Politics

[mdwest]

The problem is the Palestinians have gotten 1-5 each place they have gone to… Jordan, Egypt, Europe, etc.. and it’s never worked before…

The Jordanians killed far more Palestinians over the years than the Israelis have even thought about…

This is why no one wants to open their doors to the Palestinians now..

I think I posted this much earlier in this thread… I’ve worked in the region off and on for much of my adult life.. and happen to know a handful of Palestinians that are good, hard working, honest people.. I even hired one to work in our corporate HQ for a while…

To a person, every one of them will tell you that the Palestinians are their own worst problem and that no nation should take them in… they can’t get their collective shit together and as a people have no desire to..

There are roughly 5m Palestinians in Israel between Gaza and The West Bank… there are just under 15m Palestinians in the world…the overwhelming majority live in enclaves in other Arab countries (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc), Europe, and the US… all well developed countries that have provided them everything they need to build successful lives for themselves and their families…

As a rule however they don’t assimilate with local culture, demand more than is provided, and cause far more problems than they solve…

 

[Hunt anything]

When implemented in the law, this actually means when you display gun in the public, you loose the gun. There are several clauses in law describing how guns are transported or carried, in order not to be visible.
If visible, then the person displaying the gun, is considered disturbing other citizens and in our wonderful politically correct world guns are confiscated.

I for one carry as concealed as possible, I don’t want to be the first person shot if some nut job comes to a place I’m in, I want to be the last person to shoot and only stop when the crazy is down or gone.

 

[WAB]

An answer for Gaza, not the only one, but a possible one would be a huge and bold undertaking, on the scale of the Marshall plan:
1. Get rid of Hamas.
2. Instill a new order and thinking towards useful and productive life based upon prosperity.
3. Simultaneously start rebuilding physically including production centres and commerce.
4. Create a business system based upon cooperation with Israel, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
5. Create a very strong police force to keep things in check.

Yes I know, apple pie stuff, but I really don’t see an alternative other than perpetual conflict until the biblical prophesies are fulfilled.

I think it’s very telling that other Arab nations do not want the Palestinians. Why does a two state solution have to come out of Israel’s hide and at the expense of Israel’s security?

 

[Foxi]

The problem is the Palestinians have gotten 1-5 each place they have gone to… Jordan, Egypt, Europe, etc.. and it’s never worked before…

The Jordanians killed far more Palestinians over the years than the Israelis have even thought about…

This is why no one wants to open their doors to the Palestinians now..

I think I posted this much earlier in this thread… I’ve worked in the region off and on for much of my adult life.. and happen to know a handful of Palestinians that are good, hard working, honest people.. I even hired one to work in our corporate HQ for a while…

To a person, every one of them will tell you that the Palestinians are their own worst problem and that no nation should take them in… they can’t get their collective shit together and as a people have no desire to..

There are roughly 5m Palestinians in Israel between Gaza and The West Bank… there are just under 15m Palestinians in the world…the overwhelming majority live in enclaves in other Arab countries (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc), Europe, and the US… all well developed countries that have provided them everything they need to build successful lives for themselves and their families…

As a rule however they don’t assimilate with local culture, demand more than is provided, and cause far more problems than they solve…

The problem is the Palestinians have gotten 1-5 each place they have gone to… Jordan, Egypt, Europe, etc.. and it’s never worked before…

The Jordanians killed far more Palestinians over the years than the Israelis have even thought about…

This is why no one wants to open their doors to the Palestinians now..

I think I posted this much earlier in this thread… I’ve worked in the region off and on for much of my adult life.. and happen to know a handful of Palestinians that are good, hard working, honest people.. I even hired one to work in our corporate HQ for a while…

To a person, every one of them will tell you that the Palestinians are their own worst problem and that no nation should take them in… they can’t get their collective shit together and as a people have no desire to..

There are roughly 5m Palestinians in Israel between Gaza and The West Bank… there are just under 15m Palestinians in the world…the overwhelming majority live in enclaves in other Arab countries (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc), Europe, and the US… all well developed countries that have provided them everything they need to build successful lives for themselves and their families…

As a rule however they don’t assimilate with local culture, demand more than is provided, and cause far more problems than they solve…

everything exactly to the point.
In 2008, Israeli Prime Minister Ehdud Olmert offered the Palestinians the two-state solution. The treaty was ready to be signed.
The only exception:
No navy and no air force.
No one was in favour of this in the Arab world.
Abbas certainly wasn't.

"Peace on earth and goodwill towards men".
Luke 2:14

But some people do not want peace
(probably applies to all parties there)

 

[Brent in Az]

The party of "Spineless" is what got us here.

 

[Red Leg]

I don't believe you can finish Hamas with bombs or ground invasion, that would be naive. If not Hamas some other group with pop up. But I do believe that their day to day operations can be greatly disrupted.

