PHASA distances itself from Captive-bred Lion Hunting

[Wheels]

I thought I was making up a word too!

Talk about a blind squirrel finding a nut

I thought the quote was "Even an old boar finds a sow in heat occasionally", but wait, would that be another insinuendo? nah!

Be like Wayne........you better get started working on your accent there eh?

That may be tough since it is obvious I don't even know the language.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Ok, the pair of you Muppets. FOCUS!

Sahwee!

 

[Royal27]

I feel guilty for starting the hijack.... nah....

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

This is constructive:
In terms of breeding-
-human imprinting/domestication
-breeding conditions
-number of breeding operations

In terms of hunting
-wilding periods
-size of land
-limited CITES quota
-hunt duration
-hunting method

I will have a response from SAPA by January third and could shed some more light early next week.

We can thrash this around for now.
Brickburn see if you could add points you too Marius and all...

My best always

 

[Hank2211]

The s is constructive:
In terms of breeding-
-human imprinting/domestication
-breeding conditions
-number of breeding operations

In terms of hunting
-wilding periods
-size of land
-limited CITES quota
-hunt duration
-hunting method

I will halve a response from SAPA by January third and could shed some more light early next week.

We can thrash this around for now.
Brickburn see if you could add points you too Marius and all...

My best always

Jaco, this is exactly what I was getting at when I said that PHASA might look at setting reasonable rules and then getting government help with enforcement. It takes someone with more intimate knowledge of the industry than I or most non-PHs/outfitters have, and your list shows what could and likely should be done.

The one area I think we have to be careful is the issue of fences. Without fences, of course, there is no captive-bred lion hunting industry at all. My concern has always been that if we say it is inappropriate to hunt lions behind fences, then how can we morally/ethically say it is acceptable to hunt other animals behind fences? The forces aligned against us would quickly seize upon that discrepancy and then most of the RSA hunting model and much of the Namibia hunting models would go out the window (and we know what these models have done for wildlife numbers and conservation). And note that in many parts of the USA, hunting big game behind fences is considered both common and ethical (it is illegal in most of Canada for big game). So it is not the existence of the fence which should be the issue, but the size of the fenced area.

Thank you for this. I hope the those involved in the captive-bred lion hunting industry will see that their interests are actually aligned with ours, in making this more acceptable to the majority of non-hunters.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Since I am feeling lazy and am not searching this computer (mine) for the info I am just going to ask.

What are the rules right now?
Release, property size, etc.


(I know the first Standards set out by the Government created a Tornado and law suits from SAPA or owners.)

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Release period NORTH WEST ..... 96 hours... I'm being serious.
Property size 1000ha being serious again.

Hank221 PHASA had been working with SAPA for two years as karoowild also mentioned but little to no headway had been made.

Problem lies in this, SAPA is a breeders accosiation but many of they're members are the landowners on which the lions are shot, they want turn over 2 days in next one(client) standing in line to come in its become a big money spinner....

The issue is not fences, size of land, wilding period, conditions under which the hunt and breeding takes place, these are the issues at hand that needs serious attention,

I know, of a landowner that has actually provided lion with a calming substance to get the hunters (ph and client) out of the field because the follow up client is on the way.

They only discovered this later by Freudian slip.

Now that's horse manure!

It's no secret in SA if you want to make quick money there is no better way to do it than with a lion and it only takes a day or two mostly.

My best always

 

[enysse]

Unfortunately it's always about the money. You wish people could run a honest business.......without screwing around behind the clients back.

 

[Mekaniks]

Man, this thread has been a real learning experience for me....I guess keeping my mouth shut and listening (or reading) pays off sometimes

 

[enysse]

Over my life I have not cared what the anti's said and just blown them off. That view point has changed in the last few years. Not because I care or respect their opinion but due to the influence they have on the general public.

The problem is the anti's have their influence in everything. And the celebrities and national media have a major influence on other weak minded people, which spreads like a wildfire without control.
We don't have Charlton Heston like actors fighting for us anymore.

 

[petrusg]

What are the rules right now?
Release, property size, etc.

If I recall from the AGM:
SCI's stance is 30 days with a minimum of 1000ha

SAPA only has 12 lion farmers / breeders who conform to standards (out of 200 odd)

US representatives at the AGM were pretty certain that US Wildlife and Fisheries will be imposing a ban on Lion product imports early in 2016. Proof will need to be provided on how the lion hunt has benefited the wild lions (something to that effect).

Some of the reasons coming out of the workshops where that, modern urbanisation is forcing people out of nature and into city style lives. Distancing them from nature and associating wild animals like pets as they have no interaction to any animals other than pets and zoos.

People are no longer custom to seeing animals being harvested for food or the management behind wildlife and maintaining a healthy breeding stock.

The online / virtual world they live in creates a social media frenzy when they state their opinions on emotions instead of facts.

