as little more than a wealthy, mercurial, if harmless, buffoon. I would count myself in that number, and I did not support him at all in the primaries. But he became the nominee, and I absolutely could align myself with his economic vision - particularly the plan to revitalize and incentivize domestic production. I continue to question his foreign policy instincts.

Many others could not do that. Hence the Trump derangement syndrome to which @fourfive8 refers. Many in both parties and throughout the media were unable or unwilling to take him seriously. Therefore, they opposed anything and everything he championed regardless of the merits of the issue or the proposal. I think Trump helped solidify this opposing consensus by treating any and all opposition as the acts of enemies. He therefore never grew his base.

As a result, any sort of grounds for consensus or compromise evaporated. This tended to fuel otherwise ridiculous efforts such as Mueller's investigation and the impeachment farce while empowering way too much serious attention to socialism and social justice agendas. At the same time, his more ardent supporters convinced themselves that he really represented a vast majority of patriotic but silent supporters who would sweep him to reelection for a second term. Both represent problematic foundations for political progress because both are based on fantasy.

 

[spike.t]

Bit of a change of subject....

ThriveOn is Closed

www.thriveon.com

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

If you will reread what I wrote, I am not arguing with regard to his priorities (though I think he undervalues the international coalitions we have so painstakingly built over the last 70 years - particularly with the rising threat of China). What has frustrated me has been a leadership style that has helped harden and even embolden his opponents while not growing his own political base. It has also alienated many traditional members of his own party who genuinely believe "being presidential" is an important part of the job description.

During the Cold War and the long period of post WWII prosperity, the vast majority of Americans occupied a political middle ground. Presidential candidates such as McGovern or Goldwater who seemed to represent the more extreme views of either party were soundly defeated by that moderate majority that swung between the standard bearers of national elections. For instance, Jimmy Carter won fairly handily and Reagan overwhelmingly just four years later.

The collapse of the Soviet Union removed a powerful international threat that moderated much international political misbehavior - the old Cold War axiom that politics stopped at the water’s edge. At the same time, the outsourcing of ever greater percentages of our industrial production put enormous stress on what constituted the nation’s traditional middle class. We were slowly becoming a nation of wealthy corporate leadership, comfortably middle class bureaucrats, and waiters. Conservative “Blue Dog” democrats and socially and culturally liberal republicans slowly found themselves with no place at the table. Recall as well, the average millennial's first real economic awakening occurred during the great recession of 2007 - not one of capitalism's greatest moments.

All of this has tended to put enormous pressure on the consensus that made up the moderate middle. Like squeezing a balloon the more rigidly dogmatic bases have grown on either wing. Radically different political solutions are now proposed routinely for every social, economic, and cultural issue.

In some ways Trump has accelerated that process. Many people in this country looked at Trump as little more than a wealthy, mercurial, if harmless, buffoon. I would count myself in that number, and I did not support him at all in the primaries. But he became the nominee, and I absolutely could align myself with his economic vision - particularly the plan to revitalize and incentivize domestic production. I continue to question his foreign policy instincts.

Many others could not do that. Hence the Trump derangement syndrome to which @fourfive8 refers. Many in both parties and throughout the media were unable or unwilling to take him seriously. Therefore, they opposed anything and everything he championed regardless of the merits of the issue or the proposal. I think Trump helped solidify this opposing consensus by treating any and all opposition as the acts of enemies. He therefore never grew his base.

As a result, any sort of grounds for consensus or compromise evaporated. This tended to fuel otherwise ridiculous efforts such as Mueller's investigation and the impeachment farce while empowering way too much serious attention to socialism and social justice agendas. At the same time, his more ardent supporters convinced themselves that he really represented a vast majority of patriotic but silent supporters who would sweep him to reelection for a second term. Both represent problematic foundations for political progress because both are based on fantasy.

Thanks for taking all the effort to make sense of all this Red Leg. So with the obvious need to keep America strong and project a united front to the many external challenges, what is the solution? Trump didnt lose this election by much, if at all, and to disenfranchise 90 million followers, very productive ones, is surely not on the cards? But how do you bring it all back together, even reasonably so? Today I doubt the other half will buy that politics ends at the water's edge.

 

[Red Leg]

Bit of a change of subject....

ThriveOn is Closed

www.thriveon.com

After Review, Minnesota Lawmakers Say COVID Deaths Heavily Inflated

redstate.com

Another bit of Covid analysis that won't see any media coverage because it doesn't fit the "we're all going to die" hysteria.

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks for taking all the effort to make sense of all this Red Leg. So with the obvious need to keep America strong and project a united front to the many external challenges, what is the solution? Trump didnt lose this election by much, if at all, and to disenfranchise 90 million followers, very productive ones, is surely not on the cards? But how do you bring it all back together, even reasonably so? Today I doubt the other half will buy that politics ends at the water's edge.

That is a very good question.

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks for taking all the effort to make sense of all this Red Leg. So with the obvious need to keep America strong and project a united front to the many external challenges, what is the solution? Trump didnt lose this election by much, if at all, and to disenfranchise 90 million followers, very productive ones, is surely not on the cards? But how do you bring it all back together, even reasonably so? Today I doubt the other half will buy that politics ends at the water's edge.

That is a good question and perhaps I should add a bit more. I should add, this is just one person's opinion.

I readily admit I do not see myself as a follower of any individual. When I vote for a President, I look at it as hiring a guy who best represents my interests and beliefs. I don't pledge allegiance to him - he works for me (and every other voter who supported him). The best of our Presidents have remembered that they also work for those who voted against them.

The following Trump has and their personal investment in him is new in my experience and fairly unique in my reading of American history. The only other two who would even come close are probably Andrew Jackson and Franklin Roosevelt. That adoration tends to blind large segments of my party and what I consider the "conservative movement" to a lot of healthy critical thinking. If the leader says show up in Washington on X date, hundreds of thousands will. If the leader says I actually won both the popular vote and the electoral college by a landside, then that is what happened. There is zero latitude among the base for any contrary view. The courts are all crooked, Trump's closest advisors were all traitors, all Republicans are secretly democrats, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deserving of ridicule, shunning, and condemnation.

I think part of the blame are the echo chambers in which too many on both sides exist. Watch CNN, MSNBC, or any of the traditional mainstream media and you will be fed a steady stream of "news" and opinion that fits one set of perceptions and constantly reinforces them. The Orange Man is evil and thus everything he does is evil and must be opposed. It is a self-delusional ignorance that makes things like BLM, late term abortion, and the transgender fad seem normal. I mean after all, Portland just reelected its mayor. Surf the conservative blogs and the reader/watcher is treated to exactly the same sort of self-perpetuating belief system as his antagonist on the left.

If you haven't I would urge you to pull up Salon https://www.salon.com/ and Brietbart https://www.breitbart.com/ and simply browse the comments sections of almost any article on either site. Depressing, but illustrative of where are.

We even have seen it on this site and this thread. "I can not bear to read what you are saying so I am leaving never to return" even though the people whom he appears to suddenly despise are politically aligned with him to probably the 90th percentile. Others resort to casting personal aspersions - typically when there is no logical counter argument to be made. Still others will hit the ignore switch to save themselves from any view contrary to their preconceptions. If that sort of nonsense is going on here among a very homogenous and largely like-thinking membership, you can see the challenges facing our somewhat more diverse nation.

And I have no idea how to fix it quickly. As I have said to some ridicule previously, I think we are in a generational battle, and we have already been defeated on several of those battlefields (academia, the media, etc). If we lose GA in the next week, I am not sure how we halt this slide to even begin to regain the initiative.