The point I was trying to make was we can feel bad for the what is about to happen to the people of Gaza (I do) but elected this government and cheered the killing of civilians, the rape of woman, and of families being take hostage, they aren't 100% innocent in all this.

We can argue about the execution of Afghanistan, and the end result, but unfortunately we had to be there.

I have lost friends, and know a bunch that a permanently disabled, I am tired of seeing people die. I honestly don't have any tolerance for it. Just as we are seeing today, rich men away from the front lines (seriously Hamas in Qatar) sending others to kill and die. What is going on in the Sahel region of Africa, Ukraine, and now the Middle East, it all sucks.

To your point, you can't kill them all, and the moment you stop killing/fighting, best case scenario is you bought yourself 16 to 18 years before the next group of young men come of age, and if there is no hope and no purpose to their lives then we are destined to keep having these situations. It is why ever man fears for their children, they know the evil that is out there and it is only a matter of time until it shows itself. I don't have the answers.

Israelis are not as sensitive bleeding hearts over people's feelings getting hurt like soft warm hearted Americans (that's a rant of its own).

The Isreali government doesn't play touchie-feelie politics when it comes time to fight the Israeli military doesn’t fight with their hands tied by politician like our sh:t for brains American (mostly) democrat presidents restrict US military forces.

The Six-Day War of 1967 was Isreal vs Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Isreal came out on top.

I don't like or trust reporters or any news media because never have either one reported/told the whole story from both sides. If the story can't be dramatized or used to manipulate the public to their way of thinking it's not worth reporting.

Movies are just entertainment with a lot of retakes.

When words cease to work, at what point does one stop be bullied and by what recourse, means, or opportunity does one resort to stop being bullied?

Hamas started this war by killing innocent civilians. Why is it wrong for Isreal to retaliate in kind?

@LivingTheDream is exactly correct. Israel, a nation created out of the ashes of the Holocaust, is not about to raze Gaza to the ground and exterminate its people. This is not the 2nd century BC, Gaza is not Carthage, and even there, Rome sold the surviving women and children into slavery rather than murder them. I assume most realize that whole slavery option is pretty much off the table these days?

So, Gaza will remain, and it will remain Palestinian. The best Israel can hope to do is to inflict so much punishment on those who perpetrated this attack that it will be another generation before terrorists from Gaza again represent a threat.

The two-state "solution" has indeed been US policy for a very long time. At one point, the 2000 Camp David Summit, implementation simply required Arafat's agreement after his representatives had hammered out a generally acceptable structure with the US and Israel. He could not bring himself to do it - an action that would have been Sadat-like in its statesmanship - a role Arafat war far too small to play.

What we do indeed have now is a de facto three state condition - solution is two strong a word. Two of them, the West Bank and Gaza, occupied by Palestinians.

But the situation is far more complex than just the Palestinians. During the Cold War, the Soviet Union worked very hard to keep the region in turmoil because that served its national interests by diverting US resources to the Middle East and by undermining US relationships with the Arab States upon which the US and its Western allies were dependent upon for oil and natural gas. Russia still plays a minor destabilizing roll in the region as it continues to prop up the Assad regime in Syria - its last real remaining Arab client state.

However, the primary destabilizing influence today is Iran. It is particularly dangerous because its influence is bolstered by both ideological and religious content. Generally, Sunni Arabs have very little in common with the Persian Shia culture of Iran. However, many Arab states including Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have often restive Shia populations. These potential foot soldiers are not Palestinians and they are the ones who make up the cadres of Hezbollah currently holding most of southern Lebanon. the saboteurs operating periodically in the Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia, and the Houthi movement in Yemen.

Like the Soviet Union, Iranian goals to be the hegemonic power in the Middle East are furthered by destabilization that undermines US relations with the regional Arab States. The surest way to achieve that is through regional conflict with Israel.

The US actually has been remarkably successful in balancing its commitments among both the Arab States and Israel. It is important to remember that our commitment to Israel is essentially one-sided while our relationships with the Arab States are a result of critical strategic interests. In other words, the Arab relationships are actually far more important to us strategically than Israel. Hence, the US played a major role in quickly bringing to a close the wars in '67 and particularly '73 when Israel was very nearly defeated. US diplomats successfully guided the normalization of relations process between Israel and Egypt - a process that survived the assassination of Sadat. Jordan and Israel cooperate on a host of issues to include management of the Palestinians in the West Bank. The pending normalization of relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel would have been the latest chapter in that decades long effort.

That American balancing act is one reason hostages were so important to Hamas in the latest conflict. The collateral deaths of civilians would be problematic enough, but the hostages greatly increase the difficulty for the US in balancing its support for Israel as the IDF retaliates against Hamas. As Israeli hostage family members protest against Netanyahu, Israel too is finding is path to the destruction of Hamas very difficult as well.

