Politics

[Red Leg]

Interesting list

U.S. Security Cooperation with Ukraine - United States Department of State

The United States, our allies, and our partners worldwide are united in support of Ukraine in response to Russia’s premeditated, unprovoked, and unjustified war against Ukraine.  We have not forgotten Russia’s earlier aggression in eastern Ukraine and occupation following its unlawful seizure of...

www.state.gov

Seems like a lot. But, let's look at armor and fire support. Those are only enough Bradley infantry fighting vehicles to outfit three battalions of mech infantry. That is just a single battalion's worth of M1 tanks. The HIMARS launchers represent one and a half battalions. In a war with Russia, that is an inconsequential reinforcement. We could be doing so much more and have the armor and fire support sitting in storage to do it.

 

[John Wasmuth]

I see there are still people swallowing cnn’s brand of BS hook, line, and sinker……

 

[PARA45]

 

[jpr9954]

The situation is not looking good for shipping and the west...last thing needed is prices going up more due to these religious fanatics.....nothing but the destruction of the west, and taking over the world is good enough for them....

Share Message - Tanker hit off India coast by drone from Iran, says US

Tanker hit off India coast by drone from Iran, says US

Saturday's attack caused a fire on board the chemical tanker in the Indian Ocean, the US military says.

www.bbc.co.uk

There are times when I think Iran just needs to be turned to glass but then I remember most Iranians hate their regime.

 

[Brent in Az]

The Fed chairman has already announced three (3) interest rate cuts for next year. Amazing that works in an election year.

And fuel prices have dropped just before the holidays.

 

[Brent in Az]

They don't want you to have freedom.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

 

[bowjijohn]

Tabacs to sell ammo ?

Vive la France

 

[BSO Dave]

You have a remarkable ability to argue points that I did not make. I spoke to the issue of timeline.

LOL! You have the remarkable ability to sidestep questions that you have no good answer for..

I addressed the issue of a timeline suggesting several examples of when the U.S. has at least laid out a timeline in past conflicts such as Vietnam. Obviously, because wars are dynamic, timelines for strategic objectives are rarely met. However, at least framing those objectives in a timeline suggest that there is a plan which, to date, has never been provided by this Administration in regard to Ukraine.

This POTUS publicly states loudly and often "whatever it takes for as long as it takes" and it surprises you that the majority of the population has a problem with that? Who in their right mind wouldn't?

Just the same, I would gladly forego the provision of a timeline or even the objectives for a solid financial accountability. I have a hard time understanding how supplementing Ukrainian pensions is directly contributing to the defeat of the Russian Army?

Do you sit up nights convinced we are about to commit the 1st ID or 82d Airborne into the Negev?

I don't sit up nights at all worrying about things that are beyond my control.... What did initially concern me in the beginning was escalation. But now I think that Putin would have played that card by now. He is desperate but, apparently not suicidal as was once suggested. As you said yourself many times, the Russian Army has been exposed as a bit of a paper tiger, at least in its ability to take over Europe. That, in itself, kinda throws shade on the Russia being an "existential threat to Europe" argument, doesn't it?

Have you ever asked for a clear timeline for that support? Have you ever asked what our objectives are with respect to Israel? I suspect not.

You would suspect wrongly...

I would expect the same justifications for any U.S. tax dollars and or equipment going to any foreign country regardless of who it is... Furthermore, there are immense differences between Israel and Ukraine with respect to U.S. support that need to be acknowledged... The eradication of terrorists benefits every U.S. citizen right now, and directly. Israel's enemy IS our enemy. Ukraine's defeat of Russia halts an existential, and potential threat to U.S. geopolitical interests which may not materialize for many years. Suffice to say, our relationship and obligations for Israel and Ukraine are not the same, nor should they be in my view...

Israel is a long-established ally of the U.S.... Ukraine is not...

Israel is a U.S. partner in counterterrorism who provides the U.S. with intelligence and logistical necessities... Ukraine does not..

The government of Israel is a true democracy that is an island surrounded by a sea of totalitarianism and dictatorships that are ALL existential threats to the U.S... Ukraine's is not...