The increase on vegans/vegetarians also does not help anything either...!

 

[petrusg]

Coming back to the point of modern urbanisation forcing people out of nature and into city style lives - if you have not seen this... OMG!!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1598671946822525

Regards,
Adriaan

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Adriaan, current law stipulates 96 hours in north west and a 1000 ha.
With SCI NOT being a regulatory body, neither is PHASA, the roaming as you mentioned above where just thoughts, which is good to have on the table.
I believe SCI's suggestion is not stringent enough, I would be looking at minimum 20 000 acres, 6 months wilding period.
This will entail 4 - 8 areas in North west of adequate size obtaining a set quota per anum stipulated and strictly controlled by natcon.
Yes prices will go up, but it'll clean up the septic sest pool which is the current lion industry in SA.
The above just a though (ambitious possibly but a thought none the less)
My best always

 

[petrusg]

Thanx Jaco, spot on.

I should have added that SCI stance is on getting the trophy in their record book.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Adriaan, current law stipulates 96 hours in north west and a 1000 ha.
With SCI NOT being a regulatory body, neither is PHASA, the roaming as you mentioned above where just thoughts, which is good to have on the table.
I believe SCI's suggestion is not stringent enough, I would be looking at minimum 20 000 acres, 6 months wilding period.
This will entail 4 - 8 areas in North west of adequate size obtaining a set quota per anum stipulated and strictly controlled by natcon.
Yes prices will go up, but it'll clean up the septic sest pool which is the current lion industry in SA.
The above just a though (ambitious possibly but a thought none the less)
My best always

Nice idea Jaco. The problem I see, with only 4-8 areas, would be that there won't be enough areas to meet the demand. Like you mentioned in a previous post, if we try and get away from the "3-day hunt" scenario, we will have too many hunters wanting to hunt a lion, with not enough areas to house them on over let's say a 10 day hunt. This is accepting that only 1 hunter will occupy the area for the hunt. I think there is certainly substance to that suggestion.
Alternatively, we can just say, Screw it, those are the 4-8 accredited areas, so many "hunting days" are available per year, first come first serve, but like you say, then I can see a formidable price increase.

A wilding period of 6 months seems fair, but who will carry the losses for the plains game animals hunted by these cats during those 6 months? Maybe better use can be put to the "Red-Line" meat to feed these cats? Just an idea.

 

[spike.t]

Coming back to the point of modern urbanisation forcing people out of nature and into city style lives - if you have not seen this... OMG!!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1598671946822525

Regards,
Adriaan

i was born in England but havent lived there since i was 2 years old, and Adriaan has added another reason why i think the country is fkd..................

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Nice idea Jaco. The problem I see, with only 4-8 areas, would be that there won't be enough areas to meet the demand. Like you mentioned in a previous post, if we try and get away from the "3-day hunt" scenario, we will have too many hunters wanting to hunt a lion, with not enough areas to house them on over let's say a 10 day hunt. This is accepting that only 1 hunter will occupy the area for the hunt. I think there is certainly substance to that suggestion.
Alternatively, we can just say, Screw it, those are the 4-8 accredited areas, so many "hunting days" are available per year, first come first serve, but like you say, then I can see a formidable price increase.

A wilding period of 6 months seems fair, but who will carry the losses for the plains game animals hunted by these cats during those 6 months? Maybe better use can be put to the "Red-Line" meat to feed these cats? Just an idea.

All valid points surely if you want to make the money as the lion area owner you should carry the loss, if not a total closure I must admit I see a set quota on the horizon, the days of 700 lion being exported are over (regardless of the member vote just passed)

In honesty as suggested above 100 lion a year is not that far off, but just throwing ideas around.

My best always
Ps what's your number Marius mine is 079 500 1941

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

All valid points surely if you want to make the money as the lion area owner you should carry the loss, if not a total closure I must admit I see a set quota on the horizon, the days of 700 lion being exported are over (regardless of the member vote just passed)

In honesty as suggested above 100 lion a year is not that far off, but just throwing ideas around.

My best always
Ps what's your number Marius mine is 079 500 1941

No wonder I could not get a hold of you. Not the same number I have.
0828205387

 

[Royal27]

I had the same thoughts as Marius on prices going up significantly, although I agree that Jaco's idea is sure better than shutting down everything.

Any idea what the economics would be? Obviously a longer hunt would be required than now, and it would take more than the .5 day average it seems to take now to make the kill, which would reduce opportunity for other profit to be made through other animals. Not to mention increased costs for less hunts.

Not does it take into consideration that prices could do up even more due to the demand restriction.

Thoughts?

I'm the first to admit I don't know enough about the economics to guess.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Not does it take into consideration that prices could do up even more due to the demand restriction.

Thoughts?

Royal, if the registered breeder made $1M per year from selling 100 Lions, he's going to be trying to get as close to $1M for the year, by only selling 20 Lions under the new laws.