 

[ActionBob]

Hamas started this war by killing innocent civilians. Why is it wrong for Isreal to retaliate in kind?

I don't see it as just the killing of innocent civilians... They did it as Monsters, not humans in a conflict. And they spread videos of their monstrous behavior. Did you see the young Israeli woman with the bloody pants.... Just what did they do to her? And then to desecrate the bodies of the dead, especially with the religious aspects. And can you imagine the hell the hostages have been taken to, especially those young women and even girls? Did you see the mother of a hostage saying how she'd rather her child be killed by an Israeli bomb than by Hamas?

No Israel will not retaliate in kind. I just cannot see the Israeli Army being the monsters that came accross their border that fateful morning. And I cannot see how Israel can leave Gaza without eliminating the threat of such monsters doing that again.

 

[BSO Dave]

So you believe Israel can finish Hamas by dropping bombs in Gaza or conducting ground operations?

Absolutely...! Any enemy can be defeated and even eradicated provided that the opposing force has the means which Israel does, and that they are 100% willing and committed to do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal... If Israel is committed to fighting this war with a "no holds barred" attitude, they can eradicate Hamas at least until Iran replaces them with new proxy terrorists.

Let's be realistic here, this is no different than us trying to finish Taliban in Afghanistan and we all know what happened.

Yes.. Let's be realistic and truly analyze what mistakes were made fighting in Afghanistan for 20 years. Every general that served said that no semblance of lasting victory or progress could be achieved while US forces were forced to fight with ridiculous rules of engagement in place. Our forces were never given adequate amounts of support needed for victory. They naively believed that they could defeat this kind of enemy by digging wells and building schools rather than by tearing them out root and stem.

The strategy of winning the hearts and minds of these kind of people was a tragic mistake. It failed in Vietnam, it failed in Afghanistan, and it is doomed to fail against any enemy that is indoctrinated from infancy to hate their enemies for their race... It has been correctly mentioned here many times that this is not a war about acquiring land, or resources. It's about one race committed to the eradication of another....PERIOD!

Therein lies the problem when you are fighting animals who have not evolved culturally for centuries and replicate like bugs. Radical Islamic ideology will always continue to be a plague on the West until the West collectively decides to get serious and fight evil with evil. I believe Israel is committed to that reality, and they can achieve it at least temporarily as long as other nations do not obstruct or interfere.

 

[Brent in Az]

 

[mark-hunter]

I for one carry as concealed as possible, I don’t want to be the first person shot if some nut job comes to a place I’m in, I want to be the last person to shoot and only stop when the crazy is down or gone.

I would do, same if I would had CCW.

But, in practical terms not carrying visible, goes like this:

Hunters have "to own and to carry" license. (as opposed to "to own license") as two different firearm licensing types at my place..

So, if someone for example shoulders the hunting rifle on the sling, and say start walking with rifle on the shoulder to his hunting area alongside the road, he will start following scenario.

Most probably, the first "concerned" citizen would report this to police.
Next what would happen he will be surrounded by SWAT within minutes, and hunting rifle confiscated together with all his guns at home, a day later.

He wouldn't make half mile walking alongside the road with rifle, in most cases, after first few cars pass by and notice a person walking with the rifle.
That is the implementation.

So, hunting license "to own and to carry" means, loaded rifle on shoulder only during the hunt, in his hunting area for which he has hunting permit. Transport to hunting area (or to the range, or to the gunsmith), in the bag or suitcase, empty, separated from ammo. For this license an EU firearms pass will be issued on request

Self defense license, "to own and to carry" means carrying concealed in urban and other areas. Rarely issued, special cases. No EU pass for this.

Self defense license ("to own" ) means keeping gun at home, plus travelling to range or gunsmith, empty, in the bag or suitcase separated from ammo. More frequently issued, type of license. no EU pass for this.

Sport shooting license ("To own", only option), means transport empty gun, in a bag, or suitcase, separated from ammo, in car trunk, from home to the range, and back, or from home to the gunsmith and back. For this license EU pass will be issued.

Collectors license means. keep guns locked at home, transport empty in bags or suitcases to gunsmith or exhibitions, and not allowed to have ammo for them. No EU pass (to my knowledge)

majority of European legal gun owners live by these rules.
there are some differences from country to country, but not too much.

 

[Doug3006]

The various “solutions” to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict all seem to fall short. Peace in that part of the world has been sought by multiple civilizations over the centuries with nothing like a lasting peace ever obtained. That’s because there is no solution.

The Levant (Israel, the Palestinian Territory, Syria, and Lebanon) is arguably the bloodiest region on the planet. It has been that way since pre-biblical times. It’s a testament to our unlimited hubris that we think we know the solution. A 2-state arrangement is the latest pipe dream being touted as “the solution.” It won’t work for the reasons I described in an earlier post.