Israel's government is not historically corrupt or oppressive... Ukraine's is...

Israel is, and has been for decades, fighting terrorist enemies that are common enemies to Western civilization in its entirety... Ukraine is not...

 

[Pondoro]

I should add that I believe that peace should include the return of all Ukrainian territory, inclusive of Crimea, and Ukrainian membership in NATO.

For those against support for Ukraine, please don’t forget that all of this began with Obama when we failed to honor our obligations to Ukraine in 2014. Obama set the table and Biden served the meal. We are culpable in this fiasco.

Russia will never give up Crimea and the two eastern counties Donetsk and Luhansk..unless Putin is removed and more sensible people take over..

As it stands, the best Ukraine can hope for in a peace deal is to get russian forces out of the occupied territory in the south..

Secondly..such a peace deal must me backed with some western mil. help guarantee or else you can basically wipe your behind with it..

 

[WAB]

Russia will never give up Crimea and the two eastern counties Donetsk and Luhansk..unless Putin is removed and more sensible people take over..

As it stands, the best Ukraine can hope for in a peace deal is to get russian forces out of the occupied territory in the south..

Secondly..such a peace deal must me backed with some western mil. help guarantee or else you can basically wipe your behind with it..

It can happen with the total defeat of the Russian army. I don’t think we are far from that if we will just demonstrate the intestinal fortitude to continue to support Ukraine.

 

[Pondoro]

Remember that Russia has not mobilized fully yet..

 

[WAB]

Remember that Russia has not mobilized fully yet..

Agreed, but have they really held back capable troops or are we talking about more terrified conscripts? Their approach seems to be to throw enough meat at the grinder to overwhelm it. So far that doesn’t appear viable or sustainable.

 

[Pondoro]

Agreed, but have they really held back capable troops or are we talking about more terrified conscripts? Their approach seems to be to throw enough meat at the grinder to overwhelm it. So far that doesn’t appear viable or sustainable.

The did so in WW2 too...and guess what..they won..

I have seen pics from the eastern front winter 1941...they (soviets) sent whole battalions against german mg positions...bodies piling up..almost unbelievable.. Young german soldiers suffered mental breakdowns from the slaughtering...firing for hours on end.. This russian mentality needs to be taken into consideration regarding the outcome of this war..the present russian leaders are as ruthless today..

Soviet losses in Stalingrad 1.5 million, same during the battle of Berlin..3 million in 2 major battles..!

 

[Alistair]

The did so in WW2 too...and guess what..they won..

I have seen pics from the eastern front winter 1941...they (soviets) sent whole battalions against german mg positions...bodies piling up..almost unbelievable.. Young german soldiers suffered mental breakdowns from the slaughtering...firing for hours on end.. This russian mentality needs to be taken into consideration regarding the outcome of this war..the present russian leaders are as ruthless today..

Soviet losses in Stalingrad 1.5 million, same during the battle of Berlin..3 million in 2 major battles..!

It's worth remembering however, that Putin is not Stalin and this is not WW2.

Putin's grip on power is not nearly as secure, his government is not nearly so stable or united, his population has much better access to information and the tools necessary to make their displeasure clear, and in this instance there is not any real risk to the Motherland or the possibility of the Ukrainians conducting mass ethnic cleansing of Russian population centers if they win.

There's also rather less chance for 'treasure' or 'perks' for the average Russian conscript during this conflict than there was for the average guy on the eastern front with the opportunity to loot and rape his way across Germany, Poland, Hungary or Romania in 1944/45.

Even with all those factors, Stalin had a hard enough time maintaining power during the war that he had to resort to religion as a crutch, and spent literally millions of lives maintaining his grip on power during that period.

I do not think the Russians have nearly the same appetite for this war as they did to fight in WW2 (any more than America does) and so, we shouldn't expect causalities of anywhere near that magnitude to be needed before they give up. This is not an existential threat for Russia, just for Putin.

We've already had one attempted coup that only just avoided a civil war, Putin is already leaning heavily on his internal police forces to repress anti-war protests, and if things drag on much longer, he's eventually going to run out of options and make a mistake, probably fatally. Unless of course he can swing a major victory to make it all 'worthwhile', at least to his key backers.

