Politics

[Red Leg]

It does seem far-fetched that Wagner Group would actually take Moscow, but on the remote chance that they did, would this be the first time a private corporation staged a successful coup in a sovereign nation?

Technically I suppose. However, I don't think corporation is the right analogy. Prigozhin is a warlord with a personal army loyal to him. That is a model that appears often in history.

 

[cash_tx]

Technically I suppose. However, I don't think corporation is the right analogy. Prigozhin is a warlord with a personal army loyal to him. That is a model that appears often in history.

Good point. I was thinking of a corporation in the American sense, which is probably not a good analogy.

 

[JOHN GRENZ]

 

[Red Leg]

Steiff's latest update from Redstate. The analogy to the mutiny of the French military in Algeria led by the 1st Foreign Legion Parachute Regiment, in April 1961 is an interesting one. A difference is that Wagner has strait forward approach route to the capital and likely has 20-25 thousand troops available.

Putin Surfaces With Speech on the Coup Attempt, Prigozhin Responds, and Has Anyone Seen Victoria Nuland?

Putin's response to Wagner Group's coup attempt is more likely to hurt than help him.

redstate.com

 

[Brent in Az]

If it wasnt for the fact that Putin is crazy enough to use nukes, it would be a good time for European countries to join forces, and attack Russia's weakness.

 

[Red Leg]

This perspective was offered in 2021 by a former Russian member of parliament and now dissident Alexander Glebovich Nevzorov. It would seem Prigozhin took his observations to heart.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/14hvk2x

 

[bowjijohn]

I struggled through Putins speech

Though much is lost in translation, to me he didn’t look like the firebrand itching to get to grips with an upstart uprising

The transition ticker tape at the bottom of the tv screen could have been replaced with a single line summary

“Beam me up Scottie”

There are no good guys and bad guys in this scenario

Just a long line of monsters vying for their turn at 15 mins of tyranny

I trust Ukraine has a plan to capitalise on this brief opportunity

However- the world tonight is in a very much more dangerous place than it was yesterday

 

[Red Leg]

I struggled through Putins speech

Though much is lost in translation, to me he didn’t look like the firebrand itching to get to grips with an upstart uprising

The transition ticker tape at the bottom of the tv screen could have been replaced with a single line summary

“Beam me up Scottie”

There are no good guys and bad guys in this scenario

Just a long line of monsters vying for their turn at 15 mins of tyranny

I trust Ukraine has a plan to capitalise on this brief opportunity

However- the world tonight is in a very much more dangerous place than it was yesterday

His focus on 1917 was particularly astonishing to me. I wonder if he even realizes he is portraying himself as the Tsar?

 

[Foxi]

"Prigozhin is a warlord with a personal army loyal to him. That is a model that appears often in history."

He will suffer the same fate as Rhöm and his SA.
Hitler's SS (under Sepp Dietrich) had his claims to power immediately vaporised (1934)

Prigozhin has no chance against the Red Army and KGB troops.
But the splitting will work accordingly.
The only problem will be that nothing better will follow.


"Definitely interesting times".
you have it good, you are all far away

 

[BSO Dave]

As usual. we'll simply disagree. Clearly also with regard to what constitutes "bullshit." Your choice of words, not mine. And because, as usual, there is apparently no ground for common discussion, I am delighted to move on.

The bullshit I'm referring to is your repeated assertions that any election fraud & tampering in this country is so rare and insignificant that it did not affect the outcome of 2020 election. The truth is we will never know for certain because of the surplus of the political cowards that we have in this country.

In regard to common ground for further discussion, you are probably correct that we certainly don't seem to share the same prospectives even though I still believe we share the same values and aspirations for this country's future... With that said, it's difficult for me to respect or value much of what you have said since declaring on more than one occasion that if Trump becomes the 2024 republican nominee, you will not vote in the next general election... I realize that I may upset your fan club here, but that position makes you a hypocrite, and part of the problem and not the solution toward fixing the surplus of crises facing this country...

We can cry about republican failures all we like and chalk up the recent disappointments in the last 2 elections to the dems having a better ground game, which is true to some extent... However, despite dems taking advantage of post-Covid voting strategies, the fact is that several key republican defeats were directly due to conservative voters just not showing up to vote.. Can't blame the dems for that sad fact...

Of course, you are always right. It’s always your way or the highway on every subject due to your inside knowledge and painstaking investigations on the internet.

Well, why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and file a lawsuit if you know the truth?

LOL.. Whoa friend... Take it easy... On this particular subject, I actually have made "painstaking" investigations into alleged election fraud simply because I believe it is a very serious issue that truly predicates the foundation of this republic. It shocks and disappoints me that so many other so-called conservatives and patriots don't share the same concerns and healthy skepticism especially considering what we have all now learned about the facade of sanctity we all used to have in our federal institutions.

My assertions to you have nothing to do with me being right or wrong about anything...You were the one who dismissed the video in question as being "debunked"... I'm sorry if I offended you, but that assertion is in fact bullshit...