So long as Jews live in the same area as Palestinians there will be conflict. The Jews have a long historical claim to Israel. So do the Palestinians. I believe the phrase “wars and rumors of wars” is apt.

 

[Doubleplay]

I would do, same if I would had CCW.

But, in practical terms not carrying visible, goes like this:

Hunters have "to own and to carry" license. (as opposed to "to own license") as two different firearm licensing types at my place..

So, if someone for example shoulders the hunting rifle on the sling, and say start walking with rifle on the shoulder to his hunting area alongside the road, he will start following scenario.

Most probably, the first "concerned" citizen would report this to police.
Next what would happen he will be surrounded by SWAT within minutes, and hunting rifle confiscated together with all his guns at home, a day later.

He wouldn't make half mile walking alongside the road with rifle, in most cases, after first few cars pass by and notice a person walking with the rifle.
That is the implementation.

So, hunting license "to own and to carry" means, loaded rifle on shoulder only during the hunt, in his hunting area for which he has hunting permit. Transport to hunting area (or to the range, or to the gunsmith), in the bag or suitcase, empty, separated from ammo. For this license an EU firearms pass will be issued on request

Self defense license, "to own and to carry" means carrying concealed in urban and other areas. Rarely issued, special cases. No EU pass for this.

Self defense license ("to own" ) means keeping gun at home, plus travelling to range or gunsmith, empty, in the bag or suitcase separated from ammo. More frequently issued, type of license. no EU pass for this.

Sport shooting license ("To own", only option), means transport empty gun, in a bag, or suitcase, separated from ammo, in car trunk, from home to the range, and back, or from home to the gunsmith and back. For this license EU pass will be issued.

Collectors license means. keep guns locked at home, transport empty in bags or suitcases to gunsmith or exhibitions, and not allowed to have ammo for them. No EU pass (to my knowledge)

majority of European legal gun owners live by these rules.
there are some differences from country to country, but not too much.

I wonder if majority of gun owners in Europe are content with the their gun laws?
The ones I talked to seems to have mixed feelings...

 

[Brent in Az]

I wholeheartedly agree. The Democrats are America's version of the Palestinians.

 

[mark-hunter]

I wonder if majority of gun owners in Europe are content with the their gun laws?
The ones I talked to seems to have mixed feelings...

No they are not.
But there are various lobistic organisations, pro gun as well, who are trying to improve the situation.
And various national associations of shooting or hunting, lobbying as well.
Sometimes we get some slack.

But again, as I said earlier, it is not disaster either.
I have no limit on ammo and guns to own (may differ in some countries), as long as they are registered. I can hunt, or shoot any sport i like (long range, bulls eye pistol, clay targets, muzzleloaders ipsc, idpa, issf etc), and I can own an ar15 or similar type rifle which puts us in top 10-15% of all countries in the world for legal gun owners.

Thats realistic assessment.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Get ready folks... WW3 is DEFINITELY going to happen.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Get ready folks... WW3 is DEFINITELY going to happen.

View attachment 566648

Well we are F*@%ed now!

 

[PARA45]

This is just butt ugly. I'll stick to my diesel Chevy 2500, thank you very much.

https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck

 

[Wheels]

An answer for Gaza, not the only one, but a possible one would be a huge and bold undertaking, on the scale of the Marshall plan:
1. Get rid of Hamas.
2. Instill a new order and thinking towards useful and productive life based upon prosperity.
3. Simultaneously start rebuilding physically including production centres and commerce.
4. Create a business system based upon cooperation with Israel, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
5. Create a very strong police force to keep things in check.

Yes I know, apple pie stuff, but I really don’t see an alternative other than perpetual conflict until the biblical prophesies are fulfilled.

At this point, does anyone really care enough to do any of these things.

The Palestinians of Gaza have turned down these options multiple times. The Arab States are tired of the Palestinians. The Israelis are tired of the Palestinians. The EU is tired of the Palestinians. America is tired of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians chose Hamas. The Palestinians chose to live like this instead of developing their own beachfront resorts, power plants, water plants, light industry, etc. The money was there and given to the Palestinians. Instead they spent the money on rockets, tunnels and corruption so their leaders could live lavishly outside of Gaza.

At this point does anyone care other than Palestinians who have left for first world countries, or Muslims who have moved to first world countries.

 

[Wheels]

Something to keep in mind that I haven't seen posted here. There are around 500-600 American's in Gaza. This is in addition to the 20-30 abducted in Israel and taken to Gaza.

Hamas will not allow any of this group to leave Gaza. They are basically hostages and negotiating pawns.

 

[Brent in Az]