'We'll be home for Christmas' has not always been an accurate statement in the past... but my money right now is still on this conflict being over in 12 months, one way or another. It's just a question of who blinks first.

 

[spike.t]

Not sure if correct...but from other stuff I have read think correct.....too few vessels to do the full job....basically zero local naval involvement....so fkup....

French Navy Escorts CMA CGM Ships While US Ships Remain Stranded

This is a rapidly evolving story, please subscribe to the gCaptain on X for the latest updates. UPDATE: France has agreed to remain but under the condition they do not...

gcaptain.com

 

[Red Leg]

Remember that Russia has not mobilized fully yet..

I am not sure Putin dares attempt to do it. If he thought it was a viable response to current losses, he wouldn't be emptying prisons to replace soldiers at the front.

 

[Red Leg]

The did so in WW2 too...and guess what..they won..

I have seen pics from the eastern front winter 1941...they (soviets) sent whole battalions against german mg positions...bodies piling up..almost unbelievable.. Young german soldiers suffered mental breakdowns from the slaughtering...firing for hours on end.. This russian mentality needs to be taken into consideration regarding the outcome of this war..the present russian leaders are as ruthless today..

Soviet losses in Stalingrad 1.5 million, same during the battle of Berlin..3 million in 2 major battles..!

Soviet losses during the battle of Stalingrad were high - the general consensus is around 1.1 million killed wounded and missing out of five Soviet armies directly committed and six supporting armies. The capture of Berlin cost the Red Army far less - around 100,000 casualties. It is also worth remembering that the manpower pool in the Soviet Union was significantly larger in 42/43 and 1945 than it is now.

 

[Red Leg]

LOL! You have the remarkable ability to sidestep questions that you have no good answer for..

I addressed the issue of a timeline suggesting several examples of when the U.S. has at least laid out a timeline in past conflicts such as Vietnam. Obviously, because wars are dynamic, timelines for strategic objectives are rarely met. However, at least framing those objectives in a timeline suggest that there is a plan which, to date, has never been provided by this Administration in regard to Ukraine.

This POTUS publicly states loudly and often "whatever it takes for as long as it takes" and it surprises you that the majority of the population has a problem with that? Who in their right mind wouldn't?

Just the same, I would gladly forego the provision of a timeline or even the objectives for a solid financial accountability. I have a hard time understanding how supplementing Ukrainian pensions is directly contributing to the defeat of the Russian Army?



I don't sit up nights at all worrying about things that are beyond my control.... What did initially concern me in the beginning was escalation. But now I think that Putin would have played that card by now. He is desperate but, apparently not suicidal as was once suggested. As you said yourself many times, the Russian Army has been exposed as a bit of a paper tiger, at least in its ability to take over Europe. That, in itself, kinda throws shade on the Russia being an "existential threat to Europe" argument, doesn't it?



You would suspect wrongly...

I would expect the same justifications for any U.S. tax dollars and or equipment going to any foreign country regardless of who it is... Furthermore, there are immense differences between Israel and Ukraine with respect to U.S. support that need to be acknowledged... The eradication of terrorists benefits every U.S. citizen right now, and directly. Israel's enemy IS our enemy. Ukraine's defeat of Russia halts an existential, and potential threat to U.S. geopolitical interests which may not materialize for many years. Suffice to say, our relationship and obligations for Israel and Ukraine are not the same, nor should they be in my view...

Israel is a long-established ally of the U.S.... Ukraine is not...

Israel is a U.S. partner in counterterrorism who provides the U.S. with intelligence and logistical necessities... Ukraine does not..

The government of Israel is a true democracy that is an island surrounded by a sea of totalitarianism and dictatorships that are ALL existential threats to the U.S... Ukraine's is not...

Israel's government is not historically corrupt or oppressive... Ukraine's is...

Israel is, and has been for decades, fighting terrorist enemies that are common enemies to Western civilization in its entirety... Ukraine is not...

We clearly have no basis of either mutual understanding or debate.