The only thing that was officially debunked in that video was the false claim that votes were smuggled into the counting room in suitcases. That was certainly not the case... However, that doesn't adequately address or explain why the votes were not counted as they arrived? The fact that the boxes sat in the middle of the floor for hours requiring workers to walk around them also contradicts the explanation offered by the precinct supervisor that they were inadvertently forgotten... Then, when they were indeed "remembered", why were they not counted then? Why then stored under a table and not counted until after the second call after 2am to resume the count?

I never claimed the video showed proof of fraud. All I said was common sense dictates that these explanations offered by the workers combined with video evidence does not adequately explain the events. Anybody with a lick of common sense should recognize something there didn't add up.. This, by the way, was pretty much the common theme throughout all of the allegations of tampering in all the swing states.

As a final thought, I realize that you are fond of playing the role of sidekick and echo chamber for Redleg, but don't be afraid to have an original thought of your own once in a while...

 

[BSO Dave]

 

[Major Bonkers]

Actually, the Russo-Japanese War (1904 - 1905) is probably a better analogy. This gave rise to the opera 'The Golden Cockerel', where the stupid Tsar Dodon (like 'dodo' - geddit?) brings about catastrophe by indulging in a vain war that brings about his own downfall. Prigozhin (the other testicle from the same scrotum), I see as the Lebedev character from 'The Idiot': a cringing cur to those above him, a bully to those below; always out for himself.

I would be very surprised if Prigozhin had not already squared the generals on the line of his advance. After all, his troops are 25,000-strong (at best), and without air power, and the Russian army is - roughly - 1 million strong, with another 2 million in reserve. Being of a rather cynical nature, I should suggest that Prigozhin's behaviour did not come as a surprise to either the Americans or the Chinese. By seizing cities, he precludes the opportunity to use bombing raids to attack his troops - it seems to be one thing to murder Ukrainians, quite another Russians.

An article in 'The Daily Telegraph' [linked, but it's behind a paywall] suggests that, being a mercenary, he has changed sides. Who can tell. At least he seems to have realised that continually bashing your head against a brick wall is unlikely to bring about a positive result (something that has been obvious since the initial assault on Kiev failed).

Other historical analogies might be the year of the five emperors, when the Praetorian Guard auctioned off the Roman Empire to the highest bidder; or Cortes' and Pizarro's assaults on (respectively) the Mayan and Incan empires (which were both, essentially, venture capitalist speculations - the best book on the subject, incidentally, is 'The History of the Conquest of Mexico' by Prescott).

 

[sestoppelman]

I was impressed with Senator Tim Scott’s town hall on Fox. In a general election, he would likely receive the votes of most of Trump’s followers and some black votes - probably enough to win? I also think Desantis could win but Scott would get more black votes.

I like Tim Scott. I didnt see much of when he was on the other night, but I did watch a lot of his entry into the race speech and one thing stands out that I think will turn off many voters.

Mind you I would vote for him if he is our nominee.
What might not help him is his penchant for wandering around stage sounding like a televangelist.
I think most Americans today dont want a preacher in the WH.

 

[wesheltonj]

I read where Putin is still in Moscow but his personal plane has left the city.

 

[sestoppelman]

Anyone interested in looking at how election fraud works should take a look at Washington states Governors races when Demtard Christine Gregoire won two terms.
The fraud was obvious.
Washington state hasnt had a Republican Gov since the 80's!

 

[mark-hunter]

If the army and FSB remain loyal to Putin, this almost certainly will end up being a Quixotic gesture on Prigozhin's part. He simply does not have adequate combat power to fight a battle to seize Moscow. The air force seems to be loyal and is carrying out airstrikes against the Wagner column moving toward the capital. Nevertheless, they have made rapid progress. That speed probably underscores just how few reserves remain available to the Russian army as a result of their huge losses in Ukraine.

Cuban revolution was started with less then 20 men on the beach, after being decimated by Batista army.

Indeed whatever Prighozin has in mind, he must be aware of discrepancy of numbers of his and Putin Forces. Most probably he has something else in mind. I cannot imagine Prighozin as quixotic person, more as opportunistic character.

Historical analogy, of this - up - till - now - unthinkable event, could be Julius Caesars crossing the Rubicon, year 49 BC..

Whatever is the case, we will now soon.

This can also be a prelude to full mobilization of Russian army.

 

[Brent in Az]

A media story just mentioned that a successful rebellion could put nukes in the hands of the Wagner group........

 

[sestoppelman]

Just reported but not verified on FOX that Wagner boss has ordered a halt to the advance on Moscow.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Just reported but not verified on FOX that Wagner boss has ordered a halt to the advance on Moscow.

Russian and Ukrainian telegram channels are reporting the same thing. What a Bizarre turn of events.

 

[VertigoBE]

Future historian’s will have a field day trying to understand the thinking today.