 

[Red Leg]

LOL! You have the remarkable ability to sidestep questions that you have no good answer for..

I addressed the issue of a timeline suggesting several examples of when the U.S. has at least laid out a timeline in past conflicts such as Vietnam. Obviously, because wars are dynamic, timelines for strategic objectives are rarely met. However, at least framing those objectives in a timeline suggest that there is a plan which, to date, has never been provided by this Administration in regard to Ukraine.

This POTUS publicly states loudly and often "whatever it takes for as long as it takes" and it surprises you that the majority of the population has a problem with that? Who in their right mind wouldn't?

Just the same, I would gladly forego the provision of a timeline or even the objectives for a solid financial accountability. I have a hard time understanding how supplementing Ukrainian pensions is directly contributing to the defeat of the Russian Army?



I don't sit up nights at all worrying about things that are beyond my control.... What did initially concern me in the beginning was escalation. But now I think that Putin would have played that card by now. He is desperate but, apparently not suicidal as was once suggested. As you said yourself many times, the Russian Army has been exposed as a bit of a paper tiger, at least in its ability to take over Europe. That, in itself, kinda throws shade on the Russia being an "existential threat to Europe" argument, doesn't it?



You would suspect wrongly...

I would expect the same justifications for any U.S. tax dollars and or equipment going to any foreign country regardless of who it is... Furthermore, there are immense differences between Israel and Ukraine with respect to U.S. support that need to be acknowledged... The eradication of terrorists benefits every U.S. citizen right now, and directly. Israel's enemy IS our enemy. Ukraine's defeat of Russia halts an existential, and potential threat to U.S. geopolitical interests which may not materialize for many years. Suffice to say, our relationship and obligations for Israel and Ukraine are not the same, nor should they be in my view...

Israel is a long-established ally of the U.S.... Ukraine is not...

Israel is a U.S. partner in counterterrorism who provides the U.S. with intelligence and logistical necessities... Ukraine does not..

The government of Israel is a true democracy that is an island surrounded by a sea of totalitarianism and dictatorships that are ALL existential threats to the U.S... Ukraine's is not...

Israel's government is not historically corrupt or oppressive... Ukraine's is...

Israel is, and has been for decades, fighting terrorist enemies that are common enemies to Western civilization in its entirety... Ukraine is not...

On second thought, I will try to keep this brief.

With respect to Israel, I gave you the best example I could of the sort of aid we are giving Ukraine. That aid has been accounted far using the same systems and procedures that we use in Ukraine. There is also no timeline associated with that aid and never has been one. I didn't get into a discussion of the relative strategic value, but since you brought it up, let's.

Yes, there are indeed differences and almost none of them have anything to do with what you listed. Israel is an ally- an ally of almost no benefit to us. That is a fact with which no serious student of the region will argue. Not only does Israel provide almost no support to us as a regional ally, but through most of its existence it has actually been a strategic burden as we have tried to mold regional coalitions. Most of its enemies, particularly during the first twenty years of its existence, are nations we actually consider very important strategic partners. None of those partners represent existential threats to the US.

Even Iran, which is a regional opponent would be far less of a problem without Israel as a flashpoint.

None of this is to say we should abandon Israel. For a number of reasons, the US has assumed the collective post Holocaust guilt of the West. Someone needed to do so,. and in the post-war decades no one else could. The point simply is that the aid we provided them, particularly in the early decades, was formulated much like what we are doing with Ukraine.

Virtually no one in Trump world has or has had at any point in their lives the least question about what that aid entails, how it is distributed, how it is accounted for, what its strategic implications might be, when it might end, or what negative effects that aid might cause our economy.

Considering the effects of the oil embargo in the seventies, the rise of militant Islam, and a generation of war in the Middle East, those might have been legitimate questions.

The major difference with Ukraine is that Ukraine's continued existence and the resulting halt to Russian strategic ambitions is absolutely a critical national interest. You refuse to accept that or simply won't acknowledge what is absolutely clear to me. That is fine, so lets you and I not discuss it any longer.

I don't sit up nights at all worrying about things that are beyond my control.

I simply had to laugh. And if you can't see the humor, let's not discuss that either.